Who replaces Tarkin?

Hey everyone. Again, sorry if this has been covered before, but it's another thing that bugs me slightly (I made a "Ten Things That Bug Me About Star Wars" list a few months back, figured this would be the best place to get answers!)

Ok, so, we all know that in ANH Tarkin outranks Vader. When Vader is chokin' a bitch, it's Tarkin who orders him to stop. Vader's little more than a stooge - hired muscle.

Then, of course, Tarkin dies ("evacuate? In our moment of triumph?" - love that line) and suddenly Vader's the right hand of the emperor. The most feared guy in the universe. He goes from being sneered at by Imperial offciers to being second only to the emperor.

But surley Tarkin's death left an opening for Grand Moff - someone must have replaced him, right? So how come the power that Tarkin had over Vader didn't go to the next guy? How come Vader answers only to the emperor all of a sudden?

I have 8 more of these, by the way, so if I'm being an annoying pedant, just tell me and I'll stop...

 

No. We've got a thread on that too. Check out our lovely Index.

 

Aw, man, I suck. I'll stop now.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

 

Tarkin was employed as an Imperial high rank because the man was a brilliant tactian. Darth Vader, being the Dark Lord of the Sith outranks him undoubtedly, but listens to the man because of respect and because of the Emporer's wishes.

No one directly replaces him after he dies, theres enough Grand Moff's in the galaxy as is. Vader just now takes on more of the show, which is how it should be.

 

...added to that - Tarkin doesnt outrank Vader - Vader isnt military. He's the Emporers special envoy and (in the instance you are referring to) accepts and concedes to Tarkin out of choice. Killing would be pointless, the guy hadnt done anything particularly wrong!

 

Still doesn't explain why Vader doesn't command the kind of respect he does in later films. Would Admiral Motti really have sneered at TESB or ROTJ Vader? In these films Vader is presented as striking fear into the hearts of EVERYONE in the Imperial Forces from Jerjerrod to Needa to Ozzel down to the 9-to-5 ham-and-eggers on his star destroyer, whereas he's little more than hired muscle in ANH.

Compare it to the scene in the gangster flick where one of the mobsters sneers at the hired goon, the hired goon threatens him only for the Godfather-type to back the goon off. He's big and scary, but he's still just a hired thug. Vader seems to go from goon to ultimate power in the space of two films.

 

Wow, that's pretty far off. Vader =/= Luca Brasi. Perhaps choking off his Admiral at the beginning of ESB sends a message to his troops? I don't see any more bickering with Lord Vader after his little demonstration in the conference room in ANH.

 

Apparently he was much nicer to his troops. But he was always melding with droids and clones even before he was Vader and he was 'join ya on the front line kind of dark lord sith guy, so I don't think the troops were fearful, but would rather look upon the generals and declare, 'it sucks to be you'

 

All I'm saying is the charatcer of Vader seems to go through this transformation from badguy who takes orders and gets little or no respect to the universe's ultimate evil between ANH and TESB.

And as for the "far off" thing - I'm just expressing an opinion based on how I see and interpret a movie. I don't see how anyone other than George Lucas himself can say my opinions are "far off." They're not "far off" - they just don't agree with your opinions. Surley on a discussion board/fourm the expression of opinion and individual intrepretation is encourged - not shot down as has happened twice on this page. If my presence here and my opinions about these movies offends or annoys anyone, fair enough. Just tell me, and I'll leave. Sorry to have bothered you.

 

I think it was the fact that Palpatine sent him to keep an eye on things. in the Expanded Universe, if we take that into account, it was said that Motti was considering plotting to use the Death Star to blow up Coruscant, killing the Emperor. Even though he might have wanted to, Vader couldn't just go choking people left and right in ANH. They were some of the best men the empire had to offer. Motti really wasn't sneering at Vader in my eyes; he was annoyed that Vader still believed in the hokey "Force" religion from long ago. He thought that the all mighty death star was the onlyu power that they ever need.

And if you think about it, most of the men in ESB and ROTJ were mostly lower ranked troops and Non-Commissioned/Commissioned Officers. Of course they had a reason to fear Vader; Now with the Death Star destroyed and most of the brilliant minds of the empire perished as well, Vader has no qualms about killing those who mess up ( Ozzel, Needa). Palpatine probably wouldn't care as well either.

 

Butt Edit: That was a little harsh, wouldn't you say?

 

To step away from the Vader vs. Tarkin debate and answer the question posed in the thread title, Moff Jerjerrod essentially replaced Tarkin. Tarkin was the commander of the first Death Star, and then after that is destroyed we see that Jerjerrod is in command of the second Death Star. I believe, and I could be wrong here, that Jerjerrod was appointed as the commander of the DSII because he wasn't a Grand Moff and wasn't promoted to one. Palpatine felt that having a Grand Moff in charge made it that someone too ambitious was there. Tarkin planned to annihilate Coruscant to kill Palpatine and become Galactic Emperor himself, so Palpatine figured it wasn't a good idea to have that type of person in charge of the most destructive power in the universe.

I could be totally off base, but that's my understanding of it.

 

If the EU is to be taken into account, wasn't Tarkin replaced by someone called Grand Moff Ardus Kaine? Jerjerod replacec tarkin as Death Star commander, but somebody else of the Grand Moff rank would have to replace his command of Oversector Outer. Although I think Kaine is mentioned as having less power than Tarkin.

