Whoa.... you guys were right.

SithSpit, in the two years and some-odd months I've posted here, I have never once been derided or insulted in the Lit forum for my opinion by everyone else. Of course, there are always a few troublemakers, but for the most part, I think the Lit posters are a polite bunch.

Now, that is my personal experience. It may not be the same for everyone, and I will admit that because of my job I have been absent from time to time (like the last month, for example, I didn't even go to Force.net at all!).

Also, when someone does really act like a jerk to someone else, three or four other people usually jump in and defend to the person being attacked, even if they don't agree with the attackee. I have never seen that happen save once in another forum.

Also, as far as newbies go, I think this forum is one of the friendliest. Try being a newbie in the Prequels Spoilers forum. They will roast you alive.

 

Well, first off, let me say that I know that the other boards are worse than here. That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. This forum is the friendliest of the ones that I have seen here. But thats on a comparative scale. It was also not my point to bash EU, as I have been accused of time and again since posting here. I am not an "up with movies, down with EU" type of guy. I just wanted to clear up that I was not defending anyone, merely pointing out something that looked a little hypocritical to me.

Granted, the forums here are not the type that people go "You are an idiot! Blah Blah Blah shut up!", like some of the other ones here. But I do find a sort of "elitist" attitude with some people here. The jabs at people are more subtle, a more read betweeen the lines pokes that are cleverly disguised so the person doing the attacking can say "You are reading into things too much!" and deny it. Its insults that allow you to cover yer own behind. This board just has a sort of, well honestly, snobbish element to it. The sort of, high society, "we look down on people who disagree with us" type of thing. I posted a few times before heavily getting involved here. And I never felt unwelcome... until I posted something that was contrary to the completist view. Then I was very much attacked (and without logic behind it, which infuriated me. I can always take criticism, as long as there is a logical reason for it). The only way I can truly describe it, and also it ties it in to SW, heh, is that this board is very... bothan. Very much like the bothan politics as read about in the Zahn novels.

I seriously am not trying to get a rise out of anyone by saying all this, I am just trying to be completely honest about how I feel here. The reason that I still bother to come here is that I do like these boards, and I like the EU, and there are also some really cool people here who do not take everything so seriously. I also can see great potential for this board to be even more welcoming and friendly than it already is. Like I said previously, I wouldn't have spoke up if I was the only one, but go read that "Admin" post. I am not alone.

I guess, also, it could be a bit of board culture shock. I am a frequent poster (and have been one since they opened) at the SWG general forum. For those of you who do not know, SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) is a MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game) being developed by Lucasarts and Sony, and allows players to immerse themselves into the SW universe (and they will be drawing heavily from the EU, as well.) you can check it out at www.starwarsgalaxies.com .
Anyway, there, we were able to create a board where people respected each other, for the most part, and were civil to each other. We have gotten into heated debates about a ton of things, like politics, religion, war, evolution vs creation, and plenty of other flame war material. Yet through it all, we all end up respecting one and other, and treating each other civily. We are there for people when they go through hard times. There are few shots at people, open or veiled. We do have problems from time to time, like any board, but because of our culture, it fizzles quick. It is the closest to board utopia I have ever posted on. We also have humorous threads, and people respect each others sense of humor, which varies from one extreme to the other. We even have a NWW that we formed (Newbie Welcome Wagon) that greets new posters, and gives them helpful information on how to get started, and what to check out first. Oh yeah, and we discuss SW too.

Anyway, coming from that, like I said, to here is a bit of a culture shock. This board is a little less tolerant. But I see the potential (humor part aside; we tend to be a gregarious lot over there) for this place to be just as welcoming, no matter what view you hold, provided you are respectful with that view.

Anyway, thats me spilling my guts and clearing things up.

You can all tell me to shut up now.

 

I think you have good points, and please really understand I don't hate anyone. I don't even hate the movie forum people, I feel sad for them.

Seriously accusing people of insulting you I find to be pretty sad, imho, most people don't care enought about what you said to have a vendetta and to go around insulting you. Yes I have strong feelings to my side, I will debate why my side is the best or the most valid. I understand personal continuity, for my own self, I add elements of tales that are considered to be infinities to be part of my personal timeline. But in a debate on continuity, it would be just as wrong of me to say well those are part of my personal continuity, or personal canon(the latter being a oxy-moron that translates to personal law, laws can not by definition be personal.). Which is why I don't bring that up when talking about the continuity only those stories that have been confirmed to be part of continuity by lack of infinities or lack of being called appocryphal.

