Who is the Hero- Luke or Anakin?

"As far as I'm aware it didn't lay out one (and only one) path by which this objective could be achieved."

Actually, I'm with you on this one. I believe Anakin did stray from his first path, and Luke and Leia were needed to bring him back. I don't think the Force wanted him to get rid of the entire Jedi order. Like you, I don't think destiny is the end-all be-all determinant of a character's behavior. With this in mind, it does give more weight to Anakin's agony at the end of ROTJ, when he comes to the realization that he really screwed the pooch. Anakin was supposed to be the "hero", and came up short. His children put him back on track.

"Anakin did what he did to ensure the galaxy remained under the total control of a single dictator"

Yes, but he was deliberately misinformed by Palpatine, and felt alienated by (and will probably be ostracized from) the Jedi Order. Palpatine took Anakin "under his wing" some time ago, based on some of his comments about how the Senate should be run, and the commentary stating that we will hear some parallels between Palpatine's and Anakin's comments in Ep.III. For lack of a better word, Anakin was brain-washed.

For a recent example, think of the boy who was hanging out with the East-coast sniper. (Hopefully, I remember the details correctly, or this whole thing goes to hell) This was a good kid, who was "raised" by the sniper for several months (years?). Whatever issues the sniper had, the boy began to internalize these as well. Eventually, the boy not only helped the sniper find and shoot at targets, but apparently took a few lives himself.

Would this boy have done this on his own? Probably not.

Should he be held responsible for these acts? That's the real question, isn't it? He should have known right from wrong, but made these choices anyway. Do we punish him regardless of the fact that it was his "upbringing" that made him the way he was?

This reminds me of my favorite line in the movie Manhunter (which Red Dragon is a remake of). The FBI aent is talking about how the serial killer's upbringing created a monster. He says something to the effect of "as a child, I weep for him, but as an adult, I want to blow the sick **** out of his socks!" Very apt words. (Actually, this line is in the old VHS version. It was removed from the DVD version. )

Keep in mind that Lucas has stated we will really feel sorry for Anakin at the end of Ep.III. I would guess that Anakin will continue to be manipulated by Palpatine, and will end up bringing about his own downfall. He loses his wife, never attains "Jedi" status, is attacked by his Master/mentor, and suffers terrible wounds requiring extensive hospitalization and a walking "iron-lung." No wonder he's so pissed at the universe

Perhaps Palpatine also knew of the Prophecy, and while ultimately not able to prevent it, did succeed in postponing its inevitable outcome. Then again, there are others who feel that every action that took place did so in order for the Prophecy to take place. I disagree with this, and I already know your distaste for the whole "destiny-guided actions" theory as well.

I hope this makes some sense. It's nice to have you back. I tried PM'ing you earlier, but no response

 

MeBeJedi, I'm far from convinved that Anakin has been brainwashed by Palpatine. Maybe this is a debate best had on the "Shift from Anakin to Vader" thread, but I would find that argument to be extremely simplistic and problematic. I don't buy the sniper analogy for a number of reasons (I'd question how much of Anakin's time was spent with Palpatine for a start).

And Anakin has already done enough terrible things to make it incredibly difficult for me to feel any pity for him whatsoever. I don't know how Epsiode III would suddenly make me feel sorry for him (I see it more as a case of him finally getting his comeuppance)...but maybe GL can pull something out of the hat?

Oh, and it's no so much "destiny guided actions" so much as "destiny controlled actions" that make me want to kick things.

And, whoops! Didn't see that PM!

JenX goes off to read it

"morbid fascination"!!!!! Why I oughta...

 

Keep in mind that Lucas has stated we will really feel sorry for Anakin at the end of Ep.III. I would guess that Anakin will continue to be manipulated by Palpatine, and will end up bringing about his own downfall. He loses his wife, never attains "Jedi" status, is attacked by his Master/mentor, and suffers terrible wounds requiring extensive hospitalization and a walking "iron-lung." No wonder he's so pissed at the universe

And therein lies my problem with this whole "Anakin as a tragic hero" thing. In order to feel sorry for him, you have to make him out to be a victim of circumstance, which is being done here. Making him a victim takes all responsibility for his actions out of his hands. All this stuff happens to him, so it's understandable why he goes bad. It make his fall something he couldn't help but get into, instead of a willful choice. When it's a willful choice, my reaction is to be ashamed of him, not feel sorry for him.

