PT Who or what event affected Anakin's turn to the dark side more?

Indeed. It's more of a cherry-picked truth.


We see that Anakin is well-practiced at this art from a young age.


TPM:

"Qui-Gon told me to stay in this cockpit so that's what I'm gonna do."


And in the next film:

"So you might say that we are encouraged to love."


Padme was also capable of picking up on this truth-smearing and egging him on:

"He gave you strict orders to protect me, and I'm going to help Obi-Wan. If you plan to protect me, you'll just have to come along."


Boom.

 

I'm certain that Mace was only doing what he felt was necessary to protect the Republic, the Jedi Order and the galaxy from the Sith, and prevent the Sith from dominating the galaxy. Legality and morality are not always one and the same. Palpatine being the leader of both sides in the war is certainly and definitely high treason to the Republic, but because he had all the power and could falsify everything to make it look like he was innocent, he appeared to the public to be correct...just like Hitler. Mace was actually acting in the best interests of the Republic against treason and evil. But he and the Jedi were not the senate, and the senate was unwittingly being dominated by the Sith without their knowledge. So there you go.

Back on topic, though, in answer to that same question: I respect your opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, Anakin was lying and he was responsible for helping Sidious to wipe out the Jedi and ensure the Sith took over the galaxy. Anakin was already Vader by the point he uttered those words and he was a liar. He was deceiving himself just as much as Padme if he honestly believed it. He was naive, corruptible, weak and cowardly. He was the very one who originally reported to Mace in the first place that Palpatine was the Sith Lord! He turned very quickly and very suddenly. He probably didn't honestly think all that negatively towards the Jedi - just look at the way he reacts once Mace has died. He more or less collapses and surrenders to Sidious's will in fear and anguish, because by this point he knows he has crossed a line and has no choice due to his rash actions. We all know that the only reason he helped Sidious kill Mace was because he was acting rashly, didn't think about the consequences of his actions and had been taken in by Palpatine's promise about cheating death. He was obsessed with saving Padme even at the cost of the freedom and lives of everyone in the galaxy.

As Yoda said: "Train yourself to let go of all you fear to lose". And he was right. The problem is that the Jedi were too cold and didn't show Anakin enough compassion. They didn't even seem to listen to him very much. Palpatine did the opposite, and so he gained Anakin's trust. He is the perfect example of the "evil mentor", speaking poisonous words and lies to Anakin to seduce him to the dark side and gain a new apprentice so he can dominate the galaxy. And Anakin in ROTS is portrayed as almost unrealistically naive. Palpatine does it all so well (the seduction towards the dark side) that by the time he outright states he wishes to dominate the galaxy: "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy! And we shall have...peace", Anakin is already Vader.

I think Anakin knew all too well that the Jedi had no intention of actually abusing their power. The Jedi only wished to take control of the senate temporarily in order to make sure a new chancellor was democratically elected once Palpatine had been arrested and hopefully proven to be a Sith Lord and a traitor who played both sides of the war in an attempt to takeover the galaxy.

If one takes the view that Palpatine was actually right - that basically, the Jedi were only less bad than him in that their intentions were good, but their motives were the same - and thus, the Jedi are no longer the good guys, but simply a lesser evil than the far more monstrous evil that is Palpatine and the Sith, I think that defeats the whole point of the Saga. It would make the Saga nothing more than a depressing story in which there are only bad people and slightly less bad people, as in something like Sin City. I don't buy that for an instant, and it would destroy Star Wars for me. It isn't true anyway - if it were, then the destruction of the Jedi wouldn't have been portrayed as negative and with tragic music, and the ending of Revenge of the Sith wouldn't be dark. But it is dark, because the Sith have established a brutal dictatorship through cunning, lies and brutality, and loads of people have suffered and died. ROTS is a tragedy also because the Jedi were too naive to see how the Sith were playing them all this time. But I digress...

Returning to the main topic, here is the point: we're talking about Anakin being responsible for his own actions. No matter how much Palpatine corrupted him, he is still responsible for what he did. Anyone can say no. But Anakin was weak-minded and easily corrupted. He joined the Sith out of fear and a desire to dominate and control the galaxy and other living beings.

And so, when he said that line about assassination to Padme, it's unlikely he had honestly managed to convince himself that this was genuinely true considering he'd actually exposed Palpatine to the Jedi not long before. He said that because it was the only way he could convince himself what he was doing was justified - by lying and believing that lie. There was no other way he could justify killing children whom he was supposed to be protecting. The only way he could justify that was the 'ends justify the means' argument - by convincing himself that he was defending the Republic from treason. It didn't matter that the real treason was being committed by the Sith Lord who had been playing both sides like puppets - Anakin, now Vader, had to go along with said Sith Lord, because he had been so brainwashed by him that he genuinely believed he needed the power of the dark side to prevent Padme's death.

