PT Who has more knowledge of the force, Yoda or Qui-Gon?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Teaviex Cue, Mar 4, 2013.

?

who?

Yoda 32 vote(s) 65.3%
Qui-Gon 14 vote(s) 28.6%
Equal 3 vote(s) 6.1%
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  1. DARTH_small_paw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Qui-Gon Jinn by a mile. And here's why...

    Throughout the PT Yoda proved to be blind and dogmatic on many an occasion. For one thing when a prophesied Chosen Force user comes into the Jedi order shouldn't that individual warrant a little more attention than he was given. All of Anakin's warning signs were there and yet there was little to no reaching out by Yoda or the rest of the council (save for Obi-Wan). When Anakin does come to Yoda seeking advice on how to respond to his nightmare Yoda comes back with vague generic "let go of all you fear to lose" and "the shadow of greed". Now when the Chosen One comes to you talking about nightmares of losing someone close to you (which based on any amount of observation throughout the Clone Wars you would have to know is Padme) shouldn't your response be a little more tailored than just the first page of the "how to be a Jedi" pamphlet. "Dark side clouds everything" or not, Yoda was more willing to believe in idealistic and unrealistic tradition than in a logical interpretation of all the evidence surrounding him. Jedi like Pong Krell and Barriss Offee were succumbing to the quick and easy path. Why would Yoda not see that Anakin, who from day 1 had attachment issues due to his late introduction to the Jedi path, might be vulnerable to Dark Side influence. Especially when he has a close relationship to Palpatine who the Jedi council are suspicious of for his cunning political tactics. It was not until his self-exile on Dagobah (20+ years of reflection on just what went wrong) that Yoda gained his sage wisdom that we attribute retroactively to his character in the Prequel Trilogy. And during that time he communed with Qui Gon who had a history of questioning the council and being a more bohemian Jedi. His unique approach to the Force is probably what the unstable Chosen One would have needed. Lastly Qui Gon proved himself to be the Jedi with the most understanding of the living force as it was he who broke the barrier and could commune with the living after death.
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  2. Jedi_Apprentice Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 3
    Yoda has more knowledge of the overall Force. However, in the PT, he relies on what he learned in the past in order to gauge the future. Qui-Gon's approach to the Force was more of a furthering of what he already knew by being mindful of the present and examining its implications for the future. Qui-Gon was more of an evolved Jedi than Yoda. And while Qui-Gon did learn the path to immortality, Yoda furthered this concept by learning how to manifest as a Force ghost rather than just a consciousness within the Force.
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  3. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    QG all the way. QG was the person who found the chosen one. He also discovered how to become a ghost.

    What did Yoda do? He fought Sidious to a draw and gave off unhelpful advice. And ... that's it.
  4. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    What did Yoda do? He fought Sidious to a draw and gave off unhelpful advice. And ... that's it.
    ----------

    [face_laugh]
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  5. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Don't forget Yoda trained the very last Jedi, Luke Skywalker just before he died.
  6. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    While that is true, QG also taught a Jedi.
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Technically, Qui-Gon was also a Force ghost, just not a visible one.
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  8. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    Nine hundred years of training Jedi and honing his skills are disregarded because Qui-Gon found the Chosen one and learned how to become a Force ghost. I cannot agree with this. Qui-Gon would not have survived a fight with Sidious. I will say that Qui-Gon was wise, but his discoveries simple do not wipe out Yoda's years of experience.
  9. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Age doesn't equal wisdom. Having trained more years doesn't necessarily result in superior ability either.

    QG, through his unique way of viewing the force and being in-tune with it learned to do what others before him couldn't. That, plus him finding the chosen one is remarkable.

    So this is about power? I thought the discussion was centered on who had more knowledge. Btw. it is Yoda who told us wars don't make one great. Fighting prowess isn't that important to a Jedi.