Which is why I ask for the same kind of respect, from those that remove stories from there own personal timeline. Yes you have the right to do it privately, but in a discussion on how a story fits and weaves into the books around it, it would be offtopic to come in and say "Well, it's not in my personal timeline cause it sucks", or "I don't like it so It's not in my personal timeline", etc, etc. What has just happened is what is known as poisoning the well, as well as being offtopic post. The idea of personal continuity is to keep it personal. Definition of personal is "private". For it to be personal continuity it should stay private.

But I respect that people have there right to personal timelines outside of discussion of the Copyright Law "Continuity". I am just like you in the fact that I have a personal continuity, but for us both to bring out that fact in a discussion about continuity would offtopic to say the least.

But in anycase, you shouldn't mix up the difference between a debate and attack. Calling people illogical, when you can't see the logic in the first place is not a reason to call people illogical. Because I'm certain people will think the same thing about your quotes sometimes, that one of the reasons why people debate in the real world. If you see something illogical, you then just say something you think is logical rebuttal. Then if the person sees that as being illogical or not sound, they have the right to rebuttal your thoughts.

Also we all discuss the books we do and don't like in these forums, that is are prerogative, everyone has the right to those kind of oppinions. I know there are books I like that others dislike. I know there are books that I dislike that others like. If reasons for disliking book are brought forth with alot of thought I respect there views. Lets face it imho some authors didn't do a good job, but I respect those that think it was a good job. That is there right to have those oppinions. I have no grudges or spite against them for there oppinions.

I surely have no malace against you either, never intended malace against you, and don't understand why you have malace against me. Can't you understand that, ?

 

Ok, I am going to address this one thing at a time:

"Seriously accusing people of insulting you pretty sad, imho, most people don't care about you and don't have a vendetta over you enough to go around insulting you."

Perhaps then it is the fact that you are unaware that you are being insulting? Maybe its just your own style of conversation, and you fail to see how it insults others? Let me help by breaking it down for you. "Seriously accusing people of insulting you pretty sad" is an insult. Regardless of whether or not you intended it to be so, you are calling me a sad person. "Most people don't care about you and don't have a vendetta over you enough to go around insulting you" is another insult, not so much because of what is said (because I know I don't matter), but how you said it (most posters keep posting because they feel what they have to say DOES matter). This is an example of the "better than you are" type of insults I am talking about. It gives me the feeling I have been talked down to. Hey, it may be that you are unaware of that, in which case, I cannot fault you for it. But now I am making you aware of it, and politely asking you to please be more careful with how you phrase things when you disagree. Not saying you should walk on egg shells or change what you say, just consider how it would come off to someone else.

"Yes I have strong feelings to my side, I will debate why my side is the best or the most valid."

And I have no issues with that, for that is what we all do. It just is a personal pet peeve of mine when the debate focuses on the other person being wrong, than on why you are right, and the logical reasons for such. I.E. Person 1 - This is right because ***
Person 2- No you are wrong.

Not really convincing, and just peeves people off. Now a better way to handle it, and make for a more constructive debate is this: Person 1 - This is right because ***
Person 2- No you are wrong, because of this, this, and this, and also this as stated on the SW web site, and also this in the Novel ***.

Much better debate because facts are being bounced back and forth. But all this is just a personal pet peeve. We all debate for our side, and I would expect nothing less.

"I understand personal continuity, for my own self, I add elements of tales that are considered to be infinities to be part of my personal timeline. But in a debate on continuity, it would be just as wrong of me to say well those are part of my personal continuity, or personal canon(the latter being a oxy-moron that translates to personal law, laws can not by definition be personal.). Which is why I don't bring that up when talking about the continuity only those stories that have been confirmed to be part of continuity by lack of infinities or lack of being called appocryphal.

Which is why I ask for the same kind of respect, from those that remove stories from there own personal timeline. Yes you have the right to do it privately, but in a discussion on how a story fits and weaves into the books around it,"

Well, the forums are a good place for debate, and I would argue that it IS a constructive thing for fans to debate if there is a better way to handle the continuity. No one is pushing anything, just expressing their beliefs.


"it would be offtopic to come in and say "Well, it's not in my personal timeline cause it sucks", or "I don't like it so It's not in my personal timeline", etc, etc. What has just happened is what is known as poisoning the well, as well as being offtopic post. The idea of personal continuity is to keep it personal. Definition of personal is "private". For it to be personal continuity it should stay private."

Well, and this is just me, but I disagree again. If it refers to literature EU, it would not be off-topic to post those things. However, it would be a bad post that contributed little to anything. This is the EU literature forum, and as so long as it deals with the EU and Literature, it isn't off topic. I th

 

Ok, I am going to address this one thing at a time:

"Seriously accusing people of insulting you pretty sad, imho, most people don't care about you and don't have a vendetta over you enough to go around insulting you."

