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ST Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
  2. Darth Archimage

    Darth Archimage Jedi Master star 3

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    May 28, 2013
    Immortiss, LunarMoth, I truely enjoy reading your posts and learning each of your perspectives. I am in no way trying to pick a fight, I'm just not seeing Plagueis the same way the two of you (and probably many others) are.

    I understand that the following from the Plagueis novel is just a breif excerpt and that I may be taking it out of context (or just don't read it as others do), but it is my belief that if Plagueis did cheat death, it was only temporary -- a very short period of time just to make Palps think he was dead.
    From my interpretations, Plagueis' expertise was with the midichlorians, namely those which belong to his own body and the bodies of his test-cases. My assumption is that when he died, both his body and his trained midis would be very important in the cheat. I could see where these midis might be trained to hang around for hours, days, maybe even a week, but I don't buy them lingering and waiting around 30+ years after his death. How would he even command the midis if they did? How would they retrieve his body?

    Also if Plagueis' methods of cheating death involved hanging around as a Ghost for a number of years, I would have thought that the book would go into more detail on how he would accomplish this. i.e asking his test subjects what they saw when they were dead, or specific details on the whills. (maybe I'm missing where this happened).

    I still very much like the Plagueis option as the baddie, I even wrote a treatment that included his death lasting until after the Emperor was exterminated. My current theory however is that his death was planned for accordingly and that he was revived by his midis shortly after Palps lightening striked. This of course puts a big damper on the Prophecy, which I'm still trying to work out in my head.
     
  3. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    In the latter half of the book, Plagueis role becomes smaller and smaller while Palpatine becomes more and more important. The book then focuses on politics and assassination attempts almost exclusively. Here and there you get some snippet of Plagueis' experiments and not more.

    I sometimes wonder if Luceno was forced to give Palpatine a larger role.
     
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  4. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I was under the impression that the maladian attack on Plagueis resulted in Sidious becoming "the master" and Maul becoming "the apprentice". Respirator-wearing Plagueis was a delusional ex-master who dismissed the apprentice right under his nose as an "assasin".
     
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  5. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    That interpretation makes a lot of sense.

    I have also noticed that Plagueis himself became more and more removed from where the really important things were happening, instead preferring to isolate himself while Palpatine amassed more and more power. I wonder: Just how did he think he could rule his pupil when Palpatine had so much more political power?
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That said, he did seem to be healing himself. Though I suppose that could be all part of his delusion.
     
  7. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    Darth Archimage
    The book also made it a nice little point to tell us that his body was preserved.

    I wouldn't say he was hanging around as a ghost for all the in between years, but rather "finding his way back" if we are to see him.
     
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  8. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    "Sith" just doesn't carry any menace with it (for me at least). It just puts me to sleep as I wait for them to kill each other off.
     
  9. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    Is that why you have a Sith avatar and name that pay homage? :p

    I think you are a closet Plagueis supporter......... :D


    Just playin'
     
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  10. Darth Archimage

    Darth Archimage Jedi Master star 3

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    May 28, 2013

    I must have missed that point. Was it in the prologue when Plagueis had just been electrocuted or at the end of the book?
    What about the midichlorians -- do we assume the stayed with the body?
     
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  11. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    I don't recall exactly where that point is made. Obviously after Palps attack, but Im not sure if its in the final chapter or so or the prologue. There was no specific mention of the mids that I remember. I wouldn't think they stayed with the body, but would assume they return to the body when he gets there....?

    I'll see if I can find the text.
     
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  12. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 3, 2013
    Plagueis' studies on the Force yielded the concepts of an anima and a pneuma, both part of the Living Force. The anima was said to govern life, while the pneuma governs consciousness. It is interesting what Plagueis had to say about the pneuma in Book of Sith:
    Basically, this covers how Palpatine was able to survive via cloned bodies in Dark Empire. The second comment also notes how had Darth Bane been successful in his essence transfer attempt, he would have successfully co-inhabited the mind of his apprentice. However, his last line is intriguing, since it suggests that Plagueis might have found a way to transfer his consciousness as well based on his studies on the pneuma. Perhaps it would take him many years to find another body to inhabit, or to reclaim his old form through midi-chlorian manipulation, but I suspect that if Plagueis did indeed survive, it would be through his understanding of the pneuma as well as midi-chlorian manipulation.

    OTOH, the quote you provided suggests that Plagueis might have been too prideful to consider other possibilities of cheating death, like essence transfer or clone bodies...so this might be out of the question. Still, all of this is EU anyway and if the ST decides to bring back Plagueis, who knows how faithful they would remain to the novel and other writings about the character?
     
  13. Randwulf Crescentmoon

    Randwulf Crescentmoon Jedi Master star 4

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    May 25, 2013
    Whenever I think of the term summoning, it ultimately reminds me of Final Fantasy, and the level of detail therein. If Star Wars could copy and paste themes from FF, it would be the complete package of awesome for this fan, heh-heh. If only...

    I would love to see that explored on-screen, though, as the episodes in TCW featuring the witches of Dathomir, and Mother Talzin were some pretty wicked highlights from the show throughout its' run. As much as I hate to admit it, CGI is made for that kind of thing, and would do wonders for any such attempt to be made in the ST.
     
  14. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Yep - you make some very good points. I think the key point, complexities and interpretations aside, being that Plageuis was obsessed with cheating death (as was Bane before him). This is alluded to in ROTS and is examined more closely in the novel. If it's something that Plageuis found impossible to fulfill, it at least suggests that Palpatine took on the mantle (given that his master "taught him everything he knew").
     
