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TFA Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001

    Doubt means to be uncertain or distrust something. We have reason to be uncertain or distrust the Emperor in that scene after viewing ROTJ, TPM, AOTC, and ROTS. It doesn't work perfectly once you watch four other movies of the Emperor plotting and scheming and betraying his servants. Specifically on the topic of a new apprentice.

    There becomes doubt at the idea that the character of the Emperor needed to be convinced with something as simple as "he would become a powerful ally." If anyone in that scene knows about using powerful allies and exchanging one apprentice for the other, it's Darth Sidious. Thus it becomes less believable that he didn't consider for one second the possible uses of Luke Skywalker or that if he did and dismissed it, someone saying something as simple and as obvious as "he would become a powerful ally" would suddenly change his mind.

    As for the other things you brought up...

    1) Anakin was nine or ten years old when the Emperor first took notice of him. Far too young to help him at that time (not like the clones were ready anyways) but something to use further down the road.

    2) When Anakin hesitated to kill Dooku, he still has two lightsabers at Dooku's throat. Quite different from Luke throwing his lightsaber away.

    3) When it comes to turning someone to the dark side, it comes down to that moment where the person gives into their fear, anger and hatred etc. The Emperor didn't spend 10 years turning Dooku but he passed the dark side test. Luke however did not.

    4) I am not arguing that Sidious did not see value in Vader once he was burnt up. He saw a man tortured and in pain who needed the Emperor more than ever. His hate keeping him alive. Plus it's not like there were many force trained people hanging around ready to step into the role as right hand man of the Emperor at the start of the Empire.

    Vader: "What of the reports of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?"

    Emperor: "It is of no concern. Soon the rebellion will be crushed and young Skywalker will be one of us."

    Turning Luke was just as much of a priority to the Emperor as it was crushing the rebellion. It's enough effort in regards to the films when he tries to bring Luke to him in the Bespin trap and it fails, so he tries again in the next movie.

    Darth Sidious betrayed and murdered Darth Plagueis. The possibility of any apprentice betraying him is always on the table.

    Two of those things he said while he was trying to draw the anger and hatred out of Luke and the other was said when the Emperor was angry and in the middle of killing him.

    That said, I don't think the Emperor thinks highly of the intelligence of anyone he is manipulating or plans to manipulate. He just cares about what they can do for him.
  2. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    Palpatine knew that the true battle wasn't Empire vs. Rebellion, but rather Jedi vs. Sith. Turning Luke was his highest priority. In fact, it was the main reason he came aboard the Death Star II. Overseeing construction was a cover-up.
  3. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Again with the baseless claims.

    And all of that isn't stronger than the dialogue and Palpatines actual actions (which were, as I might repeat, trying to kill Luke instantly after one failed turning attempt by him).

    Plus the OT is perfectly believable. Luke's personality was never very suited for being a Sith to begin with. He was about the most incorruptible person you could find and idealistic to boot. Do you think he would make a good enforcer o even Sith? I don't.

    Why was he convinced by Vader? Because the bastard is greedy and not so resistant to manipulation as he would like to think. For all his alleged wisdom he couldn't foresee that a father would try to protect his child.

    The fleet at Sullust is of no concern because it is an obvious diversion. Your quote proves that Palpatine was aware of that. He did say "soon the rebellion will be crushed", indicating that it was of importance to him.

    Plus I don't believe in a SW in which only force sensitives matter. The war was won only partially with the help of Luke Skywalker. Lando Calrissian and Han Solo were just as important.

    Also as I already pointed out, it was Vader who set up the Bespin trap. Palpatine did almost nothing back then (his phone call was more a distraction than help).

    His tone was quite different when he talked about Anakin though. He even boasted his abilities in front of Yoda. For Luke however he seemed to have nothing but contempt. I think Sidious does despise certain individuals more than he does others.
  4. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    At any point, the point seems to be about having fun. What other point would there ever be?:)

    To some of the other points being made: I think it's important to understand that, at this point, or any point, it might be best to consider how the writer(s) will interpret things like the Prophecy, Rule of Two, resurrection, immortality, the importance of other things established in the PT and OT. The most important goal they have right now is to make a great ST; a secondary goal (that is, less important goal) is try to maintain, as much as reason warrants, aspects of the plot and world that have been previously established.

    Since some of these aspects were originally thought up for a six film saga, it's safe to say that they, however important they might seem to some now, will be out on the table, open for possible change. That door opened the minute the ST was given the green light. Some of these possible changes will be up to the personal preference of the writers. For example, if they (and I'm speaking of all the people involved in the writing process) dislike a certain aspect (the prophecy) from the PT or OT, they may be looking forward to jettisoning it. Narratively speaking, this would be easy to do. I've mentioned before that the prophecy is vague, and that even the Jedi don't really understand it (in a way this is good, because it makes it easy to play with; thanks GL). We don't know what was actually said because the prophecy has simply been paraphrased to us via other characters. "The Chosen One will bring balance to the force." Obviously a line for the six film arc. Still, important things about it are open to interpretation. Was Anakin really the chosen one? You would think this would be unassailable, but it's not. Lucas said Anakin was the Chosen One, but the films never actually state it with authority. Maybe Luke was really the Chosen One? The writers could go that way if it works better for their ST. Or they could ignore it all together because, as we all know, nothing remains balanced forever. Maybe things like balance and the Prophecy were less debatable when Lucas was the only one in charge.