We don't se him because normally, Darth Vader does not work with Grand Moffs. Grand Moffs are bureaucrats, they are political functionaries. Vader is an enforcer. He oversees military taskforces. He doesn't deal with these guys.

The Death Star is an exceptionary case, because it was a military operation, which explains Vader's presense, but still commanded by a politican. The same goes for the second Death Star.

Oh, and sorry if this sounds rude, but enough with the rank debate. George Lucas himself has stated that Tarkin and Vader are equals. Like Nazi Germany, there is no clear second-in-command. That would be a threat to the Emperor.

 

Keep in mind why Vader choked Motti in ANH, was because he was mocking Vader and the Force. So Darth Vader did a demonstration on him to show just how real the force is. Tarkin tells him to stop because theres no point in killing him of for that, and remember the lesson is better learned if he lives to remember it.

He gets more badass in ESB because it's more indepth to Vader then ANH, the movie solely focuses on Vader being ruthless and merciless to set up for his redemption in ROTJ. It really has nothing to do with whether or not Tarkin's around.

 

The question of who replaces Tarkin is pointless. It doesn't matter. George Lucas created A New Hope as one film, and only after the success of the film did he start to contruct the rest of the original trilogy. Hence, you have the evolution of Darth Vader the character, as you observed, MartyMichaels. In ANH Vader is just a random general in the Empire. He holds no special position in the Empire and is certainly not the apprentice of Palpatine. In ANH, the Emperor was fashioned as something of a figure head that held no real power, the Moffs actually ran the Empire. And the proof of the film is there, with the Moffs running the show and talking back to Vader. After ANH, Vader's the Emperor's apprentice, has his own super star destroyer, seemingly runs the Empire and does what he wishes. In RotJ, there is a Moff Jerrard, who Vader bosses around. Lucas tried to retcon it the best he could, but, the honest truth is that ANH Vader and the Vader in the other 5 films are two different characters.

 

Don't be too sure about that. In the ANH novelization, which came out before the film did, Vader is referred to as a Dark Lord of the Sith, and Lucas had already established in his own notes and writings that the Sith were very, very powerful users of the Dark Side.

 

I agree that he seems like a totally different guy. Especially his personality. He is very "palpatine-esque" for a lack of a better word, and with all his triumpthant braggary in the movie he seems at times very close to making an evil cheesy laugh ala the Emperor. Very far off from the bitter and pissed off guy in ESB and ROTJ.

However, Vader was the Emperor's agent already by this time. That can be seen in the script:

"an awesome, seven-foot tall DARK LORD OF THE SITH makes his way into the blinding light of the main passageway. This is DARTH VADER, right hand of the Emperor."

So Vader was the Emperor's agent in ANH. It was just that the Emperor was more of a figurehead than an actual leader at this point, which you also already mentioned. That's why Vader's status is different in this movie. I'd like to point out, though, that even though is position was lower he did still dare to strangle the moff that mocked him.

 

You could say that Vader is Palpatine's second hand man/successor. Anything goes wrong, he sends vader to "motivate" them, or see that things were going as planned.

 

At pirst when I saw this topic I thought "Who cares" and was going to type something rude.. but then i thought to myself, perhaps it does matter...

Tarkin wasn't a terribly long-lived character, but he must have been somewhat important behind the scenes, especially since Leiah knew him and that Tarkin seemed to have some power over Vader.

The truth is: Vader replaced Tarkin. May seem hard to comprehend, but in the original books Tarkin was higher ranking than Darth Vader.

 

"In RotJ, there is a Moff Jerrard, who Vader bosses around."

I kinda get the sense that Moff Jerrjerod is maybe on a Tarkin-esque level with regards to Vader. After all, if they weren't close to being equals he would never have said "I need more men" - he probably would've said "Lord Vader, I repsectfully request that you consider sending me more men." Yes, Jerrjerod is (visibily) afraid of Vader, but he stands up to him right up til Vader mentions the Emperor. Only then does Jerrjerod buckle and promise to "redouble our efforts."

I reckon Vader and the Moffs are about equal in terms of rank (or responsibilty or status whatever you want to call it). Vader is more universally feared because he's the seven foot guy in the scary black armour who'll choke a bitch as soon as look at you, but the Moffs have as much power as he does - at least on board the Death Stars which seem to be the Moffs' pet projects.

 

Vader's power over Jerjerrod was definately weaker than over Piett, Veers or any other of his own officers. But I think the Moffs are still slightly below Vader, since the more powerful Grand Moffs are apparantly on equal footing with him. George Lucas says that the Empire is made up of levels, so this is roughtly how I think it goes:

Emperor
Vader/Tarkin etc
Jerjerrod, Tagge, Motti etc
Piett/Ozzel/Veers etc

 

Meh, all governments have tiered structures, especially dictatorships. That doesn't mean you can combine into one ranking system people who have distinct functions like moffs, admirals, and.. um.... Sith lords. In most dictatorships, the military isn't the government; it just holds a disproportionate amount of power over it.

 

I believe that the Moffs, Generals, captains, etc.. run the day to day footwork operations of the empire, and as long as it doesn't threaten Palpatine or the empire in any large scale way, then they are let be. But if something happens, such as a Death Star being only half completed, or rumors of a moff trying to go rogue, then Palpatine sends vader in to make sure that everybody stays in line.