"Perhaps then it is the fact that you are unaware that you are being insulting? Maybe its just your own style of conversation, and you fail to see how it insults others? Let me help by breaking it down for you. ""Seriously accusing people of insulting you pretty sad" is an insult. Regardless of whether or not you intended it to be so, you are calling me a sad person."

No I did not call you a sad person, I just find it sad, when people resort accusing others of insulting others. Your not the one sad, I'm the one sad. You really should PPOR, before making accusations, or it starts sounding like a Appeal to spite as that one person in the other thread brought up.

""most people don't care about you and don't have a vendetta over you enough to go around insulting you" is another insult, not so much because of what is said (because I know I don't matter), but how you said it (most posters keep posting because they feel what they have to say DOES matter). This is an example of the "better than you are" type of insults I am talking about."

No, I'm just saying that most people don't care enough to insult people, and just read comments and don't think to much emotionally about them. They will debate what they don't agree with, and put forth there facts for that reason. I'm saying most people don't set up vendetta's against you, or hold grudges. They will just read your posts, and discuss from there. This is by no means an insult on there part or mine.

"It gives me the feeling I have been talked down to. Hey, it may be that you are unaware of that, in which case, I cannot fault you for it. But now I am making you aware of it, and politely asking you to please be more careful with how you phrase things when you disagree."

You need to calm down, and stop reading negativity into my posts.


"Not saying you should walk on egg shells or change what you say, just consider how it would come off to someone else."

You need to calm down and understand that we are just discussing stuff with each other.

"Not really convincing, and just peeves people off. Now a better way to handle it, and make for a more constructive debate is this: Person 1 - This is right because ***
Person 2- No you are wrong, because of this, this, and this, and also this as stated on the SW web site, and also this in the Novel ***."

That is how I debate, if you don't seem to see the because, I have no idea why, could you PPOR were I didn't? Maybe I said something like I agreed with another posters list of reasons? When I debate, I always say you are wrong, here is why you are wrong: list, or You are incorrect because: list, etc etc.

"Much better debate because facts are being bounced back and forth. But all this is just a personal pet peeve. We all debate for our side, and I would expect nothing less."

Your holding a pet peeve against me that has nothing to do with the way I debate, since the way I debate is the way you described debating.

"Well, the forums are a good place for debate, and I would argue that it IS a constructive thing for fans to debate if there is a better way to handle the continuity. No one is pushing anything, just expressing their beliefs."

That's all good and well but in the end, lfl decides what is and isn't. I will point out the reasons why that is the case. You can then rebuttal those reasons if you like, and I can rebuttal those reasons If I disagree, by pointing out other reasons like I always do.



"Well, and this is just me, but I disagree again. If it refers to literature EU, it would not be off-topic to post those things. However, it would be a bad post that contributed little to anything. This is the EU literature forum, and as so long as it deals with the EU and Literature, it isn't off topic. I think you are letting your personal preference get in the way here. Pers

 

Actually it was just one person, you and JMA.

Leave me out of this one. I'm done with this.

JMA

 

JMA, you asked for foregiveness, and I gave it too you. Your not part of this. I was just explaining to him that it was only him. Even you stopped, and that only left him. I hope we can have discussions in the future.

 

Well, I do owe an apology of sorts. I went back and re-read the posts where I got hammered, and it was some guy named Bib something-or-other, and not you, who was illustrating the person1-person2 point to a T. But the original post was not specificly aimed at you, but for general consumption anyway. Still, I did erroneously mistake you for Bib, and I apologize for that.

As with the whole "bad" - "people don't care about you" thing, I know that isn't what you meant. What I was telling you is how that came off sounding. The whole thing sounds condescending, as you can at times. That was the point I was trying to make.

Anyway, this wasn't intended to be a "Bash Val" post at all. It was intended for full community consumption. I just felt you brought up issues in your following post that I wanted to address.


As far as the 2 places where you tell me to calm down, I am calm. I am calmly pointing out a couple of things to you as you have done to me. I was attempting to be as polite and calm as possible, and it seems that all I got was to be told to calm down. Please, re-read those in the spirit in which it was written, one of building up, not tearing down.


"But it seems you didn't notice my "because this this and this" in my posts. you only wanted to argue for the sake of argueing I think."

You are correct in Sentence one, and I apologize. The second IS an insult. You may believe that, but that is not how I go about things. I do not intentionally troll or stir the pot, and I apologize when I am wrong (and no, I am not implying you do anything to the contrary, I am just speaking of me). If thats what you believe though, fine. I can only hope that your mind will change on that matter as you get to know me better.