  15. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

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    Mar 10, 2004
    I get that. I just still don't see how it wouldn't undermine the prophecy. I think it would be a huge cop out where the prophecy is concerned something like that would probably end up resulting in my dismissing the ST entirely.
     
  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    I tend to agree. This ancient prophecy is 100s if not 1000s of years in the making and after it's finally fulfilled someone is able to escape and return 30 plus years later? How does that not undermine it? How could this all knowing Force not have foreseen something like that? I like the idea that Plagueis or Palpatine think they were able to escape the prophecy but that they're eventually proven wrong.
     
  17. niel6658

    niel6658 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 29, 2013
    Darth Chiznuk
    "Maybe misread the prophesy could have been". This is more or less what Yoda tells Obi Wan and Mace before leaving to aid the Wookies on Kashyyyk in ROTS.

    Like with so many other things in life, they are not always what we believe them to be, once they actually occure. Maybe the prophecy whas about the destruction of the old Jedi Order and not the Sith. The Jedi Order is "extinct" until Luke return's as a Jedi in ROTJ.

    Maybe Yoda only understood the real meaning of the prophecy after his duel with Palpatine and decides to escape the Jedi-slaughter by going into exile on Dagobah.
     
  18. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 10, 2013
    First, I recall he had the ability to command the midi-chlorians out of the body of an individual in proximity. He murdered his enemy, Ars Veruna, by commanding his midi-chlorians "back to their source". So he had a power over midi-chlorians beyond himself and his subjects. I suppose the next step would be the ability to call them back ('create life').

    Next, I've speculated that he had the ability to retain his midi-chlorians whist making them and himself completely dormant. As I recall he had the ability to go undetected, even in close proximity to Sidious. He was able to draw upon the Force and bury his identity deep within himself. Accepting Force Lightening is supposed to make a Sith stronger. Perhaps he's more powerful as a result.

    Also, there's the question of 11-4D. Being a medical droid there may be something to him in the story. I loved the whole concept of Aborah, which sounds like lABORAtory, and the whole H.G. Wells "The Island of Dr. Moreau" thing. It's complete Lucas construction.

    Last of all, considered that he may have inhabited or possessed the Chosen One himself. Given the fact that Anakin killed Sidious, the 'mortal' enemy of Plagueis, and some of the dialogue in the PT (Anakin's and Sidious' Opera Scene) has persuaded me to entertain this possiblity, however insane.

    I wouldn't doubt that Plagueis' body is on his icy homeworld of Mygeeto (Megiddo) awaiting a reawakening.

    As for the prophecy and prophecies in general, they are often misread in mythology. Rarely do mortals understand them. I don't believe we'll get a definitive answer on it as well we shouldn't. Leave it to the interpretation of the audience.
     
  19. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Palpatine is awesome for reasons other than being called a "Sith" and I created my account before the ST was announced. Before the ST was announced, I didn't give as much thought to what could and what should happen after ROTJ.
     
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  20. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    niel6658 I take Yoda's line in ROTS as a classic red herring meant to cast doubt on Anakin's legitimacy once he turns to the dark side. I agree that it could be used to retcon the prophecy but I don't believe that's what Lucas intended and I hope it's not the way they take the story.
     
  21. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    Space Opera is precisely a mix between sci fi and fantasy. So no problems with vampires in it.

    One of the most famous examples of space vampires in Space Opera is Mario Bava's Planet of the Vampires (1965).

    Then we have Tobe Hooper's Lifeforce in the 80s, where a lifeforce sucking naked vampiress comes down to England starts draining people.

    Space vampires is not a very new idea, but I don't hate it. But considering how cliche vampires are today, I can't think of a worse direction for the ST to go.

    EDIT: It's true that Palp and Plagueis are similar. They are both "phantom" villains. But they aren't completely reducible to each other either. Immortiss and I and many others have discussed at length the differences between them that make us like Plagueis better for the ST. My favorite aspect of Plagueis is he is also a Mad Scientist. He's also much more interested in immortality than Palpatine, who focused more on corporeal power. So the argument that they are basically the same person only works if you ignore the interesting differences.

    Having said that, they could bring Palp back by superimposing these differences onto him.
     
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  22. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

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    Mar 10, 2004

    I agree that this was its purpose in ROTS but I wouldn't put it above Lucas to latch onto it as a window for expansion in the ST. If people can argue that about Plagueis then surely it applies here.

    Edit: Just to be clear, I don't think the Prophecy could have meant for Anakin to destroy the Jedi. I wouldn't take it as far as "Anything Goes" (to quote the post below mine), but it definitely has some wiggle room now within certain limits.
     
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  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Agreed. "Prophecy misread" = "anything goes" does seem like a cop out to me.

    Anyway, if the Sith appear, the characters shouldn't be surprised. The Sith already faked extinction. In fact, Episode VII could open with some Jedi investigating rumors of Sith activity.
     
  24. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    Thirty years after his death? Nah. My theory is that he fooled Sidious, his body was recovered by IBC the next day, he awakens from his supposed death before his funeral, kills everyone that knows he survived, and then goes into hiding. Once the reigning Sith are destroyed, he returns and plots to take over the New Republic in secret for the next thirty years. But this time it won't be with a highly ambitious protege. No, he'll be more careful this time and groom his apprentice from infancy, with a devoted loyalty akin to a father and son relationship.
     
  25. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Wouldn't Plagueis undermine Palpatine? Plagueis returning would take Palpatine's treacherous victory away.
     
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