ST Who's The Baddie?

I don't agree that they should be considered canon; not in any sense, except, perhaps, for the purpose of speculation. Only the films are canon, IMHO. As we know, Lucas changes his mind a lot, so he may often just be allowing writers to play around with his ideas in the books -- ideas that may be experiments or his current thought or simply pragmatic solutions that he's come up with to help the writer produce the book. It doesn't follow that he'll necessarily want to implement these ideas in the movies. Heck, even the films are not the sort of stable canon we might want (apparent contradictions between PT and OT; retcons/revisions). Still, by definition, the novels themselves are EU simply because they are not the movies, and because they are not actually written word for word by GL. They expand content, but are not written in stone Saga-wise.

It's a risky idea to base any arguments on the novels/EU because the movies might come out and pull the rug out from under you.

 

Yes, I've mentioned this in some of my older posts and thought that it was high time we saw Mandalorian armies in a variant suit. A writer could do the same with Vader's armor, in a variant. HegoDamask used the Crimson Warriors in his plot synopsis. I like that idea, too. The Death Watch suit was not an exact replica of Jango's or Boba's suit. They can make them evoke the characters, without having to resurrect each and every single character from the OT. These races didn't disappear from the Galaxy. I think we need to be shown that. I would love to see each of these ideas in a live-action SW movie.

 

I think the Sith should definitely be laid to rest. The Mandolorians would be bad ass in the next trilogy, but only if they do them properly, make them dark, tactical and bloodthirsty. That was kind of the idea of my "Crimson Warriors" except from they would be a unknown dark side order, far different from the Sith.
The only kind of villain with Sith connections who I'd be happy with would be one like the post Sith/Jedi Revan. A character who has seen both sides of the force and decides to dwell in the "grey" middle area as an anti-Jedi. It would completely change the way we'd view the force.

 

Yes, there may be a few minor things that the authors played with, but you are hiding from reality a bit here. The fact is, this is Lucas's story, not someone else's like the EU; it would be silly to say there isn't a much greater likelihood that what is in the novels was Lucas's actual material and ideas, and that this isn't much more likely to be predictive as far as what will come in the ST. Lumping them together and acting like they are the same (EU and PT/OT novels) is pure fallacy. In actual fact, some of the deleted scenes from the movies are in the novels, so it is literally true as far as what I was saying about material in the books not being present in the movies for the sake of time; just how much is up for debate aside from the deleted scenes, but it clearly is much more likely to be from the head of Lucas than anything else.

 

But as Pevra, I think, pointed out earlier, if the novels were canon then Obi-Wan would be Owen's brother. Lucas approved that novel too, I assume. It was his story then too? But it's not canon. Deleted scenes are not canon. Novelizations should not be canon either. Although Lucas approved them, we have no idea what ideas are actually his or what he simply tolerated. It's only guesswork what ideas are his or if he plans on sticking with them. If you're looking for a solid source into the Saga, the novels simply are not it. He also approved the Dark Empire series and the cloned emperor. Is that canon?

But feel free to argue from them if you like. I just don't think it provides any strength to the arguments.

 

Using the current Lucasfilm canon policy- novelization content that "comes from Lucas" is G-Canon, while that which originates with the author is C-Canon.

 

I think we can conclude that canon is fluid.

Anakin should have asked Qui-Gon, "What is a Sith?"

 

How can we tell which is which? In many cases it's vague. And even knowing what ideas came from Lucas doesn't mean they'll be used in the films.

People are free to decide what they want to use as canon. I think some of this is fine for speculation, but I personally don't take it very seriously. The films are the best source. The rest is open to change.

 

I find that tiered canon policy to be silly. I reject the entire notion of it

 

"G-canon" != part of GL's universe.

 

So what are we saying here then? The films are g-canon? All the books, novelizations and EU, are c-canon? Something more mixed?

 

Hey....so who's the villain?
How about they pull a "Vader/Fett" but with a dash of "Game of Thrones" where instead of us actually liking the villains (like we find him epic or cool) we just hate their guts (not cause they are poorly written/acted but because of the horrible things they do to our main characters). Like have the "Fett-like villain" (basicly side villain like how Joffrey and Walder Frey are in GOT) do something soo horrific that we are all torn on who we want dead first: The main villain *cause he most likely planned what that side villain did* or that side villain because he is the one who did it. I want to actually HATE villains. Now a days we have too many "Oh but you're supposed to pity him and see how much of a tragic person he is" villains. I want to rage-hate people the same way I rage-hate Joffrey and that darn Walder Frey (yep I still havn't gotten over Red Wedding. We should all be thankful that no matter how bad the OT3s deaths are, Red Wedding will still be worse).