In short, Anakin threw everything the Jedi had taught him out the window the moment it suited him to do so, and became Darth Vader. The novel implies that when Vader has just been put in the suit, he is thinking, and finally realises that he had tricked himself into believing he was doing it all - turning to the dark side, etc - for Padme, but in actuality, he hadn't been thinking about her at all - he'd really been thinking about himself. So in the end, he did it for power and because he couldn't conquer his fear inwardly.

 

Well said. And the source of that fear is attachment. And what you described is exactly what Yoda means with "Fear leads...".

I don't think, though, that the Jedi were any colder to Anakin than they were with any other Jedi. He certainly perceived them as cold, but that can't really be blamed on either side. With Obi-Wan in particular, there was a serious mismatch of emotion-communication styles. A number of times in AotC you can see him expressing affection in the flippant, oblique way he was comfortable with, and Anakin misses it (the clearest example is "Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?"), because Anakin's way of showing love is more "You are in my very soul, tormenting me..." -- and staring, lots of staring It doesn't help, of course, that Obi-Wan's not a very good listener.

 

As for the Jedi "didn't listen to Anakin very much" line: that's easy to say in hindsight. But if the "senior" Jedi SHOULD have listened to Anakin, they should have listened to all the padawans - or is it only Anakin that should have been listened to? Why? Because in hindsight had he been listened to, he wouldn't have turned (the argument as I understand it).

Where I differ - or at least don't agree - is what exactly were the Jedi supposed to listen to? His complaints of being held back, so they could accelerate his rise up the ranks whether he had "earned" it or not?

His complaints (never vocalized to the Jedi that we know of) that he wasn't allowed to have romantic love? Oh, sure, change the rules for either Anakin or for everyone based on what one Jedi wants, when the rules seemed to have worked fine for years.

IMHO one can find all sorts of "should haves" and "should not haves" after the fact, but realistically you do have to look at what the characters knew and thought at the time.

I realize looking at everything essentially from Anakin's POV (why did he?) leads to explorations of what other folks did/said or didn't - but don't lose sight of the trees for the forest. What could Anakin have done - also - to lead to a different outcome?

THAT is a fair exploration.

 

Great points

for me though it wasn't that he wasn't given special treatment, it was more to the fact that it was obvious the Jedi masters didn't really like him. I don't think I'd feel very welcomed to the Jedi way of life if in the very first meetings the reasons were changed why he shouldn't be trained. It kind of (from a certain point of view ) went like this

Jedi council: no he will not be trained he is too old

Qui-Gon: he is the chosen one, look at his midi count, it's even higher than yours master Yoda

Jedi Council: uhhm yeah, great point, uhhm uhh...his future is clouded, he is dangerous,

I imagine in the meetings that followed all sorts of reasons were put forth: "he's from Tatooine, we hate people from Tatooine" or "we don't train poor people" (ok, ok, complete conjecture and too far fetched to the point of being satirical but it did come across as excuse after excuse)

 

Oh, no doubt that "little Ani" would have been offput by that initial Council meeting (and after getting the "it'll be all okey--dokey" from Qui-Gon prior). The Council probably had no idea that Anakin =/= Jedi younglings of that age.

But after that? Did the Council continuously give Anakin the cold shoulder? Mace seemed to think Obi-Wan was the harsh(est) Jedi in AoTC and didn't seem particularly disapproving (not that we got much screen time regarding Anakin and the Council's interactions).

Trouble with a lot of these "arguments" is that many posters posit an entire pattern of behavior based on one - 1 - scene. (One could argue my thoughts that Qui-Gon was rather, um, less than tactful shall we say, with Obi-Wan - but at least I can point to multiple scenes to support my viewpoint even if tempered by others. Of the view of others that Padawan Kenobi was an arrogant, dismissive man based on his "pathetic lifeform" comment - which I have to point out was said prior to Qui-Gon identifying said subject as Anakin.)

Truth is, I personally would love to have seen something of the years between TPM and AoTC

 

That era is covered by several novels.

 

And...those novels may not be canon or even read by a lot of fans. If you're referring to the young reader series - Jedi Apprentice, so far - those are widely derided by many (not all, I concede).

 

Well regardless if they are no longer considered canon, those are the answers that were provided for that era. It seems odd to me to ask for answers and then complain when those answers have been provided. Did you mean that you want to see an alternate timeline as to what happened between the films because you are unsatisfied with the former timeline?