 

"Shift from Anakin to Vader"

Hmmm. Hadn't seen that one. Sounds interesting. Meet you there?

"Anakin has already done enough terrible things to make it incredibly difficult for me to feel any pity for him whatsoever."

This, I completely understand.

"destiny controlled actions"

Oops, that's right. I knew I was close...

" "morbid fascination"!!!!! Why I oughta... "

By all means! I probably deserve it

Glad you're still laughing with (at?) me


"Making him a victim takes all responsibility for his actions out of his hands. All this stuff happens to him, so it's understandable why he goes bad. It make his fall something he couldn't help but get into, instead of a willful choice. When it's a willful choice, my reaction is to be ashamed of him, not feel sorry for him."

I fear that you may not feel comfortable with, much less enjoy, EP.III

 

If by "protractors", you mean proponents, I've usually seen the opposite case with regards to viewpoints. Interesting.

Actually I meant detractors . And in answer to JenX also...I think the OT came out at a time when things in movies were much more "black and white", therefore making them simplistic. ANH was that way by design. There were "good" guys (Han, Leia, and Luke)and there were "bad" guys (Vader, Tarkin), but with ESB GL started exploring a more dimensional character. He didn't change Luke's focus so much as he did Vader's. The story then started developing twists and turns, gray areas, if you will. By ROTJ, the gray areas had expanded and the movie was mostly gray. I mean Vader was considered a "hero" in ROTJ. In the prequels, they tend to be "gray". I just meant that having Luke as a hero, and holding Anakin as a monster even after he is redeemed is a more simplistic way to view him. It's not a bad thing, I felt that way during ANH. By the nineties we had revenging heros like the Crow, and others. So some of the film styles changed. These days its way more gray and less simplistic... whew! Hope that explains a little of my line of thinking on that.

"I for one like mine a little complicated."

You and me both.

I knew when Vader uttered those lines "I am your Father" nothing would ever by the same... (goosebumps)

"There were a million one "Lukes" running around, but only one as complex as Vader and later Anakin in ROTJ."

Ain't that the truth? (though I would have put Luke in quotes. Otherwise, people around here might think they were clones )

I like your style, rhonderoo

Why thank you MBJ! Again, my favorite moment in the whole saga is when Vader tells Luke to take his mask off. Truly the saddest moment of the saga, so far. I ahve a feeling that EPIII will have a rival for it!

 

MEBEJEDI: "Good catch Rpeugh, thanks for the assist!"

Thank you Mebejedi. You are very welcome . You have posted some terrific comments. Im glad we agree on most of these things.

JenX: " I dont think it's fair to equate Anakin's failure of chopping the head off the emperor's right hand man with Anakin's failure to stop himself from slaughtering a village full of men, women, and children. Luke was presented with the image of a single evil. That he went into the cave with his weapons (and the fear and aggresion that they represent)was his true failure."

Well, I will admit that Anakin's situation with the women and children was a lot more gray than Luke's situation was. But then again, Luke would have been killing his own father. I will admit that Luke's aggression throughout the trilogy is less blatant than Anakin's, (although Luke is very mean to POOR LITTLE YODA ) but it is still there. And let us not forget that he almost did go to the Darkside. You do have some very good thoughts JenX. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Please understand that By calling Anakin the hero, I am not trying to downplay Luke's important actions in the saga. Obviously, both Luke and Anakin are heroes. I think we can all see bits of ourselves in both these characters. But if you put a gun to my head and forced me to pick I would have to say Anakin. I just find it hard to justify calling Luke THE HERO OF THE SAGA when he is not even in the first 2 episodes, and is only a baby in episode 3. And like I said, Anakin went through much more trauma than Luke did.

