Saga Who Is the greatest lightsaber practitioner in the Star Wars saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Polydroxol, Jan 31, 2014.

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  1. Polydroxol Jedi Master

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    Guidelines: Hypothetically, each duelist, (anyone who participates in a lightsaber vs lightsaber duel during the Star Wars saga) faces off against each other duelist, three times per opponent. Who would have the most total victories? Age of duel would be that of the duelist's youngest appearance in the saga for everyone except, Anakin Skywalker, would be that from Revenge of the Sith, Luke Skywalker, would be that from Return of the Jedi, As well as Obi-Wan Kenobi, would be that from Revenge of the Sith.
  2. Zinnzade Jedi Master

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    Anakin Skywalker, if it's pure lightsaber dueling skills.
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  3. skyrimcat9416 Jedi Master

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  4. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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  5. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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  6. Pearlsaber Jedi Grand Master

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    It's between Dooku or Mace.

    Obviously, Dooku wasn't the strongest force user. But, he was one of the purest duelists that there was.

    The whole Mace/Palpy duel is widely debated, but I'm of the camp that says Mace could have killed him if it wasn't for Anakin's interference.
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  7. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    So many variables at play in the duels that it's impossible to say with certainty. I say Mace for the following reasons:

    1. The line "As wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu" Indicates Yoda is the wisest and Mace the most powerful.

    2. Mitigating circumstances aside, Sidious bests Yoda, but Mace bests Sidious (with a lightsabre) Therefore Mace > Yoda.

    3. Dooku makes short work of Anakin and Obiwan in AOTC but is overpowered by Anakin in ROTS. And yet, Obiwan defeats Anakin on Mustafar. Conclusion: Anakin, Obiwan and Dooku are an 'on the day' line up, if I may use a sporting analogy.
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  8. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    I disagree, Yak. I think Palps was merely playing to Anakin's ego.
  9. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    When he defeats Dooku? Yes, there was certainly the possibility of his input there.
  10. EntechednReformatted Jedi Grand Master

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    Are you considering just lightsaber skills, or all Force powers?

    I'm of the opinion that all of the top names are roughly equivalent in pure lightsaber skill. Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, as well as Anakin and Obi-Wan (by Ep III) are all nearly flawless swordsmen. These guys are as good as it gets, and everyone else (Qui-Gon, Maul, the other Jedi Council members) are just the best of the rest, not up to the skill level of the truly elite swordsmen.

    When I say roughly equivalent I just mean that based on the duels we saw it seems clear to me that Obi-Wan's skills are on par with Anakin's, Anakin's skills are on par with Dooku's, Dooku's skills are on par with Yoda's, and Yoda's skills are on par with Sidious's. I think, to use Yak's line, that all five of these guys are "on the day" ... any one of them might be slightly better or worse than any other; you could argue that forever. But my point is that non of these guys is a LOT better than any of the others. I absolutely think Obi-Wan could have held his own in a lightsaber contest with Sidious. It was Sidious's other powers that Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to cope with. ("OMG he's throwing the Senate at me!")

    I hear you all asking "What about Mace?" I think evaluating Mace is slightly problematic. There are reasons to at least suspect that Sidious was holding back in his battle with Mace. If Sidious could afford to do that, that might suggest that Mace is actually in the "Best of the Rest" category. Then again, the fact that he was entrusted with the task of arresting Dooku's master tends to argue that Mace is at least considered by his peers to be at that elite level. But perhaps his peers are wrong. Or maybe we have to take the results of the Mace/Sidious duel at face value, despite our suspicions, and put Mace among the elites. To be honest, I keep going back and forth on it.
  11. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Well summarized.
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Feb 1, 2014
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  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    No one is considering poor ole' Luke?

