Speculation Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    Oh yeah? What do you think of a Force sensitive caterpillar who struggles with his or her weight and goes on a diet that makes them fall to the darkside?
  2. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    I think you just cracked the question of this thread, congrats! No need for further discussion. :p
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  3. Dra--- Chosen One

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    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    We haven't even touched ticks or parasites yet.
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  4. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Oct 31, 2012
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    Ok... Palpatine is resurrected as a tick residing on Chewbacca's rear end. Karma's a *****! :p
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  5. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    There was that new poster's idea in the plot thread that was pretty cool. Palp intended to be blown up in the DS so that he could achieve ultimate power.

    Someone should post it here.
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  6. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Pevra’s post about the Sith not being entities of “pure darkness” really intrigued me. With the notable exception of Sidious, every Sith Lord we see in the films doesn’t appear to be pure evil, possessing some shades of gray. Maul (from what we see of him in TCW) showed that he did care for his brother, as much as he tried to repress these feelings under his Sith training. Tyranus seemed to genuinely believe that joining the Sith, destroying the Jedi Order, and reforming the Republic was what was best for the galaxy. And of course, Vader was internally conflicted and it was only after he learned Luke was his son that emotions long buried were reawakened, eventually allowing Luke to reach through to his father.

    What if this also applied to Plagueis? Although he was mentioned in only a few lines in RotS, how Sidious described his old Master, that he could “keep the ones he cared about…from dying,” really intrigued me. Did Plagueis really care for anybody, or was he your typical selfish Sith? On the surface, the novel seems to indicate the latter, but I found a few passages seem to suggest that perhaps Plagueis did care for others, in his own perverse way, including subjects for his midi-chlorian manipulation experiments.

    Note this passage in particular, where Plagueis converses with Sidious in his laboratory island of Aborah:
    Indeed, these “creatures and beings”, the subjects of his twisted experiments, were the ones that he cared about; you may even say loved, as he himself put it.

    There are more passages to suggest that he wasn’t as psychopathic as his apprentice, who cared for no one but himself. Early in the novel Plagueis attempts to stow away on a small ship, the Woebegone, before being discovered by the crew. He at first made an effort to resolve the situation without violence, but when it became evident that that wasn’t going to happen, Plagueis killed them all. Still, it was an effort, even if he didn’t approach it diplomatically like a Jedi would. Furthermore, look at the Muun’s relationship with Sidious. He was willing to let his apprentice in on all of his plans and ideas, confiding in his pupil his own hopes and dreams; achieving immortality, conquering the Force, and ruling the galaxy together with his apprentice, as the power behind the throne. There is evidence to suggest that he was truly proud of his apprentice’s accomplishments, even was he was manipulating Sidious to his own ends. I felt Plagueis appreciated Sidious’ earnest efforts at securing the galaxy’s trust to ensure the completion of the Grand Plan, to the point where at the end of his days Plagueis entrusted Sidious to handle all matters of the ‘profane’ world completely while he focused entirely on his research into discovering how to live forever. It makes one wonder, would a galaxy ruled by Plagueis be better than one ruled by Sidious (assuming both reigns last the same amount of time)? An interesting question to ponder.

    So the point is, Plagueis appears to be a more than one-dimensional, pure evil villain like Palpatine was, he was capable of “love without compassion”. Assuming he is the main ST baddie, I wonder if he would show this side of himself when interacting with his subordinates, or whether he’d learned his lesson from the mistakes (?) he made with his erstwhile apprentice and keep his minions on a tighter leash now. Still, I’d like it if the main Big Bad, if they are indeed a Sith, to show that they aren’t a “pure evil”, completely sociopathic villain incapable of empathizing with others like Sidious. I’d love for a more complex villain, and I truly believe Plagueis can fit this bill.
    Last edited by Circular Logic, Feb 5, 2014
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    As loath as I am of mentioning Plagueis, he was a psychopath in the novel. I'm not sure he properly understands the concept of love. The small hints in the other direction don't amount to much.

    This seems to contradict the movie Plagueis who was said to care.