As I said before, I apologize for confusing you with Bib, and treating you as such. Now, shall we just put this whole unfortunate episode behind us?

 

Oy vay

 

I wasn't a part of this original debate, but I am a part of this particular thread, so I'll throw in my two cents, take 'em or leave 'em.

SithSpit, I have been posting with Valiento for a long time. He's an intelligent person, whom I have found to enlighten me or show me something new every time we have spoken. He knows what he's talking about, and when it comes to facts he is almost always 100% on top of things. There are few people on this board who I have that kind of opinion of.

I have seen him debate many times. Never, not once, have I ever seen him say anything that I could see as a direct, personal insult to anyone. Sometimes he may be a little short, but it's hard not to be in an impersonal communication like a message on a board. But I think that you may possibly be misconstruing what he is saying. In this thread alone, I read his statement and found nothing insulting about it, but you did. I don't think many people have found him insulting.

Maybe you should possibly take a step back and rethink the way you are seeing things, SithSpit. Maybe you just take things too personally, or maybe you read things out of context. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that the problem lies in a misconception on your side.

 

"Well, I do owe an apology of sorts. I went back and re-read the posts where I got hammered, and it was some guy named Bib something-or-other, and not you, who was illustrating the person1-person2 point to a T. But the original post was not specificly aimed at you, but for general consumption anyway. Still, I did erroneously mistake you for Bib, and I apologize for that."

Thanks for the apology, and I sincerely forgive you.

You should see the amount of times I have to do damage controle because of the things that bib has said, , making EU fans look bad. . But I think he means well, I useally just back him up with facts, or correct him if he a bit off skeltor.(In other words I hold no malace against, the bib chap.)


"As far as the 2 places where you tell me to calm down, I am calm. I am calmly pointing out a couple of things to you as you have done to me. I was attempting to be as polite and calm as possible, and it seems that all I got was to be told to calm down. Please, re-read those in the spirit in which it was written, one of building up, not tearing down."

Actually the calm down was in pointing to how it seemed you were accusing me of making weak arguements, with no reasons. I was trying to say calm down and look at the big picture, and see that that Is not how I argue. I'm sorry I confused you, .



"But it seems you didn't notice my "because this this and this" in my posts. you only wanted to argue for the sake of argueing I think."

You are correct in Sentence one, and I apologize. The second IS an insult. You may believe that, but that is not how I go about things. I do not intentionally troll or stir the pot, and I apologize when I am wrong (and no, I am not implying you do anything to the contrary, I am just speaking of me). If thats what you believe though, fine. I can only hope that your mind will change on that matter as you get to know me better."

I felt insulted by you accusing me like you did. So I was pointing out, that if you thought I wasn't showing points and just arguing for no reason at all. That in that case you must have argueing for the sake of argueing. That term can be neutral, and I agree that it can also be used an insult. I'm sorry you took it as an insult. I was using it in the neutral sense,but I promise considering that you apolized for the accusation. I will in the future, try not to use that sentence in the future, I do not want to offend you with it.

"As I said before, I apologize for confusing you with Bib, and treating you as such. Now, shall we just put this whole unfortunate episode behind us?"

I forgive you once again, thank you giving it out. I whole hartedly forgive you. Yes, this is behind us, I promise you I won't ever bring up what you have done in the past. I expect the same courtesy from you. I promise you that as for me I won't be resorting to the genetic fallacy. I would just like to have fruitful discussions in the future. By our future discussions be fruitful.

 

", being fairly new to posting here on a regular basis, I want to approach this as delicately and politely as possible, which is usually the exact opposite of how I do things . But I am just telling the truth, and not saying this to ruffle feathers, piss people off, rile people up, etc. This is just my honest assessment. Ok, now that I am done with the disclaimer, here it goes: "


WEll,your threads seemed dewsigned to rile up a response.

"We all know how GL liks to destroy the EU" wasn't the best way to make friends. Perhaps you could be a little more diplomatic next time.

There is very bad blood between EUers and purists and I don't think you realise this. Way back when ,the AotCs forumand much of the JC
was very hostile to EUers. There were very prominent members that even got away with insulting our intelligence on a few occasions. That's how bad it was.

Then admins started coming up with ways to remedy this. Thanks to the efforts of admins like Lil Wookie, tonyf, and more recently Padme Bra, EUers are becoming more accepted in forums where they were once disliked ,such as the Classic trilogy forum and the AotCs forum. It's a truly happy day when I can joke about the failings of the EU without someone coming in making the jokes into something hate filled and hurtful to EUers.

