Speculation Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    How about the Sorcerers of Rhand?
    The Jedi aren't the only group with an evil counterpart. There's the Republic and the CIS and there's the Empire and the Rebellion.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Jan 6, 2014
  2. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Lucas does nothing without a reason. The name has meaning, like all the others present in the saga. I'll give you another example: Kenobi/Kenosis: is the 'self-emptying' of one's own will and becoming entirely receptive to God's divine will. That's what Ben did for 19 years in the Jundland Wastes. Another? (In)Sidious. The names are descriptive of the characters and their roles. Lucas is a fairly bright fellow. I don't think Palpatine was being 'vague' or 'cryptic'. He believed his story. You do. I don't.
    It is the most important scene in the PT. It contains the 'crux' of the entire story and it may be the scene that was constructed with a ST in mind. A storyteller constructs stories.
    No, not to begin the story with another Sith Master. But, perhaps an Immortal Sith Lord reveal in Episode IX.
    Was he deposed or elevated? The Sith equivalent to becoming 'more powerful than you can possibly imagine'.

    Again I disagree. The Skywalkers playing with the Force isn't a very good story. It needs conflict provided by the Sith. It is SW after all.
    You do realize that this is a Speculation thread, right? It's easy to argue with concrete facts about what we all know is in the films against one speculating on who they believe may be the villain in the ST based on the existing story. So far your posts argue for some thing of 'limitless possibilities for a new & original villain', while dismissing the idea of Plagueis because the movies told you so. Also, you've wrote a "reasons against" Plagueis in the ST in a speculation thread asking for your speculation on the subject. Looking forward to it.:p
  3. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    But the Jedi and Sith are both Force users with opposite philosophies. What would be the essential difference between them and the Whills if they were divided in the same way? And the Republic and the CIS is sort of a flawed comparison since there was a lot more gray area in both of those groups, but even so that's kind of my point. The saga is full of duality. For the final trilogy, I think it would be really interesting to explore something that totally transcends that duality and allows the story to end with more of a sense of unity than division. I think this is especially important at this point in our cultural history when so much of the way people think is essentially binary in nature, and IMO this way of thinking could easily lead to the ruin of our society and taken to its extreme conclusion maybe even humanity itself.
    Last edited by Mystery Roach, Jan 6, 2014
  4. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    I like this idea a lot, and I think I've said that before. The problem of the Whonts is they sort of undermine the Sith by simply being a bigger version of them. A bigger Sith in all but name.

    The Whills however, as you conceive them, doesn't undermine the Jedi or the Sith by simply replacing them, but they add something new to the dualistic struggle that challenges potentially both the Sith and Jedi.

    What is my favorite idea of the moment? One that no one likes apparently, which is totally cool. It's a weird idea that probably is too gross for general audiences. My Mordred idea, which I believe I posted in the poll.

    The idea is that some Sithy or Imperial experimenter or mad scientist thinks that by combining the DNA or Luke and Leia, the direct offspring of the Chosen One, they can create a being powerful enough to destroy the Jedi, or at the very least, mess with the Skywalker's minds so much that they are more easily defeated.

    Like Mordred, who was the incestuous offspring of King Author and Morgan le Fay, this new Skywalker can be both a personal and general threat, to family and kingdom. One of things I love about Mordred is how he's usually depicted as both loving and hating his father, which creates an interesting drama and even acts as a sort of myth to how family members feel deep ambivalence about each other.

    Mordred wouldn't have to be a Sith, but he might believe he's entitled to rule over everyone as a sort of divine right. I suppose the key question is: would the Skywalker grandchildren be able to accept this person into their family, or feel as though he or she is illegitimate? Could this monstrous child be accepted by the followers of the lightside, or could they only be accepted by the dark?

    I think this would relate to the main themes of the saga: family, parent-child relationships, the sins of the past coming back to haunt, the dangers of technology. Anakin was born of the Force or Sith experimentation (or both). Mordred would be totally unnatural. Like a clone, the question of the legitimacy or pureness of their soul would be a big question.

    Anyway, other experiment villains I'm interested in:

    The Evil Chosen One.
    Force Monsters.

    And no one has commented on my idea for a badass droid army designed to look like Vader. Would that be cool or would it suck? I don't know.

    @Mystery Roach:
    1,800 Likes for this thought!

    So you know, I've written papers before where I argued that binary thought actually creates injustice in the world by limiting the possibility of legitimate moral choices.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 6, 2014
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  5. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I'm not sure how I feel about your Morded idea, but it's an interesting one at any rate. Just not sure it feels quite right for this saga, or at least my current view of it. I'd be open to seeing how it played out though.