    I would prefer the movie version. Pure psychopaths more often than not bore me.
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  8. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
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    Speaking of this, I always loved the idea of Plagueis finding out about Force-ghosting and turning to the light side, leading Palpatine to murder him.
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  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    That's an interesting idea. I would read the book.
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  10. jedijax Force Ghost

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    May 2, 2013
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    Plaguis was never an enemy of the Jedi per say. He was unknown and undetected for many years and even with Palpatine as his apprentice, he never threatened the Jedi. As a Sith, he simply co-existed with the Jedi. If he somehow still exists, it would be interesting if he ended up as an ally to the Jedi, bringing true balance to the Force.

    Perhaps Palpatine does come back in some form or another and Plaguis actually helps the Jedi fight true defeat over him in exchange for eternal life as a ghost.
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  11. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

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    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    I would describe the most important Sith this way:
    Sidious: the politican a scheming egomaniac, the seducer: Absolute power!!!
    Maul: the acrobatic pawn, not really a Sith of his own choosing, but since he was acquired by Sidious as a baby, he was merely a tool of Sidious like a dog
    Dooku: the charismatic Tactican, was seduced by Sidious and made to believe that he could end the corruption in the Republic by destroying it, another pawn
    Vader: the Chosen One, powerful beyond measure, disillusioned like Dooku but with too much emotion, Sidious's ultimate pawn
    Plagueis: the scientist, more interested in understanding and controlling the force than using it to accuire power.
    Bane: the reformant, the only truly selfless Sith, who was truly interested in furthering the cause of his new rule in that he was trying vainly to find a suitable successor. He sought to prolong his life, but only to be able to search for a new apprentice, when he doubted the abilities of his present one.

    What becomes obvious is that Sidious didn't ever try too groom a successor, he only employs his apprentices as pawns to increase his own power. He is not interested in sharing or giving up his power, he wants to hold and increase it. Basically he holds his apprentices on a short leash, he is afraid that they might get too powerfull so that they can overthrow them. He uses the Force as a means to increase his personal power. He is the antithesis of Bane's Rule of Two. Plagueis on the other hand is not interested in ruling the galaxy, but sees it as a necessity to be able to conduct his studies without interference. The Jedi do not have to die because he hates them, but because they will not tolerate his studies.
    IMO it would have been interesting how a Sith order comprised of Plagueis, Dooku and Vader would have worked out...

    @jedijax: Exactly

    On a side note: because someone mentioned Jinn not vanishing and becoming a Force ghost, the same could be said of Vader who did not vanish.
    Last edited by TtheForceHurts, Feb 6, 2014
  12. Corvax855 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 2
    I can't really see this happening at all. While Plagueis would occasionally coexist with, and even use the Jedi for his own purposes (Sifo Dyas for example), he was DEFINITELY not on their side, nor would he ever be. Almost everything he did (or plotted) in the novel ran 100% counter to the Jedi and light side of the Force. This is reinforced by the many times he doesn't even refer to the Jedi by name, but by the term "our enemies". To me it seemed more like he considered himself and the Sith so far above the Jedi that they were more like pests that would eventually be exterminated. It was kind of analogous to having a wasp nest in your backyard; a nuisance and potentially dangerous, but not something that would prevent you from eventually having it removed or destroyed with little personal risk or thought. A fine line between hatred and contempt I guess.
  13. Bob Octa Jedi Grand Master

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    May 6, 2013
    star 1
    According to EU (and an early ROTJ writing session Lucas source, maybe? Someone please confirm or deny), Obi-Wan (and Yoda?) helped Anakin to manifest after his death.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    If I had to guess - I'd say it would be commentary for the RoTJ DVD or Blu-Ray.

    The EU sources that showcased Obi-Wan making Anakin that offer of help - were The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, and The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi - both written by Ryder Windham - who specializes in that kind of "fleshing out the background" story.

    The scene shown from Anakin's point of view: The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader:

    Closing his eyes as he slumped back against the shuttle ramp, Anakin Skywalker had every reason to believe he was finally about to embrace perpetual darkness.
    Not for the first time, he was wrong.

