Speculation Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. I_Love_Scotch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2013
    star 2
    We never had to argue all of this prophecy and balance/unbalance stuff before the prequels came out....just 2 bad mofos in charge of the Universe. Just sayin'.

    Let's imagine the prequels didn't happen. At the end of ROTJ, the 2 baddies were dead. Its implied there is no bad anymore. In the prequels this would be the definition of "balance". This is why I don't think there was another baddie. Forget the prophecy stuff, as far as I'm concerned that prophecy was just something Yoda and Mace cooked up while they were hot boxing their speeder.
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  2. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    This should be explored in a spin-off film, not the ST.
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  3. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Oh, how I miss the days of that uncomplicated Universe.
    Last edited by Immortiss, Jul 24, 2013
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  4. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    I am not saying the Emperor was obsessed with Luke. He was no more interested in Luke than the apprentice after Luke Skywalker or the ones before him. The Emperor's apprentices are just a means to an end. My initial response to you was about Vader likely not having to convince the Emperor to turn Luke Skywalker in that TESB scene. You don't have to be obsessed to want or desire something. Once ROTJ and the PT were filmed and expanded upon the Emperors character and tactics, the scene in TESB became a lot less simple.

    My evidence that Palpatine was interested in Luke Skywalker mainly rests on the fact that he tried to turn Luke Skywalker. In the middle of a pursuit in the TESB, the Emperor commands Vader to make contact with him so that they can discuss Luke Skywalker. Part of the plan to turn Luke involved capturing and freezing Luke in carbonite to make his journey towards the Emperor. That is why Luke's friends were made to suffer. When that didn't work, the Emperor essentially came to where Luke would be at the battle of Endor to gloat and give a skybox view of Luke's friends being destroyed.





    Vader betrayed the Emperor on Mustafar long before TESB. That is what the movies show.





    Try not to hold a double standard.
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  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Vader convincing the Emperor is exactly what the scene shows. That's a fact. And I don't think ROTJ or the PT changed anything about it. Liars don't lie 100% of the time.

    The Emperor called Vader and ordered Luke dead. Then Vader suggested turning him. Then suddenly Palpatine changes his mind. Therefore he called to make sure that a threat is dealt with. Later he reconsidered his stance on Luke Skywalker.

    I don't know what Vaders plan has anything to do with it. The trap was solely plan and sprung by Vader.

    Would Palpatine know about it? We only know that something between TESB and ROTJ motivated him to replace Vader.

    What? My little theory is supported by evidence, like the dialogue for instance. Your claims are not supported by anything else than speculation.
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  6. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    It's a fact that the Emperor is a liar and his servants or those he manipulates have a history of presenting him with what he wants in the form of ideas, suggestions, and actions without them even realizing they're doing his bidding. The Emperor has been known to fake reactions. ROTJ and the PT have put doubt into that TESB scene when it comes to Vader having to convince the Emperor of anything in that scene.






    The Emperor did not order Luke dead. He says Luke is a new enemy that could destroy them and that he must not become a Jedi. But he does not say that Luke must be killed, destroyed, or wiped out. The Emperor stresses the severity of the threat. It is Vader who then offers the solutions.

    As for the trap, I was citing an example of the Emperor trying to have Luke captured so that he can be brought to him. It was Luke and his abilities that the Emperor wanted. That is why his friends were made to suffer. The trap failed though. So in ROTJ, the Emperor tries a different strategy. You had previously said that the Emperor didn't spend much effort on capturing him.






    How would Palpatine know about the Bespin betrayal?








    You told me not to present you with "it would make sense something something" yet you yourself presented me with "it makes sense something something." Apparently you consider what the Emperor might have been thinking in regards to why he wouldn't want to train Luke as evidence based on dialogue. Where does the Emperor critique Luke's leadership skills in the TESB conversation?
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  7. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
    star 2
    You know, coming up with cool villains that sell in action figures isn't difficult. And no the prophecy is not only MORE important than the Sith, it's also NOT ambiguous or vague. Clearly some folks have a hard time with the Star Wars mythos. And by the way, some are saying that Assaj Ventress was a Sith-She Was NOT.
    Last edited by El Jedi Colombiano, Jul 24, 2013
  8. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I wonder why Palpatine told Vader that Luke is his son. I thought Palpatine didn't want Vader to know that he had living family.
    It's not that the prophecy is is ambiguous or vague as much as Star Wars has a long history of retcons (such as Vader being Luke's father). Ventress being called a Sith is due to the TCW writers being indoctrinated in the ways of the EU. In the EU, anyone who has one teeny tiny disagreement with the Jedi is called "Sith".
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Jul 24, 2013
  9. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
    star 2
    Ventress was never called a Sith in TCW. if anything, she was a ''dark side apprentice'' to Dooku. They have always said that such title was prohibited by the Rule of Two, and Sidious's watchful back on them. And well yeah, we'll see if the prophecy gets ''retconned''.
    Last edited by El Jedi Colombiano, Jul 24, 2013
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  10. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Ahsoka called Ventress a Sith.
  11. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2013
    star 2
    Yeah, but Ahsoka probably doesn't know that much about them anyway. Remember that several doubted Sidious's existence for a long time.
  12. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Ahsoka was wrong. That you're right about.
  13. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Ok, let's try and bury this issue on w and for all. Tell me word for word what the prophecy actually says without using a single characters interpretation of the prophecy. If you can do that then I will acknowledge it is not ambiguous. The door is wide open my friend. Not a single word of the actual prophecy has been told to the audience.
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  14. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Am I the only one who thinks the Rule of Two is part of what made the Sith so awesome in I-VI? With the Rule of Two, you have two well-developed, unique characters who change the whole galaxy in spite of their lack of numbers.
  15. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Completely agree. The Sith of the films are much more fascinating to me than the Sith armies of the EU. Two Sith who hide in plain sight as they plot everyone else's downfall. I love it.
  16. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    And that's why we should do something different for Episode 7-9. You can't top Palpatine and his apprentices at that game.