    I'm beginning to doubt there was a "best". There are too many variables to consider. And not even "the best" is going to win every duel.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 1, 2014
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  13. Polydroxol Jedi Master

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    I agree this is definitely an inexact science because it is based solely on only a few duels. I guess how I would decide it is by the "consistency" and "versatility" and step away from the food chain which really runs out of gas after a few links. Take Obi-Wan and Anakin, they are both of about equal skill, however, when both faced with a certain adversary Count Dooku, they are on completely different levels. I think even if Obi-Wan had a slight advantage over Anakin in 60 percent of their duels, his possesion of a krptonite-like weakness against the likes of Dooku make him a less consistent, complete, and versatile fighter. This in my eyes, would make him the inferior overall practitioner.

    I think this applies for a lot of other duelists as well. For example, I believe young Darth Maul could defeat Count Dooku. I do not think this because he knew more of, or possessed more skill in lightsaber combat, but simply because Maul's Juyo style would overpower Dooku's Phase II like Anakin's Phase V did. Yes, Dooku might have much greater skill and expertise in swinging a lightsaber than most others do, but only practicing a style with such a crippling vulnerability to Phase V or VII combat puts him down on my list. Now this theory does have some limits, if Kit Fisto is equally mediocre against everyone his consistency alone does not make him great. However, it is the same way for pure skill, it requires consistency against everyone without the big holes.
  14. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2013
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    Everyone, let's not forget that they all enhance their abilities to duel with the Force - particularly Yoda

    Without the added speed and reflex granted by the Force, it's pretty much a random toss-up
  15. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    If you go by Anakin & Obi-Wan's dialogue in AOTC, Yoda was regarded as the greatest at that time (despite Anakin's snotty response), but that's just Jedi - it doesn't take Sith Lords into account (with the exception of Dooku, who was a former Jedi).

    Then the OT can't really come into play - as GL himself said, the duels in the PT were designed to show the Jedi at their prime, as the only lightsaber fights we'd seen in the OT involved an old man, a relative cripple and a boy. The obvious implication being that PT-era lightsaber fighters were superior.

    In which case, it's either Yoda or Palps, and I don't think their duel in ROTS had a clear winner in terms of lightsaber skills. I'll give the title to Yoda - Dooku played dirty in AOTC by endangering other people as a distraction and then running off, Palpatine had to throw furniture at Yoda to gain an edge.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Feb 2, 2014
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  16. shoney Jedi Grand Master

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    It's Obi-Wan, look at what he did.
    1. Killed Darth Maul
    2. Killed General Grievous
    3. Trained the man who killed Dooku
    4. Defeated and almost killed Anakin
    Last edited by shoney, Feb 2, 2014
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  17. Kenobi098 Jedi Master

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    I gotta agree with EntechednReformatted. If you think about it each is the top guy in his particular Milieu, Anakin is strength personified when it comes to the physical power of his saber attacks, Dooku is style and precision, Obi-wan proves that while "offense wins games, defense wins championships", Windu is form from formlessness(I always think of his fighting style as the Jedi version Jeet Kun do) , Yoda is agility and Sidous is the one that incorporates other force techinques into his style the best.
    Last edited by Kenobi098, Feb 2, 2014
  18. EntechednReformatted Jedi Grand Master

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    I like that. I've always kind of struggled to try to describe Mace's style. Nick Gillard did a terrific job of giving each major character a distinctive style, but Mace's always seemed especially distinctive. Gillard described trying to choreograph fights so that when you broke them down and looked at each move, it was the only move that could be made. "A game of chess played at a thousand miles per hour, and every move is check." Mace seems like a guy who, when there's only one possible move, finds a different move. His style is unconventional for the sake of being unconventional; it forces his opponents to adapt to it and leave their own comfort zone.