MEBEJEDI: "Yes but he (Anakin) was directly misinformed by Palpatine, and felt alienated by the Jedi Order." ....."For lack of a better word, Anakin was brainwashed".

Mebejedi, this is the first comment you have posted that I do not completely agree with. As a heavy PT gusher, the one thing that would ruin the PT for me is if Anakin performs his bad deeds based on misinformation that Palpatine deliberately gave to him. That would give off way too much of an OTHELLA vibe. I just dont find tragedies intesting if the hero is completely manipulated into doing the bad deed. I want Anakin to do his evil deeds on his own free will. I mean, if Anakin killed the Jedi b/c Palpatine told him that they gang****** her, and they really didnt, that would utterly suck. For me, that would make Anakin look like a fool and a chump. Now, I dont mind Palpatine telling him how great he is, (I dont mind anything he has done in episode 2 so far), and I wont mind if Palpatine simply feeds his hatred THAT IS ALREADY THERE.

Zen philosophy teaches us that its not unfortunate events that cause us suffering, its HOW WE RESPOND TO THOSE EVENTS that causes suffering. I have always thought of Palpatine as simply a representation, an extrapolation of the impulses that cause us to respond to these events in negative ways.

 

I think, if there is to be one, Anakin is THE hero of the saga.

Of course, there are many heroes in the OT and PT in the common sense: that of someone with great courage in exceptionnal circumstances and more strength in adversity than "normal" human beings. Padme, Obi Wan, Yoda, Leia, Luke, Han for instance, are heroes, and of course Anakin is one too (see pod-race, "You fell into ... and I rescued you remember", Zam's tracking and so on)

But, the etymology tells us that a hero in ancient Greek meant "half a god". Hercules, son of Zeus and a woman was one. Anakin, being born thanks to the Force with a human mother, can be compared to these heroes.

A hero is also a legendary person, and Anakin, as the Chosen One has been legendary to the Jedi Order before he was even born, because of the prophecy.

In the end, a hero (from the 17th century until now) has also the meaning of "main character of a story". I agree with some comments already stated: Anakin is the only character that we see in ALL the SW films.

So IMHO, Anakin is THE hero.

 

"anakinforever"

Folks, if you're going to support me, at least use a sock so your bias doesn't show (This is twice!!!)

 

Please understand that By calling Anakin the hero, I am not trying to downplay Luke's important actions in the saga. Obviously, both Luke and Anakin are heroes. I think we can all see bits of ourselves in both these characters. But if you put a gun to my head and forced me to pick I would have to say Anakin. I just find it hard to justify calling Luke THE HERO OF THE SAGA when he is not even in the first 2 episodes, and is only a baby in episode 3. And like I said, Anakin went through much more trauma than Luke did.

Wonderful post, rpeugh. I do agree wholeheartedly with the statement that you don't have to dislike Luke to like Anakin. It seems to be that way with Obiwan and some fans too. (Hopefully not too sweeping a generalization...) I love all three characters, Anakin's story just pulls me in more. It's more interesting to me because even though he's a Jedi demi-god, he's VERY human. I do think things were harder for him, and he didn't always handle things well, but to put him in a category with Palpatine or even Tarkin is misunderstanding his character, IMO. Heck, there are those out there who spout more vitriol at Anakin/Vader's actions than at Palpatine's. Whatever one feels, one has to admit that his character is the most charasmatic in the saga. He difinitely evokes strong feelings from those whose lives he's touched. (Even SW fans)

IMO, of course...

 

::is proud for having created the most successful thread in Star Wars Saga thus far::

Wow, you guys are really good. You have me convinced that Anakin is actually a hero of the story. A tragic hero, not a hero in the classic sense but a hero nonetheless.

Luke is still numero uno though. (The story was originally called The Adventures of Luke Skywalker for Goodness sake.)

 

"As far as I'm aware it didn't lay out one (and only one) path by which this objective could be achieved."

