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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    Darth Sidious had an alter-ego. So did Khan. If it was Plagueis I don't think they'd tell us before we see the ST film he is revealed in.
     
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  2. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Maybe the First Order's obsession with Vader is because they share Vader's dream: for dark side users to rule the galaxy openly. While Sheev wanted the Sith to rule in secret, Vader wanted the Sith to rule openly.
     
  3. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Perhaps there's more to Vader than we know. In fact I'm betting on it. Vader seemed quite obedient to his master, even to the point of bringing his own son's life to the brink, in Return of the Jedi. My question is, when exactly did Vader think the best time to utilize his Knights of Ren? Not exactly a great strategist is he? Always a blunt force and never one for finesse.

    What is it that Kylo thinks unfinished by Vader? The Prophecy? Saving Shmi and Padme from death? Learning Sith secrets and unnatural abilities? What else was in Vader's planner or "To-Do" List?
     
  4. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 2, 2014


    I've wondered whether Vader's ANH line "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" has influenced the story group's current design? In particular, the sections of the Tarkin book that hint at Sidious' hitherto unrevealed grand scheme?


    "I almost don’t know how to process what you write about Sidious’ plan to use the Sith shrine to extract secrets from the dark side. He’s talking about reshaping reality and creating a universe. I feel like this is the most concrete description of Sidious’ real ambitions that we’ve ever gotten. He even says that the Death Star’s real purpose wasn’t its power but its symbolism, which meant he was free to step back from being the symbol."
    http://star-wars.suvudu.com/2014/11/interview-with-james-luceno-author-star-wars-tarkin.html


    So, Sidious seems to have had a grand plan, beyond mere Empire building. Can we assume that Vader was privy to this? That perhaps that he had his own ambitions concerning this grand plan?
     
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  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    There was always one thing that was left unfinished by anakin at least, that never got resolved in the PT. He had a dream that he'd be a jedi and free the slaves. Most of his dreams had a knack for coming true. Now as a boy, Anakin thought that meant the other slaves on tattooine...but perhaps it really meant across the Galaxy. Perhaps in some twisted delusional way...kylo wants to fulfil that. (Not the kylo would even know about Anakins dream)

    I dunno. Just conjecture. But I was hoping that wold come back into play in the ST. That Luke or the new Jedis would finally free all the peoples enslaved by the empire or whatever group you have.
     
  6. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    That's something I don't understand. Why did Sidious hide the fact that he was a Sith even after he had taken over?
     
  7. Turinsd00m

    Turinsd00m Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 9, 2014
    For the same reason that he built the Deathstar, To solidify his power. He was able to take over the senate partially because he used the Dark Side to manipulate a large portion of the Senators- but he couldn't control them all. There were plenty of Senators who were not susceptible to his power, and those senators needed to be manipulated by Palp's carefully constructed lie about the Jedi's betrayal. If anyone were to find out he was a Darkside force user working in secret all that time, that lie could crumble because everyone would expect the Jedi to try and stop him then. He needed to remain "just a man" to keep the lie going- at least until he finished building the Deathstar to use to rule by fear alone. That's why Palps disbanded the senate shortly after the battle station was operational.
     
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  8. Turinsd00m

    Turinsd00m Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 9, 2014

    I like this premise. Mostly because I believe that the First Order is going to have some sort of Mind Control aspect to it. I think somehow the big baddie of this trilogy will have discovered a way to control the masses with the Force. It's the only way you can one-up what Palps did. A new baddie who just picks up pieces of the broken Empire and organizes them is not near as hardcore as Palps was after all his manipulations. But a new baddie who can Sith Mind Trick the masses is a whole different story. That's not to say that the top members of the military and the knights of Ren are all mind controlled, just the masses.
    It also can explain Finn's transition at the beginning of the film. He doesn't just change his mind about being a storm-trooper the first time he see's action. Stormtroopers are no doubt trained to follow orders no matter what. He was under Snoke's spell like all the rest, and then his own Force aptitude combined with his proximity to the Bespin saber allows him to break free. I've speculated before that the awakening from the title might have something to do with the chosen one's old saber becoming a powerful conduit for the force. Perhaps once Finn reaches the same planet as the saber he is able to finally see past the lies implanted in his brain.
    So, essentially the rank and file of the First Order is really made up of slaves- who need to be rescued as well as stopped.
     