    I don't think I'd be on board with a Vader droid army. Maybe if there was just a hint of a resemblance it could be cool, but I feel that if it were too on the nose you'd really run the risk of it feeling like way to much of a forced method of getting that iconic image into the ST.
    Dra--- likes this.
  6. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I created the "Whont" name as a joke. I didn't mean to imply that they would actually be called that.

    Anyway, I hate the Sith for undermining Palpatine and would love it if they got undermined back.

    About your Mordread and Vader-droid ideas, I will think about them and let you know if I develop an opinion on them.
    Dra--- likes this.
  7. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Agree on both counts. Mordred is probably not family friendly enough -- or perhaps they're too family friendly. ;) Anyway, I love the homage to Luke and Leia kissing in the OT.

    I think the Vader bots would only work if they had some marginal resemblance. Black armor, and maybe skullish faces? @The Hellhammer?

    EDIT: @darklordoftech
    Please. lol
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 6, 2014
  8. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    What does that mean? Is it a meme I'm not aware of?
  9. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Mordred? I didn't comment because I didn't know to what it referred, but after looking at the wikipage, I'm absolutely for it. Some kind of SW treatment would fit perfectly in the mythology. An illegitimate child of Anakin, right?

    As you know I'm kind of stuck on zombie armies and never thought of the re-introduction of any kind of droid army. I've always liked the idea of a Sith Army and I have imagined them in Vader suits. For the last trilogy and end saga I've hoped they present a multiplication of Vaders and Mandalorians. I like the idea of enlarging everything. Give us the full blown SW treatment.
    Dra--- likes this.
  10. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    When I said I didn't like the name, I didn't mean I thought you actually meant they would be called that. Only that after reading it enough times it's starting to get under my skin a little. I understand where you're coming from with it, but to me it not only undermines the Sith but the Jedi as well, since having another group of opposing Light and Dark Side users doesn't really create a different enough situation to justify their existence IMO. Having the Wills be both at once, however, brings something new to the table. And really it still undermines both groups anyway but in what I think is a more interesting way, since it begs the question of whether it's a good idea to even choose a side, or if there is a way to find a balance (hey there's that word) between the two in a way that isn't destructive to the self or the galaxy as a whole.

    And I still don't get why you have such a problem with the Sith or Palpatine being one. It makes perfect sense to me that someone who was shown to have a mastery of the Dark Side and who managed to eradicate the Jedi and build an Empire would be a member of an Order which stands in opposition to the Jedi. I like some of your ideas a lot but sometimes they seem so contradictory, like hating the Sith and black-robed villains, yet having someone who is both as your Avatar. I'm not trying to be aggressive by saying this, it just confuses me sometimes.
  11. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    The reason that I hate Palpatine being a Sith is because it undermines him. It reduces him from an awesome individual to just the latest in a long lineage. I prefer he have accomplished it all on his own.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Jan 7, 2014
  12. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    I'd like a Sith army. But what makes me think it improbable is that Star Wars tends to stay away from massive bloodshed. I think that's why Lucas picked a droid army in the PT. If not, you get the Jedi slashing arms and legs off living beings left and right. In the OT this wasn't a concern since lasers were the main weapon that dropped stormtroopers left and right, which wasn't gory. So if there's a major army in the ST, I find it likely it will be something that can be carved without too much angst by Jedi for a family audience. This means droids or monsters, or maybe some kind of weird inhuman aliens.

    As for Mordred, the real grotesque aspect has to do with incest. In Excalibur for example, my favorite version of the Arthur-Mordred myth, Arthur's evil sister Morgan le Fay beds her half-brother by appearing to him via magic as Guenevere. She gives birth to Mordred and raises him to hate Arthur, telling him that Camelot should be his.

    I never really envisioned Mordred as Anakin's child, but as a child who was the product of a mad scientist, even Plagueis. But the whole idea would be to splice Luke and Leia's DNA together in order to produce a force powerful child who would be a curse on the Skywalker family. Perhaps meant to be the Chosen One/Vader's rightful heir.

    It's a bit dark for Star Wars probably, but not for me!

    EDIT: And anyone who reads here regularly knows that two of the other ideas I've argued for are Lady Vader, which @Darth_Pevra and I have speculated about, as well as the Sith Purebloods or a group like them seeking revenge against the old Republic and old Jedi Order. Lady Vader wouldn't be a Sith either, but someone looking for revenge on the Skywalkers for destroying/turning Vader at the end. She could either be Vader's daughter or a wife he was forced to marry by Palpatine. I originally conceived of her as Palpatine's mad daughter Lady Zel.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 7, 2014
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  13. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    Disagreeing with people's theories is all part of the discussion. I've posted my own thoughts before. I think the bad guy will be:

    - A Thrawn type who gathered & unified what was left of the Imperial Fleet.
    - A fallen apprentice of Luke, Jacen Skywalker style
    - A completely left field unknown evil Force user
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
  15. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    A retread of the EU, so lacks imagination. And the Thrawn (yawn?) era EU is already a retread of the OT. How many warlords have they had in the EU? The Star Wars website just listed a ton. Rebels will have plenty of Imperials, but now it needs to be in the ST too? No thanks.