    Again the ageism.
  10. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    It has nothing to do with power. As one becomes more knowledgeable of the Force they may become more powerful. I think Yoda's knowledge and experience allowed him to fight Sidious to a draw. It is not ageism, it is a fact, 900 years of studying the Force cannot be discounted by one event. Qui-Gon's contribution was significant and I do understand your perception of the question. Sure, Qui-Gon discovered an aspect of the Force that Yoda did not know about. However, to say that Qui-Gon knows more about the Force than Yoda suggests that at the time of his Force ghost discovery he already knew everything that Yoda knows about the Force. This strains credulity given Yoda's centuries of experience.
  11. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Experience only results in wisdom if one analyses events and draws conclusions for the future. Yoda however seemed very set in his ways. He was unable to give Anakin proper counsel and he was unable to understand that Luke had to go to Bespin.
    Aging doesn't automatically make you great, only old. It's quite probable that after some time Yoda simply stopped learning and was content with what he already knew.

    No, knowledge in the force =! fighting prowess. Yoda himself said "Wars don't make one great" and that's just how it is for Jedi. Being a good fighter is a good thing but it is far from most important. Anakin Skywalker was a great fighter but a failure as a Jedi.
    Its the Sith who care all about power and might, not the Jedi.
  12. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    When Yoda stated that war does not make one great he was referring to Luke's comment that he was seeking a great warrior. Yoda was simply acknowledging that there are more avenues to greatness than battle. You seem preoccupied on my statement regarding fighting prowess and knowledge of the Force. Often, both have been synonymous, but I will acknowledge that has not always been the case. We can agree to disagree on that point.

    The question in the thread asks who has more knowledge of the Force. In my view, Qui-Gon has more knowledge, only if he and Yoda had equal knowledge of the Force prior to Qui-Gon's discovery. I simply do not believe that argument can be successfully made. Sure, Yoda acknowledged to Qui-Gon that he had been too rigid and strict. He was inflexible on many points. However, I do not see how that is proof that Qui-Gon possesses more overall knowledge of the Force. If you are suggesting that Qui-Gon was more attuned to the Force during the events leading up to TPM, then that is a more plausible statement.
  13. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Attunement in the force stems from understanding the force. Understanding the force means having great insight into its workings. If QG is more attuned to the force he has automatically more intrinsic understanding of it than Yoda.

    Plus in the movies Yoda doesn't have many lines which really speak of his wisdom. Wars don't make one great is one of the very few.

    So far you have said Yoda is knowledgeable because of two things:
    Better fighter
    Older
    That's not very convincing. Sorry.
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  14. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    Being attuned can be temporal in nature. In life we are constantly adjusting or becoming more attuned to situations. Being more attuned at a particular time does not automatically translate to intrinsic understanding in a global sense, only at that time and situation. At the time of the Phantom Menace the Jedi Council was worried about how clouded things are to them. They were closed minded and failed to adjust to the situation. Had they been more open minded they may have detected and traveled along the line of thought that lead to the discovery of Force ghosts.
    I agree that by the events of TPM Qui-Gon was more attuned to the Force, because he was thinking outside the box. At that time, he may have had more understanding of the situation and the Force than Yoda. However, I do not believe reasonable people will say that Yoda has less overall knowledge of the Force. I will acknowledge that being old does not always translate into more wisdom. However, more often than not, it does translate into more wisdom. I do not believe that Yoda's rise to Grand Master was simply because he outlived everybody. I think it has to do with his overall knowledge of the Force. I choose to believe that there are aspects of the Force that Yoda knew that Qui-Gon did not know. I did not say that Yoda has more knowledge because he is a better fighter. I said that being a better fighter often overlaps with knowledge in the Force.
    I think those on this thread who believe that Yoda has more knowledge are thinking in a global sense. Although, I believe that Yoda has more overall knowledge, he was not infallible and still had some things to learn. I suspect that Qui-Gon also had more to learn about the Force.
  15. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I'm going by what is in the movies. In those movies QG only appears in one, TPM. In that movie he is more attuned to the force and wiser than Yoda. This "snapshot" is supposed to give us, the audience, a good impression of the character (because that is how story works). Therefore it is okay to assume he is approximately as wise generally as shown on screen.