 

The Jedi as a whole may or may not have been cold to Anakin generally. We don't know as we didn't see his interaction with most other Jedi. But Yoda hardly had any interactions with him on-screen, and Mace was certainly cold and dismissive towards him a lot of the time - especially in ROTS. And that was the worst possible time to be cold towards Anakin. It may even have driven him towards Palpatine unintentionally.

But don't get me wrong - I'm not blaming the Jedi for Anakin's fall. All I meant was that they were sometimes dismissive and cold. But really, if Anakin strongly felt Mace was being dismissive in an unfair manner towards him, then what was to stop him from politely and calmly talking about it with either Obi-Wan or Mace himself? Instead, he took all his troubles to either Padme or Palpatine. The former was morally good, but hardly impartial or a mentor. The latter was certainly a mentor, but an evil one who used opportunities like that to turn Anakin against the Jedi. And really, Anakin should have known better. Was it that hard to find a good friend he could confide in within the Jedi Order? Surely that is how he should have been with his actual master, so indeed, why wasn't he like this with Obi-Wan?

Here's another thing that's always bothered me: If Anakin fell primarily because he was exploited by Palpatine, then it's still his weakness and stupidity, and naivete for that matter - and just how naive he is in ROTS in his interactions with Palpatine is almost absurd sometimes, IMO. If Anakin wasn't a fool, then how could he not see how Palpatine was always telling him what he wanted to hear and stroking his ego, while Obi-Wan was only occasionally strict because he needed to be in order to help Anakin grow?

Anakin's upbringing, loss of his mother, etc - these are all 'Freudian excuses' for a child murderer's behaviour. I'm not saying anyone on this board is defending Anakin's villainy after he became Vader, not at all, don't worry. I'm just saying that blaming Anakin's behaviour on the circumstances of his upbringing and life is really just an excuse. He chose to join the Sith. He didn't have to give in to his fear. Did he? No - as far as I'm concerned, Anakin fell to the dark side because he was selfish, narcissistic, arrogant, pig-headed, cowardly, and weak.

And for me personally, that is one of the failings of the new films. Aside from in Episode I, we never really saw the 'good man who was your father' whom Obi-Wan described in ROTJ, at least not in my view. We saw shades of this in Episode III, but he was still unbelievably self-centred. No wonder the Jedi Council didn't make him a master. Just look at the way he reacted when they refused! At 23 years old he was still behaving like a child when he didn't get what he wanted. Why did he never listen to his Jedi training at those bad times, at the times when his ego was bruised? That's something I genuinely don't understand about Anakin. He wasn't a sociopath, and even if he was a narcissist, he actually still showed that at other times, he in fact did listen to his Jedi training. So why didn't he listen to it more often? I can't believe it's as simple as this: That Anakin was so selfish that he only listened to his Jedi training when it suited him. If that was true, then he was never a good man, and definitely a borderline sociopath! Also, he never taught himself to master his mind or control his anger and fear, at least not truly. Why not? Anyone have any ideas about this? Because I think it's both interesting and also genuinely bizarre.

Unless one takes the view that Anakin was a sociopath. But a true sociopath wouldn't even care about his own mother, let alone any other woman. If anything, Anakin grew too attached to the people he loved, and didn't train himself to let go of this selfish tendency. It's not selfish to love, but compassionate, unconditional love is not what Anakin felt. It was possessive love.

Finally, there's the very complex debate of: Are we really, truly free and in control of our lives, or is our behaviour at least to a large degree shaped by the circumstances of our upbringing and the tendencies we develop? Even if one takes the latter view, keep in mind that 'tendencies' are always things which can be changed, even if it's very difficult to do so. It's never impossible. And so, isn't Anakin really quite truly and definitely responsible for everything he did? If he didn't bother to be mindful, that was his arrogance. If he didn't learn enough from his mistakes, that was his lack of self-discipline and mindfulness. Or was he damaged, and genuinely naive, because of having been a slave for nine years?

Interesting...

 

you make some valid points, kinda makes me want to watch those 2 films again.