    Also, why would there still be Imperials 30+ years after ROTJ? Makes little plot sense.

    A fallen apprentice? Didn't we just see that in the PT, and in the EU many times? I smells a corpse rising, and it's not immortal.

    Why should anyone care? Sounds completely unrelated to the previous six films. Might as well say right field. Or an evil clown army.
    Last edited by Dra---, Jan 7, 2014
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  16. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    Forget the EU, the average movie goer doesn't know anything about it. Doesn't matter that it's similar to some novel from the 90's.
    Why doesn't it make sense for a high ranking Imperial to have rallied part the fleet, jumped to hyperspace somewhere & either settled on another world or formed an alliance with some other powerful system/organisation? In the ST they may try to conquer the New Republic. If that was the storyline would you be sitting there thinking "this doesn't make sense!" ?

    Yep it risks seeming repetitive. However it being Luke's apprentice & Han & Leia's child may bring some powerful emotion to the story.

    That's the job of the writers, director & actor - to make us care. If it's done well & it's a compelling character then we'll surely be happy. If it's a great villain are we really going to complain that he wasn't mentioned in the prev 6 films? There's nothing wrong with a new threat emerging. It's a big dangerous galaxy. Anyway if they have the Dark Side as their ally that will be the consistency to the previous films' villains.
  17. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    The point is that the Imperial plot is totally threadbare, completely unoriginal. It's a ripoff of the OT, which showed the Imperials defeated. It's a ripoff of Rebels, which will show the Imperials in their prime. It's a cheap ripoff of not just one EU novel, but many, which is not good if you want Star Wars fans to be excited.

    The plot doesn't make sense because we 1) already saw the Imperials defeated in ROTJ. What does Anakin's sacrifice mean if the Imperials (not even the Sith) are still trucking along? 2) Luke has had 30 years to rebuild the Jedi and the Republic and some 80 year old Imperial is still the big bad? How weak is that? Very. Even the EU has wrapped up the Imperial Remnant stuff, but you want to recycle this finished plot for the ST? Pretty shameful and uninspired.


    It doesn't risk seeming repetitive. It is.

    Sorry, I thought you said you wanted to share your idea with us. If you don't care about making us care, why should we even read it? Basically this idea amounts to "new darksider" with no new information. It's so vague it's pointless to even respond.

    I'll stop.
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  18. Odolwa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    @Dra---
    Some baddies i wouldn't mind

    1. Sith PureBloods - They Purged the Humans and other species from their ranks and went into deep secrecy to rebuild and plot.
    Possibly they reemerge as peace makers, (Under a name not involving "Sith") "The Tragic Tale of our species Due to the Jedi and Sith" type of story, The galaxy having gone through Palpatine and Vaders rule obviously relate, And a galaxy wide ban on force users begins, Mainly the Jedi, Which is what the Sith Purebloods intended.

    2. The Rakata - They lost their connection to the force during their reign, So maybe something to do with finding Mortiss as to somehow reignite their connection to the dark side of the force, Or some other type of Extremely ancient device. And have their revenge on the Je'daii. (As they are pretty much extinct im not sure how it would work, Some hidden planet in the deep core and they gathered and army and have some ancient super weapon or something) I'm not sure how people feel about rakata but i think they are pretty interesting. Kwa and the infinity gates could be involved in this.

    3. Unknown Dark Side entity - A being from a Far away galaxy that was empty and dying, A lonely and horrible place, Possibly due to him. Finds way into the star wars galaxy, Maybe by way of something like a infinity gate, Or just some spaceship that's been floating through space for thousands of years.
    The light of the jedi is new to him, The dark of the sith is but a tiny spec of the darkness inside him/her. Ruling has no meaning to him, Life, Light, family, Laughter are all things he never knew existed in his old lonely galaxy, He hates it. He Or She. Balance is needed to survive, Sith and jedi become one.
    Not to be confused with some sadistic destroyer like Abeloth, Someone more lonely, Who grew in the dark of an entire empty Galaxy

    4. The Sith'ari - This could be someone like plageuis, Returned to life as the Sith'ari, The sith'ari is supposed to destroy the sith then make them even stronger than before, Technically Plageuis destroyed the sith with his shenanigans that led to the creation of Anakin, Maybe when Sidious and Anakin died the Darkside was left without anyone to control it so to speak, This helping Plageuis touch the world outside of the netherworld and rip himself free of his Spirit Prison.
    Or even go back to Number 3, A new being from another Galaxy, Pure dark side, When he comes, All the scum and villainy like sith and other dark siders unite behind him.