    What you are going by here is totally hypothetical. Something about how Yoda should be more wise because he is Grandmaster. But that argument is flawed. A position of authority is in real life most often gained through political machinations and we've even seen some of those machinations taking place in the OJO. Additionally, the entire ensemble of the jedi council has repeatedly been shown to act extremely foolish and decidedly unwise. The title of grand master may very well be worth nothing.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Mar 23, 2013
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  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yoda as seen in the PT is essentially a fool. Every move he makes is wrong.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Except for this one...
    [IMG]
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  18. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    We will agree to disagree. I think most people who answered Yoda in this thread are basing there answers on information beyond the movies. Using the Prequels as the sole source of evidence for Yoda's knowledge is like starting a football game already down by three touchdowns. Yoda's actions in the prequels are clearly not his best moments. I wager that most who believe that Yoda has the most overall knowledge are recalling other sources. While I am not a huge fan of the EU, I have seen enough to agree with all who say Yoda has the most overall knowledge of the Force.
  19. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Using the EU to discuss character here is always problematic because often the EU-interpretation is very different from the movie-version. Take Anakin for instance. In comics he is a tough as nails badass, in TCW he is a lively hero, in PT he is a whining emo teen. So, which one is the real "Anakin"? Not easy to answer.

    Must admit I didn't read many Yoda novels because I was never a fan of the character (I don't dislike him but I don't care for him much either).
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  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    And that is why I do not mix and match between the EU and the film saga. I enjoy TCW cartoon, but I let it exist on it's own. The same with any other EU. They are separate entities.

    The fact that Lucas prefers to market it all together does not influence me.
  21. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    Darth_Pevra and Capt. Tom Coughlin, I agree that when we mix the EU and the movies we can confuse the issue. In fact, I think on other threads all of us have expressed similar sentiments about the EU.
  22. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    Yoda was more wiser but Qui-Gon was more intelligent. Yoda knew most of the stuff that a Jedi can know, but I think that he was limited on the Jedi dogma and couldn't see out of the box. Qui-Gon was more out of the rules, and probably that was the reason why he could have done what he did.
  23. Master Elaine Nega Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2013
    star 1
    I really don' t know. On the one hand obviously Yoda, on the other hand who teaches who in the end of ROTS. I guess it' s all about the character killing thing. Many authors do the same mistake: kill characters with potential before they can really shine in the watchers' eyes. But on the other hand, if they kept Jinn alive, it would be really hard to link PT and OT.
  24. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 2
    Prequel Yoda had an immense knowledge of the Force and was the wisest member on the Jedi Council, but his vision was clouded and limited by the corrupt government that he had pledged himself to. Once Order 66 came into effect and the Clone Wars came to an end in Revenge of the Sith, Yoda (along with Obi-Wan) was able to escape and separate himself from some of the old philosophies that had ultimately led to the downfall of the Jedi Order. From this tragedy Yoda learned a great deal more about the Force and his role as a Jedi; going into hiding on Dagobah and learning more than he had ever experienced in his time on the Council the infinitely more wise Yoda was able to preserve the true nature of the Force in order to one day pass this knowledge down to Luke Skywalker, the one Jedi who stood a chance at defeating Darth Vader and the Emperor, in The Empire Strikes Back.

    Qui-Gon Jinn is an entirely different story. While even in life Yoda could be viewed as being 'one with the Force', Qui-Gon was much less willing to conform to every single rule that the Council enforced and found that he was able to separate himself from the corruption in the senate. While Qui-Gon surely wouldn't have led the Separatist movement like his political-idealist master Count Dooku or become consumed by the Dark Side like Anakin Skywalker, he still maintained a bit of a rebellious attitude that, ultimately, served to benefit him in the end. By distancing himself from the horrors that the other Jedi had allowed themselves to become blind to and living by a code that kept his thoughts 'here and now' Qui-Gon was ultimately able to achieve a power that no Jedi before him had ever come across.

    Both Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn were very great Jedi up until (and after) their deaths. They both lived by slightly different codes, but they both fought for and protected the same ideals and were able to fulfill their roles as mentors who trained some of the most important Jedi in the galaxy and broadened and expanded the knowledge and power of the Force much farther than any simple-minded being would have you believe. While Yoda and the other Jedi were manipulated and misguided up until and throughout the Clone Wars, the tiny Jedi's immense failure was ultimately rectified as he played a pivotal role in helping the Skywalkers bring balance to the Force. Both Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn were wise beyond belief and possessed great knowledge and handling of the Force; to put one above the other would be a disservice to the opposite Jedi.
  25. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Qui Gon should have been Mace Windu. Nuff said.
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