That is correct. The prophesy was not a road map for his life and how he would fulfil the prophesy itself. It is the end result of his life as a result of the choices he makes. The prophesy is, in a sense, part of his destiny, but not his entire destiny. Naturally, there would be several paths to reach from one point to a final destination. Therefore, the prophesy, as we know it, did not and cannot mean that he will, by necessity, turn to the dark side in order to fulfil the desired consequence of retoring balance to the force.

However, one's destiny already dictates, beforehand, or foreordains the path that one must follow. Essentially, all the choices one makes in life have already been determined by one's destiny, making them not choices at all. In spite of all conscientious decision making thoughts, they all lead to fulfiling one's destiny.

This applies in the SW saga and particulary so with Anakin. He was faced with a destiny that tied him to a noble future via a despicable life.

I think Anakin may have known this to be true, but would not have known the actual way to the end or how events would have taken place. He fully believed in the concept of destiny, as evidenced by his conversations with Luke in Ep VI.

By destroying the the stagnant and currupt old orders of the Republic and the Jedi, then the Emperor/Sith, Darth Vader and the Empire and saving the Luke and the Rebellion, we assume Anakin restored balance to the force. This was something that Anakin and only Anakin could have done and a task he didn not shirk, making him truly heroic.

 

IMHO- neither one. the point of the saga is that there are no "heroes",at least not in the western version of that concept. GL is pointing out that all of us have the capacity for good and evil, and that the choices we make determine our reality. luke, anakin, han, obi-wan, and even palpatine are a result of their choices. it is this theme of continually presenting these characters with the same choices that result in the repetition found it the movies. luke and anakin, in the final analysis, make the same choice in offering their own life for those they care about, which, in judeo-christian theory, is the ultimate measure of love. it is this process of decision making, based on the situation and their maturity, that leads to character developemnt in star wars and to the frustration people feel with the direction of the saga. obi-wan can be both honorable, and still tell luke things from a "certain point of view"

 

I think one of the most enduring features of the Star Wars saga is that it is replete with heroes.

There are heroes who, from the onset, are destined to be heroes or your regular superheroes like Anakin, Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Leia, Padme.

Then there are the average characters who by virtue of their small but brave acts, doing what they are supposed to do against the odds, or defying the mighty for what is right, become heroes. For example the members of the Rebel Alliance, the Ewoks, the droids C-3PO and R2 D2 and indeed every pilot who flew an X-Wing against the Imperial Navy.

Then there are those who, despite an unsavory or downright evil past, manage to come good and do what is right when it counts most, such as Han, Lando and of course Anakin.

 

This is one of those questions that shows just how "Star Wars" (as a genre) has managed to become a "timeless classic" (while many people seem content to dispute the PT's contribution to that end)

While Luke Skywalker can be seen as a "hero" both for his part in the Rebellion/becoming a jedi knight/and helping Anakin redeem himself, GL has said that the SW saga is the story of "the Skywalker family" (by that I consider the lives of BOTH father and son)

When Anakin is believed to be "the choosen one" that will "brng BALANCE to the Force"...you have to ask yourself...how? Is it that he was convieved by the Force, destined to fall from grace; only to turn back towards the light...and save the life of HIS son? Is refusing evil...and choosing to be that boy who: gives without any thought of reward heroism? In the grand scheme of things...I like to think so.

Does this take away from Luke's journey to find HIS destiny? No, both men have journeys to begin in the midddle of important moments in galactic history. But when you look at it from a wider perspective, Luke's journey is closely related to his role in the path of Anakin Skywalker's redemption.

 

"(The story was originally called The Adventures of Luke Starkiller for Goodness sake.) "


(Sorry...)

 

I originally posted this under the a thread asking who the "chosen one" was, but it seems to fit this thread too. Anyway, the chosen one thread seems to be pretty much dead. So, here it goes...




Here are my thoughts...

Watching the OT, if anyone would have asked me "who's the chosen one," I would
have scrathced my head and replied, "There's a chosen one?"

Once I got over it, I would have replied, "Luke."