    I wouldn't mind just some new Sith either, Like Darth Krayts One Sith Etc. I dont think it will harm anything to keep it a simple evil vs good fight, not any out of control "Luke, A portal to hell opened on tattooine, Looks like you got to fight Super Sidious in hell!" stuff. None of this is really connected to the first six films but...only so much you can do there.
    Last edited by Odolwa, Jan 7, 2014
  19. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    The very reason it's been used so much & that it's "unoriginal" is that it's a blatantly obvious part of the story post RotJ. You say the Imperials were defeated but all we really know is that Palpatine was defeated. Firstly there was a massive fleet still intact in the Endor system. Since our heroes were all high fiving & laughing on Endor after the DS was destroyed we can assume that particular fleet retreated to who knows where. Then there's the question of the vast Imperial fleet throughout the whole of the Empire - hundreds or thousands of systems. There were high ranking officers, Admirals, regional governors, Moffs. Yes this has been addressed in the EU but the movies are a standalone story. GL wants people to eventually sit down & view this as one continuous saga. What happened to the Empire's vast war machine will need to be addressed in some way in the ST & may well play a large part of the story. It doesn't have to be a Thrawn retread either. Use your imagination, there are a hundred interesting & creative ways an evil force could align itself with what's left of the Imperials.

    Also your reasons against this concept are nonsensical. Anakin defeated the Sith & brought balance to the Force, not destroyed the whole of the Imperial fleet.
    You're making an assumption that Luke is rebuilding the Republic. He may have nothing to do with it.
    The bad guy doesn't have to be 80, he could be Luke or Han's age. How old was Tarkin??
    This is not a "finished plot point" in the movies. You seem unable to divorce your knowledge of the EU from this discussion.

    & Star Wars isn't repetitive!? That's one of its hallmarks, repeated themes. Haven't you noticed that?

    Leave the straw man alone! You said we wouldn't care about a new villain who hasn't been a part of the previous 6 movies. I'm saying we will if it's a well developed, well written, well performed character. Just like in any movie.
    Last edited by Darth_Downunder, Jan 7, 2014
  20. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    Why can't anyone make a suggestion as to who they think the villain will be, and give the rest of us some kind of reason as to why/how they came to their decision? If its just something you want to see, say so. If you really think it will be something particular, tell us why.

    Thank you.

    :D
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  21. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    I want the second tier villain to be played by Vincent Price so that Lee, Cushing, and Price were all in the individual trilogies. I am disappointed by the lack of Vincent Price in advance.
  22. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4

    I think they should keep it in the Hammer family... how about Michael Gough?
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  23. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    I give up. When people don't even know what a straw man argument is yet insist on responding as though they do, there's no point in responding (to them).

    Here's a hint: instead of arguing against A because A is too difficult to defeat, someone instead argues against B, which is not related to argument A and is easier to defeat.

    When I tell you that your idea A is vague, I'm not changing the subject to B. I'm pointing something true out about A: that it lacks detail. That it's so trivial or general it doesn't amount to anything substantive. That is a critique of A, not B.

    In fact, when you stop talking about your idea A, and instead start talking about straw men, you yourself are actually engaging in a strawman argument.

    So, to say that a vague idea could be great if the writers do a great job is obvious. We can say that about any idea. Hence, that is not a strong argument for your idea. What would make your idea interesting, even strong, is if you gave a few details to flesh it out. Then we could really consider the substance of your idea.

    But if you lack specifics, that's a real problem for you. Not for me, the one pointing it out.

    I would love to see some of you with the vague ideas propose them to JJ or Lucasfilm.

    You: "Hey, what about some new great character?"

    JJ: "Awesome. What is it?"

    You: "A new great villain!"

    JJ: "Ok. I'm listening... What else?"

    You: "They are a brand new darksider."

    JJ: Ok, ok. Good...and?"

    You: "They are totally totally new. From left field."

    JJ (scratching his head): So do they have a backstory? Male, female? Do they have a name? What's their motivation?"

    You: "They are iconic."

    JJ: "Right. Don't you have any details? This idea seems sort of vague."

    You: "Vague? Don't throw that strawman at me! This is an all new iconic villain!"

    JJ: "Hey, thanks for coming by, but I'm heading off to lunch now."

    You: "Why don't you listen to my ideas? Why don't you get to work fleshing them out for me. New and iconic: did you get that? Get to work!"

    JJ: "Security!"
  24. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    @Dra--- How would you feel about a Sith who's Palpatine in all but name?
  25. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    I would feel chitinous.

    As for what I would think: what does that matter here?

    Thought is not taken seriously in this thread. Only sophistry and sophomorism.

    Ok, maybe someone else is reading: I think I might not be too interested in a Palp in all but name.

    Did I play your laconic game right? What did I win? Let it be cheese.