    It's a fascinating choice for the character. Mace is the epitome of the sober, straight-laced Jedi. "A Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind." That could have been written on Windu's tombstone, if he had one. His choice of fighting style adds another shade to his personality: he's completely by-the-book in everything he does, right up until the lightsaber comes out.
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  19. Sarge Chosen One

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    I studied swordplay for years, and there's no doubt that some people are better at it than others. I know people who can kick my butt nine times out of ten, but no one is unbeatable. Every time I faced one of my betters, I worked my butt off to make it that tenth fight, the one that I would win. And sometimes it worked, about one time in ten.
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  20. Tornado Wrangler Jedi Master

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    If you go EU, then Jaina Solo is known as the "Sword of the Jedi", and is arguably the best.
    [IMG]
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  21. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 19, 2013
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    Probably one of the following:
    Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Sidious

    I'm no expert on Sword fighting, but Yoda's style seems much harder to beat than Mace's style. Yoda leaps around at a breakneck pace, jumping, spinning, and dealing effective attacks. Mace isn't as fast, but he seems to have more physical strength, which could be advantageous in a saber duel.
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  22. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Also to be considered are the actors. Some are young guys who spent months perfecting the techniques, some are older guys who didn't and some are CGI and stand ins. In my opinion the author's intent is that Yoda, Mace, Sidious and Dooku are the best in the PT, but the actor's physical talents don't necessarily reflect this.
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  23. May_The_Force_Be_With_You Jedi Master

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    I'm gonna have to exclude the EU which has over powered gods posing as Jedi (see Katarn, Starkiller, and Revan for examples).

    I know it seems biased because of my fanness of Obi-Wan - but my vote goes to him.

    - He trained Anakin and while people would say everything that is great in Anakin comes from his natural abilities. Possibly, but it is undeniable that some of his mastery of his lightsaber skills comes from his teacher - Obi-Wan.
    - As a padawan, he managed to defeat a Sith Lord (granted, it wasn't really his lightsaber skills that defeated Maul, but he kept up with Maul for a while in that department).
    - As a relatively young man, he ascended to the Jedi Council and eventually was part of Mace and Yoda's inner circle (I'm not sure how much lightsaber combat has to do with that, though).
    - He was a famed general of the Clone Wars (combat MUST have something to do with that).
    - He defeated Grievous - apparently no easy feat as he had killed many Jedi before Obi-Wan
    - He held up against Dooku for a while. (Yes - he lost both times, but I call BS on that. That was done solely to make Anakin look good. I get that Anakin is the hero and he needs to save the day and "defeat the villain" but I hate it was always at Obi-Wan's expense).
    - The other Jedi seem to have a high esteem for Obi-Wan. Even Dooku seems to kind of respect him to some degree. He seems to have this great reputation. Even Anakin says that Obi-Wan is as wise as Yoda and as powerful as Windu. I mean - that is some high praise from a guy that hates him.
    - Obi-Wan survived Order 66. Plus he and Yoda alone managed to mop up the remaining clones at the Jedi Temple.
    - Finally, he defeated Anakin, supposedly the greatest Jedi ever, in combat. I think if he had been with Mace to confront Sidious or Yoda to confront Sidious, he would have been the tipping point both needed to bring him down.

    Even when Obi-Wan died, it wasn't due to being defeated by a superior opponent. He let himself die to join with the Force and help Luke fulfill his destiny.

    Granted - lightsaber combatants don't seem to fall to a scale. Supposedly, Anakin is the best lightsaber combatant, but lost to Obi-Wan. Yet, he could beat Dooku who beat Obi-Wan. It seems to simply come down to circumstances. Some people argue that Yoda, in different circumstances, could have beaten the Emperor. So it really is up to just chance a lot of the times...
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  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    1. Lucky

    2. Not much competition

    3. Does not deserve the accolades - his former apprentice does

    4. Very lucky due to opponent's emotional state
  25. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm going with Darth Maul (yeah I know, big surprise). He took on two Jedi and they couldn't handle it. Everyone knows Maul was played by a real martial artist who left to his own devices would've took anybody out. Lucas punked out Maul. I hated the way he "died", basically cause Obi had to make it through the prequels.
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