Why? Let me tell you. There seems to be a level of "prophetic awareness"
surrounding Luke and his actions (or rather around the "child of Skywalker"). OB1
knows that Anakin's offspring would be a threat to the Emperor. The Emperor knows
this as well. The Emperor tells Vader that the son of Skywalker could destroy them
both. Vader agrees. The hopes of both OB1 and Yoda are tied EXCLUSIVELY to the
"child of Skywalker" ("That boy is our ONLY hope"/ "No. There is another [child of
Skywalker]"). I used to always watch the OT with the idea that there was a
"prophecy" that all the Force users in the OT "felt" that implied that when the child
of Skywalker became a Jedi, Vader the betrayer and the Empire he serves will fall.
Luke himself seems to acknowledge this "prophecy" when he tells Leia that, if he
does not return, she would be the ONLY hope for the alliance (ROTJ). I always
thought that it was GREAT that all the Force users in the movie made incorrect
assumptions about the "prophecy" since they clearly think that Luke is supposed to
kill Vader (Vader will FALL) and then kill the Emperor-- when the "prophecy" really
pointed to the event that instigates Anakin's redemption (the fall of Vader).

Those WERE my ideas. Then GL made TPM. Anakin is labled the chosen one. "Cool," I
think. "I was right about this prophecy about Luke. It's just that they all think it's
talking about Anakin right now."

That was my idea. Then GL said that Anakin really IS the chosen one.

There goes that!

But, since GL says Ani IS the chosen one, this is how he brings balance IMO...

The Jedi are STAGNANT! They have lost the freedom to follow the Living Force
because of their massive set of codes. The Republic is representative of the same
stagnation. It no longer functions for essentially the same reasons. Both need a
really good shake up. Anakin does this by serving the Emperor. Job one-- done.
Then, the the Emperor dominates the scene-- he and his empire become stagnant in
its EVIL. They must be overthrown. Anakin does this by killing the Emperor. Thus,
Anakin was "used" by the Force to 1) burn up thousands of years worth of
stagnation and 2) eliminate the "burning" catalyst (the Empire).

But why would the Force use such great EVIL to do this? Well, it's a dualistic force,
right? Would you expect an impersonal force that is equal parts good and evil to only
use good to fix the universe? Probably not.


Edit: To tie this into this particular thread a little more, I would have to say that a story that proposes that the ruling force (or Force) in all life is dualistic (equally good and evil) should not-- perhaps could not-- have as its hero a character who is almost exclusively good (L

 

"(The story was originally called The Adventures of Luke Starkiller for Goodness sake.) "


No, have you ever read Splinter of the Minds Eye? On the cover it says "From the continuing adventures of LUKE SKYWALKER." Know the facts before assuming please.

 

I originally posted this on the "Transition from Anakin To Vader" thread, but it probably fits better here...

We don't know what will ultimately cause Anakin to cross fully to the darkside, because we haven't seen EpIII.

Could it be because he sees his wife "slain" before his eyes, could it because he fears for her protection and lusts after the power to keep her safe, or other?

We don't know yet, therefore it is hard for me to judge whether Luke was "a better man than his father", because I haven't seen all of Anakin's story yet.

I admit that Anakin is a more emotional person than Luke, but his life was different. Luke could have reacted different if he saw Owen and Beru slaughtered before his eyes, or held them as they were dying, we'll never know.

We don't know if Anakin would have made better, wiser choices if he were given the freedoms Luke had in his life to make decisions. Not to mention, Luke had Anakin's fate to look to as an example. Anakin had none.

Who had more obstacles of the two has been debated to death, but I still stand behind my opinion that it was Anakin. I think Anakin's life was more brutal than Luke's, which let to a more brutal outcome of his choices both for himself and the galaxy.

 

I would say Luke, cause he brought Anakin back to the light side of the force. But Anakin brought the force back into balance.

The whole Skywalker family are heroes though

 

" No, have you ever read Splinter of the Minds Eye? On the cover it says "From the continuing adventures of LUKE SKYWALKER." Know the facts before assuming please. "

Actually, I have one of the original hardbound copies. BTW, here are my "facts." Please note the dates.