    So if the writers want to bring the Sith back -- and the Sith are a much more interesting plot aspect than the Prophecy (the former can be mined more, for example: there's much more that can be learned and developed in the films regarding them than a prophecy which was conceived only to bring some thematic unity to the PT and OT) -- it would be easy to do.

    Another issue for the writers will be to think of how some things might have changed from the PT to the OT. Was the Emperor shown to be a master manipulator? Yes. But by the time of the OT, he's also obviously overconfident and drunk on power (hence, his downfall). He's changed over time. This opens a door, if anyone wants it, to establishing that the Rule of Two was canned by the OT. Since the rule is never mentioned once in it, it can't be that important. In fact, in ESB, Palpatine is open to turning Luke although he already has an apprentice. Neither he nor Vader think of the Rule of Two as a problem when they discuss it. If they did, their conversation would be implying that they will be at war against one another soon (fighting for control of Luke, breaking the Rule), and yet they both agree to turn him, as though the Rule doesn't exist.

    With a six film arc that's now turning into a 9 film arc, especially over the span of time encompassing them all, there are going to be inconsistencies. This isn't a terrible thing, as some of them can be used for the benefit of the ST, rather than restricting its possibilities.
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    He does respect Luke for the potential danger he poses though:

    "He could destroy us"
    "The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi"
    "He would be a great asset"


    "He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force"
    "I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time, you will call me master"
    "Your hate has made you powerful. Fulfill your destiny - and take your father's place at my side"
  6. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Fair enough. He respected Luke strength. I don't think he respected his intelligence much, though. He does call him young fool.
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    From his perspective- anyone who would turn turn the post of Second Most Powerful Man in the galaxy, is a fool.
    eht13 and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  8. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Four Time PT Trivia Champ/GOAT/New Films Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 31, 2012
    But he calls him young fool only after he refuses to become Palpatine's apprentice. I think he would consider anyone who doesn't accept the dark side's power a fool.
    eht13 likes this.
  9. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    I doubt he would manipulate a young Jedi for an entire decade if he didn't have some respect for him. Nobody would invest so much on a project if he thought it was worthless.

    Luke on the other hand...
  10. Maharishineo

    Maharishineo Jedi Knight star 1

    Jul 25, 2013
    I don't think the Rule of Two was ever abandoned, even though it hadn't been mentioned. If it didn't exist in the OT, I don't think it would've been introduced in the PT. But more on the actual plot, and forgive me for not being able to provide exact quotes, but

    (a) When Luke surrenders to Vader on Endor and they are walking/talking alone, Vader asks Luke to join him and together they can rule the galaxy. There's no mention of the Emperor in these plans.
    (b) Emperor says to Luke to strike down his father and take his place next to him.

    In either case, there would be two: Vader/Palpatine as the master and Luke as the apprentice, with Luke deciding which he would serve. Then he and whomever he chose would dispose of the "third wheel" that would violate the rule.

    I understand your point on how they could manipulate the story and certain aspects of the plot but to me that one seems pretty clear and it would be disappointing to see them act like it wasn't a thing after the PT. Now if they explicitly said something like they are abandoning it (which inevitably means temporarily doing so) because they needed to create a Sith army to reclaim their place in the new films....
    Immortiss likes this.
  11. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    But Vader openly suggested turning Luke in TESB. Would be idiotic if he did with the ROT still in place. The EU (it's not worth much, but still) also explains that Plagueis and his pupil Sidious dropped the ROT.
    Dra--- and Circular_Logic like this.
  12. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    This is consistent with the Rule, but it is also consistent with how Sith are supposed to behave when there is no Rule. Scheming against one another and such. In fact, this seems to be more evidence that the Rule is not strictly in place, or not in place at all, or else there would be no scheming going on at all.

    Importantly, in (a), although there is no mention of the Emperor in these plans, there is also no mention that Luke wouldn't have his own apprentice, or that Vader is against training other Sith in general. It could simply be that Vader envisions them as ruling the galaxy and additional Sith warriors together.

    (b) is a similar sort of thing. Just because there is a master and apprentice structure, there is no suggestion there can't be other apprentices or master-apprentice structures.

    Overall, I believe the scene in ESB destroys a strict Rule situation. If the Rule were really in place, no way would these two be discussing such a thing. Turning Luke? Turning him into what?