Your thread and your posts are kind of threatening to EUers I suppose. Mot only that,but they're haughty in tone. You make it seem as if your opinions are GL's. Do you have proof that he likes destroying the GL? Did you make it clear that that was your opinion? Have you just been joking? It's kind of hard to tell on a message board you know.

Maybe a more diplomatic approach is in order. Make sure that people know that your opinions are just that...YOUR opinions. Expect to get in arguments with people who disagree with those opinions. Accept their oppinions. Just don't try to make your opinions seem like fact.

(oh and remember..to avoid canon debates the PC term is personal continuity )

Welcome to the Literature Forum.

 

Thx Trias.

In terms of the GL destroying Continuity thread, I was joking. I thought the fact I repeatedly placed in the title (Humor)..etc would let people know that, but I guess not. I just posted there explaining that. Live and learn. Thx for going over some of the ropes with me, as there is some sore spots I would not have been able to realize were there until it was too late. As far as being haughty, yeah, I guess I can come off like that. My life has been SW (heck, who's here hasn't?), and I usually am a wealth of SW info. So I think I tend to come off that way. I will work on that.

As far as people arguing with me, I have no problems with that. Its what debates are made of.

Oh, and Val, I look forward to chatting in the future. And if I come off a little pissy or mean, or something rubs you the wrong way, don't hesitate to ask if I meant it like that. One thing as you get to know me, you will find I am a straight up, no B.S., tell it like it is kind of guy. A little tempermental, but well meaning and rational once I cool off. And a little zany.

 

Word of warning sithspit, if you intended to say (humor), that isn't what the topic says.

I might have been cut off(I will give you that benifit of the doubt), this is what is what it says currently,

"Topic: As we all know Lucas loves to destroy the EU with his movies, what if...."

Absolutely no mention of humor. So you will notice why everyone was mistaken.

I also recommend using more smiles in topics you intend to be humor, to denote emotion. they are known as emoticons for a reason. Or they will end up sounding completly serious, even if that wasn't your intention.

 

I actually tried to make peace once, it failed...

 

well, first of all, this thread was just about rescued from falling into the Eu v Movie trap, and cleverly turned around into a thread where everyone compliments us lovely ppl over here in the lit. forum... it's so nice to be considered friendly...

and secondly, we probably need a thread called Valiento versus SithSpit, to save them filling up all our threads with debates/arguments... (second in two days)

 

The movies are just filler between the books.

Anyone who hates the EU is either illiterate, or massively ignorant.

Thats all there is to it.

 

*sigh*

 

"Anyone who hates the EU is either illiterate, or massively ignorant"

Resolute that comment was no better than alot of the bashings the movie only fans make towards us. Please be more diplomatic in the future.

 

Sigh,

Can't we all just get along?

*Betwoo!* *Thud!*

"Hell, NO we can't all get along!"

 

Why do so many threads have to turn into Canon/Continuity debates???

why?
why?
why?

 

Hey SithSpit, I understand what you were saying in your post, but what's going on is that the EU is being held in discontent over in the movie forums. I mean you say something about the the EU, and you're lucky you're talking through the computer because if you weren't they'd be on you faster than a pack of dogs on a three legged cat. Look at it this way, when movies are mentioned here, no one would bash on it because that's just plain stupid. If there weren't any movies, there wouldn't be the EU. Over there, it's a totally different story. A lot of people over there have tunnel vision, and only accept the movies as Star Wars, while everthing else is just crap with the Star Wars logo on it.

 

I dunno.
No need for the SithSpit vs Val thread, we made peace. Can I just claim temporary insanity?

I guess the reason so many threads turn into canon/continuity debates is because due to the overwhelming wealth of products and literature we have been blessed with, there also comes different beliefs, interpretations, and tastes that come along with it.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, I guess maybe we should all just be thankful that we have been given so much stuff to debate on.

My goodness, did I just say something smart? I dunno, pinch me! Lol.

Well, judging by the reaction of people to my sudden burst of posting on these boards, I'd say I am living up to my handle pretty well. Heh, wasn't my intent, but hey, I guess everyone has got to start somewhere. Now it's time I just work on being a kinder, gentler SithSpit.

Oh dear, I am rambling.... Anyone got a restraining bolt?

 

My My, such good use of those smilies, they liven up your posts a bunch keep them up, .

Good thoughts those as well, .

 

I've posted a few times over in the movies forum and as long as you
don't keep quoteing EU they seem to leave you be. [face_shocked]
With my user name it's clear that i'm an EU fan too.