  9. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 21, 2012
    And maybe that's why its called The resistance. They're not rebels. You can't rebel against hypnotic mind control... You can only resist it.
     
  10. BlueHenDave

    BlueHenDave Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 21, 2013
    Someone mentioned mind control being a new power in TFA....I believe in the ROTJ novel, it implied that once the emperor was killed, the empire became disorganized and this his will was what kept them together. That to me says Palpy was using some sort of force power to provide guidance over the masses...sounds like mind control to me.
     
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  11. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014

    Thrawn elaborated on it in "Heir to the Empire," but nothing of that sort has been seen in the new canon novels. It's possible that power might still exist.
     
  12. RC-2473

    RC-2473 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 14, 2015
    not bad ideas being thrown around but I really hope the galaxy isn't collectively being 'mind controlled' lol.
     
  13. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 31, 2014
    I like this idea and it would create some drama/tension (friends against each other), who can resist the mind control. ;)
     
  14. RC-2473

    RC-2473 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 14, 2015

    to clarify, I hope they aren't being literally mind controlled through this huge force trick. becomes too cartoony and I think making it to where everything is literally up to a few 'resistant' people would take away from the 'huge' feeling of star wars. at worst it would be like ****ing matrix revolutions where everyone is smith and everything gets too big for its own good. also it would diminish like 90% of the themes of the st. when you take the genuine frustration that might lead to support of the first order because 'they were just being mindcontrolled the whole time' it becomes way less interesting.
     
  15. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Mind control has been done to death.
     
  16. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014

    As Clint Barton says in Avengers 2: "Already did the mind control thing. Not a fan."
     
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  17. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 31, 2014
    Maybe no large scale mind control, but some sort of mind control of important people, so that they help the bad guys without knowing it. ;)
     
  18. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Maybe it's like the mass hypnosis from Naked Gun?
     
  19. Darth_Voider

    Darth_Voider Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 4, 2015
    While this theory about mind control is very interesting for sure, Finn's arc works best for me if he is a true believer in the First Order's case at first but then decides to defect on his own.

    Gesendet von meinem GT-P3110 mit Tapatalk
     
  20. Bullhead CIty

    Bullhead CIty Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 1, 2012
    Makes you wonder if Finn has his own "awakening" post-Jakku, realizing what he's doing isn't right. Becoming more self aware due to a previously unrealized connection to the Force?
     
  21. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    Spoken like a true believer. It also hints to a survived spiritual sentiment in Vader, too, almost at the same time Old Ben was saying he was "more machine than man". I think that line in desperate need of pay off in the ST. What does Vader mean by this?

    Ostensibly the Force destroyed the Death Star, right, so faith in technological power was misplaced in Vader's view. Technocrats like Motti and even Tarkin were fools according to Vader. Since Palpatine proceeded to construct a second Death Star Vader must have sensed some doubt in him. But Palpatine either lied or hid his plans and knowledge from Vader. Vader ran out of time and his only recourse to destroy Palpatine in the moment, even though it meant his own end. Again, the Force proving the point about its significance.
     
  22. Mungo Baobab

    Mungo Baobab Manager Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 2, 2014
    Immortiss

    Yes, excellent point. Sidious is also ultimately something of a technocrat at heart. The recent Darth Vader comics, and their technologically enhanced 'Vader replacements' also explore this idea. Vader ( ironically, given his mechanical limbs ) is the Sith who is most devoted to the spirituality of the Force. It would be very interesting to see them explore this further.
     
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  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I wouldn't be so sure that the Death Star isn't connected to The Force. It's powered by Kyber Crystals, the same crystals that piwer lightsabers, the Tarkin novel says that Sheev intended to seclude himself in the Sith shrine once the Death Star was completed, and Dark Empire implies that the mass destruction and death caused by the Death Star powers Sheev's dark side rituals.
     
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  24. darthtimetraveller

    darthtimetraveller Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 9, 2015
    Whoever the main bad guy is, he's gotta be pretty bad-ass, because it was said or hinted at a while back that the new bad guy in the ST makes Pazuzu look like a panzy. I'm betting the new baddie is something like possibly a darkside demon or the actual incarnation of the darkside (in story). Perhaps Snoke isn't the big bad, but he's just a front for something far more evil and powerful; and in the end it's Rey, Finn, and a redeemed Kylo (possibly with help of Luke and Anakin) that have to take it out.
     
  25. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
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