 

What I'm saying is that there's the Lucasverse in which only the movies, TCW, and the intent behind them (which the novelizations sometimes reflect) are canon and everything else isn't. There's also the EUverse in which the tiered canon system is applicable.

I find any canon system for the EUverse besides "pick and choose what you like" to be silly.

 

I think the most GOT-Joffreyesque moments of Star Wars have been Tarkin's punking of Alderaan, and Anakin's youngling slaughter.

Maybe someone could destroy Coruscant? That would probably be a bigger loss of life than Alderaan. I also think Chewie and Han should die.

Edit on canon:

Has Disney stated whether or not TCW will be canon moving forward? Since they canceled it, it's possible they're going to ignore some or all of it.

 

no

 

Blowing up planets? You think too small. In order to hurt audiences you have to hurt their hearts. You wanna know what would be THE MOST controversial/devastating thing for the villain to do....kill the OT3 *and maybe a fan favorite new character* all at once in some horrific way then cut to the credits with no music so we are stuck in a silent theatre thinking only of the horrors we just saw with no comfort from the iconic Star Wars music. And then to rub salt in the wounds have the next film open with the villain blowing up tattoine and gloating that he killed the OT3 (and most likely he did not give Luke a honorable jedi funeral so thats kinda MORE hurtful). I legit can't think of anything worse for the villain to do. Can you imagine the madness that would cause? It would be beautiful

 

Maybe they should just slaughter the actual actors too?

Edit: You evil, Darth Claire.

 

I know I am. After watching Game of Thrones I am a changed person. Skrew happiness for the main characters. Everybody should suffer!

 

There should be a disease that causes babies to die before they're born!

 

I am a believer in killing main characters. It makes the audience unsure, they know nobody is safe.

 

Nah.....just pull a "Talisa" (Game of Thrones fans know what I'm talking about)
Now onto happier things: How should the villain die after he commits those horrible deeds?
EDIT: I also agree with the "main characters should die". Last thing I want is a series which is full of characters who we know wont die. It kinda decreases the suspense if we all know that the OT3 *and our new heroes* will live and suffer no major/long lasting ills outside of maybe a lost arm.

 

I didn't use the word "canon" anywhere, did you notice that? That is YOUR argument, and a meaningless one. Canon is a concept that is created and distorted by SW fans at will to support weak and pointless arguments. Canon is whatever those making the current movie or story decide to make it.

Actually, my argument is quite solid, as unlike yours, I am using the bigger picture, and not trying to use isolated examples that are clearly exceptional (The books clearly have a whole lot more similarities than differences, pointing out the minor differences doesn't change the bigger picture). Nothing is SOLID as far as what is to come, no one knows. But looking at Lucas's actual stories is clearly the most likely way to get an idea, and to try to make it like his stories (even if novelized by someone else) aren't more likely to be what the ST reflects is (again) silly. You can go on with all of the exceptions and tangential details you want, the general picture will not change.

 

This. I facepalm at the very concept of canon.

 

Just because you don't use the word canon, doesn't mean you don't believe in it. And you believe in it deeply, apparently, but you think you have the ability to distinguish canon from tenuous sources. I'm sorry you don't like counterexamples, but they show that picking and choosing "what's true" (i.e., what's canon) from the novels is problematic. Logically speaking, if only one aspect of the novels is made false in the films, then that makes it an unsure source. Reality is not general, and anyway, we're not arguing about big picture stuff (what big picture are you talking about specifically?), which makes it seem vague, but supposed specifics like how many Jedi Masters or Jedi Knights have gone dark. If we're not talking about specifics, then what's the point? What are we talking about? Maybe the films will use what's in the books, or maybe the writers will decide not to use it. We won't know what's true until we see the films. None of us have the ability to point to a particular line in a novel and say, That's canon for GL. Not unless it's appeared in film.

You and I aren't really disagreeing if you simply believe in using the best information we have for speculative purposes. But if you want to say that we know something for certain from the ROTS novel, then no, we disagree. That's not the case. Speculation > facts = how valid the source material from the novels should be taken. Feel free to use the novels as source material, it doesn't mean the rest of us have to take that leap of faith.

 

OK darklordoftech, I'm ready for the facepalm.