    Initially, there was darkness for Anakin Skywalker, a boundless shadowy realm, like a universe without stars. But then, from somewhere at the edge of his awareness, he perceived a distant, shimmering light, then heard a voice say, Anakin.
    The voice was familiar.
    Although Anakin no longer had a body or mouth with which to speak, he somehow answered, Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very
    Anakin, listen carefully, Obi-Wan interrupted, and Anakin was aware that the distant light was either growing brighter or closer, or perhaps both. You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force, If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades.
    Knowing he was beyond redemption, Anakin said, But Master ... why me?
    Because you ended the horror, Anakin, Obi-Wan said. Because you fulfilled the prophesy.
    The light was very bright now.
    Anakin's first thought was that he might be able to see his children again. He said, Thank you, Master.

    The scene from Obi-Wan's point of view: The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

    Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his former friend but his own capacity for hope.
    Fortunately, Luke's unwavering faith in his father's innate goodness had proved to be a stronger force than the power of the dark side.
    Obi-Wan recalled what Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit had told him so long ago, when he said that Obi-Wan was not ready, and that he failed to understand. For so many years, Obi-Wan had thought Qui-Gon meant that he wasn't ready to comprehend details about Anakin's conversion to the dark side. But now, he finally understood his Master's words.
    I wasn't ready to forgive Anakin. And he won't be entirely free unless I do.
    Unfortunately, just as Obi-Wan realised that Anakin Skywalker lived, he also knew that Anakin would not live much longer. As Luke hauled his dying father toward a shuttle, Obi-Wan's spirit shifted his own psyche to another realm. And he waited.

    After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."
    A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness. "Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very—"
    "Anakin, listen carefully," Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."
    Obi-Wan sensed confusion and remorse in Anakin's psyche, then Anakin answered, "But Master ... why me?"
    "Because you ended the horror, Anakin," Obi-Wan said. "Because you fulfilled the prophesy. Because you were ... and are ... The Chosen One."
    But Obi-Wan knew in his heart that those were not the only reasons. He added, "Because I was wrong about you. And because I am your friend."
    Anakin answered quietly, "Thank you, Master."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Feb 6, 2014
  15. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    Two big problems with Neo-Sith:

    1. People hate the Sith, so anybody with ambition would avoid association with the Sith.

    2. For 1000 years, there weren't any Neo-Sith, so why would any pop up now?
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  16. Palpatine2016 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
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    I've never heard of that Rise and Fall book, but that insight was really interesting. Is the book good?

    EDIT: Not to get too off topic.
    Last edited by Palpatine2016, Feb 6, 2014
  17. Corvax855 Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 23, 2011
    star 2
    Actually there were neo-Sith, but they would quickly get eliminated by real Sith as soon as they detected them. If the Bane and Plagueis novels are anything to go by, the true Sith hated Sith pretenders even more than they hated the Jedi.

    EDIT: To reiderate all this, I was just reminded of the chapter in the Plagueis novel in which he hunts down and kills several of Venamis' potential apprentices, and the chapter in the second Bane novel when Zannah leads that one Sith pretender (the one who has the info about Belia Darzu) to Bane to see how he would kill him.[face_skull]
    Last edited by Corvax855, Feb 6, 2014
  18. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
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    That's exactly what I was thinking when Bane destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness.
  19. Corvax855 Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 23, 2011
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    Yeah, that was the start of the hatred I think. I don't blame Bane considering the ordeal he went through with those jerks, lol.
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  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think it is, at least - it shows many of the events in the movies, from Anakin's point of view - plus a few EU events as well - like Vader's fight with Luke on Mimban in Splinter of the Mind's Eye.
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  21. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    "Despite his advances and intricate technological methods of annihilation, the actions of mankind remained unnoticeable to an uncaring, unimaginably vast universe. If Vader's grandest plans ever came to pass, all that would change."
    - Vader's thoughts on the Destruction of Alderaan, ANH novelization

    Make of that what you will.
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  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    Would love to see one of the skeletons in Vader's closet.
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  23. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

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    Jan 28, 2010
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    You mean this one?

    [IMG]
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Whose that? Is that Padmé?
  25. Immortiss Force Ghost

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    Mar 10, 2013
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    Ahsoka Tano.
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