    As you can see above, I don't think it's very clear at all. The first conversation between Sidious and Vader in ESB, if anything, suggests that the Rule has been dropped. The EU, as others have said, has already established the Rule as done, and it would actually make plenty of sense plot-wise since the Emperor we see in ROTJ is obviously drunk on power, and for that reason, feeling secure in his position, wouldn't have necessarily valued the Rule any longer.
    Darth Archimage and Darth_Pevra like this.
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    Am I the only one who misses when this thread was "Whose The Baddie?"?
    The Sith are willing to take actions that will lead to an attempt on their life if they're sure that the attempt on their life will fail. A good example of such actions would be working together in the first place. Sith aren't loyal to each other, they leech off each other and plot each other's deaths.
    Immortiss likes this.
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    Perhaps a bit- as other authors have noted:

    still- I could see Vader thinking Palpatine will believe that the plan for Luke is for Luke to be an "ordinary Dark Side adept"

    rather than "the new Apprentice" with Vader becoming the new Master and Palpatine becoming dead.
    Circular_Logic and Dra--- like this.
  15. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    That comic is hilarious and makes my point better than I can.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  16. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Mar 10, 2013
    Vader knows his time is up. He's been used. He had his purpose. Palpatine is looking for a new model Sith. Either Vader makes his move against Palpatine or Palpatine does to him what Palpatine had Anakin do to Count Dooku, under Palpatine's encouragement. Palpatine is aware that Vader may make his move against him with Luke. In TESB Vader makes his play to Luke and says, 'Join me....' and aid me in my empowerment and save me from my impending doom. When Vader tells the Emperor that a small rebel force landed on the Endor Moon, Palpatine says that he knows. When Vader further explains that his Son is with them, Palpatine says that it is strange that he didn't know this and questions Vader's intentions. Therefore, Palpatine makes sure that Vader brings Luke to him. Vader KNOWS why Palpatine is interested in his Son. Palpatine is arrogant enough at the point of ROTJ to think that Vader is so weak and dependent on him that he expects Vader to die, fall on his sword, for the purpose of Palpatine's advantage i.e., Luke as his new Apprentice Sith. Palpatine relies on the schism in the Skywalker Family to divide and conquer both Skywalkers...he miscalculated, for once it wasn't as he had foreseen.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    I'm ok with Sith. I'm not ok with Neo-Sith. I'm also not ok with the Jedi and Sith being doomed to fight each other for all time. That would be a violation of free will.
  18. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Mar 3, 2013
    Now onto some additional inane, crazy, and tangential speculation.

    What if Depa Billaba survived the raid on the Jedi Temple during Order 66? As some of you may know, she fell to the Dark Side and went insane early on in the Clone Wars. After a skirmish with her former Master, Mace Windu, she went comatose and was kept in the Temple for the duration of the war. Most have speculated that she was killed off, but perhaps she managed to survive and was taken away and cryogenically frozen until someone found a way to awaken her from her coma.

    Then, we get these shenanigans, just like [hl=gray]Khan-berbatch[/hl] in ST:ID.


    Of course, this is so not happening...
  19. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2012
    I can agree with this. At this point we are still limited to two choices to argue over:

    1. We assume the baddie will be someone we know to some degree and we can try and GUESS who that could be.


    2. We insist the baddie is a brand new and we can try and GUESS who/what it will be.

    That said, it makes way more sense to me that it's going to be someone we know, but that's partially because what we know is all we have to go on. I couldn't imagine it will be someone new because that would be like telling the future........

    We shall see.
    Immortiss and MiamiJedi like this.
  20. MiamiJedi

    MiamiJedi Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jan 26, 2013
    I agree. Episode VII is the continuation of the SAME story that began in Episode I.
    While some here may think Episode VII is going to be it's own saga with a storyline completely divorced from what occurred in episodes I-VI, others know better.
    Disney just purchased a group of the best known characters on the planet and they're just gonna say
    "no let's not use them, lets try something NEW and CREATIVE!!!!!"
    Ain't gonna happen.
    At least not in Episodes VII-IX.
    Palpatine is going to be the threat. Maybe Palpatine & Plageuis together? Hmm...
    Then Luke or his spawn can defeat them wearing an ancient Sith armor that resembles Vader's suit, just like Jango was a knock off Boba.. just to get that Fett armor in the movie..
    Dra--- likes this.
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    I always imagined redeemed Plaguies creating Anakin in his last breath to bring Palpatine to justice (mods, I'm not talking about the EU getting contradicted). Redeemed Anakin, redeemed Plagueis, and redeemed Palpatine could all be in the ST (have mercy on me, anti-resurrectionists).
    Dra--- likes this.
  22. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    Would you consider someone trained by Vader or Palps a neo-Sith?
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  23. gambit420

    gambit420 Jedi Master star 2

    Oct 14, 2003
    Dear lord.... I hope not. That sounds horrible!
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    "Horrible" doesn't even begin to cover it.

    Signed, Self Appointed Anti-Resurrectionist Queen.
  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    No way. They would be trained by a Sith to be a Sith. They would be a truer Sith than Vitiate will ever be. Exar Kun was the true successor of Ragnos and Sadow (Ragnos and Kun both said so and all three wanted the Sith Empire to be successful).
    Darth_Pevra, Immortiss and Dra--- like this.