 

The Supreme Chancellor:

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I'm sorry if you think my post was complaining because it wasn't meant that way. ​

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However: there's some contradictory info in the books and now none of that is considered canon, anyway. Also, considering how many folks have such diametrical opposed thoughts on Anakin's integration into the Order, I personally would love to see (canon books okay, but I'd really like to see on film) how his early years played out, if no other reason than to perhaps get a more general consensus on either how awful Anakin was treated by the mean Jedi (worse example) OR how it started out fairly okay under the circumstances and then puberty and/or Palps and/or Anakin's growing sense of his own power sabotaged his growth as a Jedi (the other extreme). ​

 

I don't really take the bull$%#@ "canon" announcements into account. Those books are what I've had to peek further into the SW universe and I keep a lot of that experience with me. I admit I haven't read much of that era, pretty much only about half of Rogue Planet, but from what I remember the book does touch on Anakin's relationship with the Council, and him missing the simpler life of being a slave on Tatooine. The books were "canon" when they were written, so complaining about them not being canon now is futile. I'm sure if I would like to see that timeline redone in a film version. My guess is that it would be another poorly written mess of a perfectly good timeline like the TCW has done to what was already an excellent timeline covered in the comics and novels.

 

Again, I'm not "complaining" so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop leveling that accusation at me if it is meant to be directed at me specifically.

 

I'd say it is his friendship with Palpatine. It's Palpatine who plants the seeds of the dark side in Anakin, throughout his youth. For example when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill Dooku. Anakin knows then that what he did was wrong, but his trust in Palpatine his friend, clouds his judgement.

 

I wouldn't say it was his trust in Palpatine that forced him to kill Dooku. He had the opportunity to do what he had always wanted to do, but now he had permission. Stover's novelization describes it pretty well.

 

It was Anakin's decision alone. He didn't have to listen to Palpatine when he started talking smack about the Jedi and glorifying the Dark Side. It's not Padme's job to be his mother and make sure Anakin is being a good little boy. As for Mace's behavior? So he's a stuffy old man with a chip on his shoulder. Hardly justification to tear down the very thing the guy fought so hard to protect and help exterminate the closest thing the guy had to a family. Watto? Anakin hadn't been working for the Toydarian for 13 years! And even when he was, Watto did come off as somewhat decent for an alien slave owner. Anakin knew he was wrong, but he kept telling himself lies in order to live with himself, in order to keep doing what he was doing. He had to buy into his own lies. It took nearly dying of his wounds from the Mustafar duel to see how deeply wrong he was. By that time, it was too late, and all he had left was the man he helped put into power.

 

I say again: Fear did him in. Fear born from an insecure life as a slave. No, not Watto, but slavery itself. From the day he was born until he was nine, he had no control over his life, no say in what was going to happen to him or his mother. She could've been taken from him at any time and there was nothing he could've done about it.
That's the kind of fear he grew up with. You don't just shake that off.
He should've trained himself to be rid of that fear, but he didn't. Ultimately, the responsibility was his, but he did it out of fear.

 

I believe Padme was the tipping point. Shmi was a huge part in his life that, like stated earlier, fed his lust for revenge but Padme was his rock; the one person held him toward the light. However, when he found out she couldn't follow him toward his new motives, that was what pushed him toward full-fledged hatred.

 

So it was Padme's refusal to follow him that is "the" ultimate cause?

Or are you saying it's his inability to accept her decision?

 

Okay. I agree. But I think saying "it's in his childhood fears" doesn't completely cover it. What he did also shows an shocking degree of selfishness. Putting his emotional neediness over hundreds of people's lives. FWIW, I don't think we owe any higher moral obligations to family/friends than to strangers, but I know many (perhaps most) people do, and if so, it would also be relevant to note that the people he killed had trusted him as one of their own. One might say, as I do indeed think, that fear is an inherently self-regarding emotion (though of course, on its own, experiencing it is morally neutral because it's a biological and psychological fact of life), but IMO the degree of selfishness he showed can't be pinned solely on his childhood insecurities: it was also an independent character defect which does have moral dimensions.

What do you say about the fact that he'd already turned to the Dark Side before she condemned his actions?

 

Cael-Fenton: Good point. Well, Anakin is an only child...
It seems, then, like it was a combination of fear and selfishness that brought him down that road. If he'd only been afraid of loss, he would probably have tackled the problem by learning to let go.
If, on the other hand, he'd only been selfish, he would probably not have felt motivated enough to kill Jedi at Palpatine's bidding. In his eyes, they were still good people at that point. Especially the younglings.

 

Padme definitely. Had he not had the vision of her dying at birth, he probably wouldn't have turned. There would have been no real reason.

 

I would have to say that his mother was the crack in the ice but the entirety of the battle between Saesee Tiin, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, Agen Kolar, and Darth Sidious and the dialogue within broke the ice. Because of his belief that Padme will die in childbirth and that Palpatine claims he could save her, knowing Windu will kill him and his knowledge of his actions against said master, this forced him to join Sidious in order to save her.

 

I don't know why this question is even being asked its been made Clear even up to the moment he decided to save palpatine from mace windu that he did it to save Padme's life.


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