    If Rule of Two Sith come back... boring. Been there, done that. Don't see how they can do it better.

    That's why we need a different Sith. We've never seen a Sith Order that isn't headed by Palpatine.
  17. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    We need another transformational villain in the ST. A transfiguration of the main villain. One that makes Palpatine look like child's play. One that scares the crap out of everyone.
    Last edited by Immortiss, Jul 24, 2013
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  18. LANDO_ROCKS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2002
    star 4
    The only thing that makes sense is for the biggest, baddest, bad guy to come back.

    He didn't die on screen, he's been regrouping and building an army of Sith in secret.

    That's right, Darth Sidious is going to be back baby!

    He learnt how to cheat death, just like he told Anakin.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    There's only doubt when the conventional explanation doesn't work. But it does and perfectly.

    ROTJ doesn't put doubt in this theory. Lets compare Anakins fall and Lukes: In the first case Palpatine spends a whole decade molding him. When Anakin refuses to kill Dooku or when he is burnt up on Mustafar, Palpatine still sees value in him. Luke however he dismissed after one turning attempt.

    The Endor-trap isn't set for Luke but the whole rebel fleet. Of course it was also a useful means to turn Luke. And I never put in question that he wanted to turn Luke post TESB, obviously. I am not sure why you would think that surmounts to a lot of effort. Unless you think one man is more important to Sidious than the whole rebel fleet?

    He wouldn't. But he is probably aware of the possibility, a possibility that wasn't there after Mustafar (because Vader was all burnt up and ****).

    "And your faith in your friends is yours."
    He also derisively calls him "boy" and "young fool".
    That to me doesn't suggest he thinks highly of Lukes intelligence.
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  20. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    I think what we see in the situation of Palpatines attempt to turn Luke is fear from Palpatine. I do believe turning Luke was his endgame move, but when Luke refused to pull off an Anakin Palpatine realized he had a big problem on his hands. Those sharp rebukes on Luke's character were to keep Anakin Skywalker at bay. I realize this is just speculation, but I believe Palpatines snap decision to kill Luke was partly based off the fact that he didn't want Vader to get to confused with emotions.
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  21. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    To use your own logic, whatever else they do would be a Rule of Two Sith Order headed by Palpatine in all but name.
  22. I_Love_Scotch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2013
    star 2
    Sidious got blasted into oblivion...he ain't comin' back.
  23. HegoDamask Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2013
    star 2
    I have to agree with you... I wish we'd have an Alien antagonist! However I think that the villains will end up all being humanoid in the film. CGI Aliens just don't really cut it as main villains. In the case of Plagueis; Unless they do something really amazing with prosthetics I doubt we'd see a Muun Plaguies, they'd probably just retcon him.
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  24. Joe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 6
    At this point, I feel arguing about the bad guy of the film, while fun, is entirely pointless. I have the upmost faith in JJ Abrams, and I feel he will be able to give us something fresh and new.

    That being said, I really hope it's not dark siders. I'd prefer to see a big bad on a grander scale. I really think that, with a lot of tweaking, the general concept of the 'Ones' from TCW could work as a 'big bad'. I hope they don't use those characters themselves, but a mysterious ancient being with mythical understanding of the Force beyond the typical Jedi/Sith understanding would be awesome on screen. It'd open up an entire new level to the Force.
  25. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Well, if some of you guys don't want Sith, then what do you want? I can't imagine a legitimate threat to the galaxy other than the Sith.

    The Yuuzhan Vong, perhaps? A fleet of space pirates? New and more advanced Manadalorian armored terrorists? A group of demigod-like beings whose Force Abilities exceed anyone's who came before, much like the Anchorites? Some type of clone crisis? A droid revolution? A military coup, where a group of power hungry generals want to take over and run things themselves?

    I mean, what? It's all be done before, no?
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