Starkiller: The Jedi Bendu Script

The Star Wars Synopsis - May, 1973

The Star Wars Rough Draft - May, 1974

The Star Wars Revised First Draft - July, 1974

Adventures of the Starkiller The Star Wars - Episode One - "The Star Wars" Second Draft - Jan 28, 1975 Episode One! I love it

The Star Wars From the Adventures of Luke Starkiller - Third Draft - Aug 1, 1975

Star Wars Published Script: Star Wars, Episode IV: A New Hope, from the Journal of the Whills. Public Version of Fourth Draft. As published in The Art of Star Wars, Ballantine 1979. Dated: "Revised Fourth Draft, January 15, 1976." - Jan 15, 1976

Adventures of Luke Starkiller As taken from "The Journal of the Whills" (Saga 1) - Star Wars Revised Fourth Draft Screenplay - Mar 15, 1976

The Empire Strikes Back Shooting Script - Fourth Draft by Lawrence Kasdan - Oct 24, 1978

Alan Dean Foster Page:Books:

"* Splinter of the Mind's Eye (l978)"

This novel takes place between ANH and ESB.

 

This is defintley a topic that can be argued by both sides, but in my eyes the obvious choice for the saga's hero is Luke Skywalker.
The main character of the saga however is Anakin Skywalker, who is also it's villan.

But wait...isn't the villan of the saga the Emperor? I wouldn't say so. Sideous is never really the film's threat, he is behind the scenes. To the viewer, Vader was the villan of the OT, not the Emperor.

((I know that when the time comes that Star Wars will be hailed as a six film saga rather than two trilogies but for the sake of arguement I'm going to separate them just for the meantime))

If someone asked you who the MAIN character of the Prequel Trilogy was...how would you answer? Would you say Anakin Skywalker or would you say Obi-Wan Kenobi? This is yet another arguable debate, but I personally would say both of them are the main characters of the PT. They both play semi-major roles in Episode I, while in Episode II they are promoted to the focal points of the plot. Finally we can safley assume their roles will be as equally important in Episode III, however Anakin is no longer our hero. Our co-protagonist has just become our villan.

But what's this? There's three more films of this saga? It seems as if several years have passed. What happend to our hero, Obi Wan Kenobi? Will he be able to stop the enemy? Darth Vader?

No, he must train the only one able to defeat Anakin...his son Luke ((actually Leia is able to as well but we all know she is never chosen by Obi-Wan or Yoda))

So Darth Vader wreaks havoc on the universe, and our hero Luke Skywalker is out to stop him. He must become the greatest jedi ever and defeat the all-powerful Vader. Obi Wan is out of the picture.

Yada yada yada, Luke redeems his father who kills the Emperor. The universe is saved from Vader, our long lost friend. But the question is, "Now that the saga is complete, who is the hero? Who is the one who saved the day from the clutches of evil?" The answer is Luke Skywalker. Vader was the evil in which Luke confronted. The entire SAGA however revolved around ANAKIN. So the saga's main character is Anakin/Vader, but the title of the saga's "hero" is without a doubt Luke.

Here's the list of the character's importance to the ENTIRE SAGA. If it was one giant film, the credits would have them listed in this order

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
Luke Skywalker
Obi Wan Kenobi
Yoda
Padme "Amidala" Skywalker
Leia "Organa" Skywalker
Palpatine/Darth Sideous
Han Solo
.......
....
..
you get the idea

 

[Tina Turner] We don't need another hero......[/Tina Turner]


Sorry. I couldn't resist it.

 

I say both are the hero.

Luke redeemed Anakin so that Anakin would fulfill the prophecy and bring Balance back to the Force.

 

Anakin IS a TRAGIC HERO. George Lucas himself has said that the entire saga is about the rise, fall, and eventually the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Sounds a lot like Shakespeare to me - without the poetry, although there is some bad cliches in AOTC.