Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.
Ewoks... Lots and lots of Ewoks...
The Klingons are obviously the villains
No one ever said there wouldn't be a connection; just not Darth Plagiarism.
Who else is named but not seen in the saga? Quinlan Vos and Sifo Diyas spring to mind, are there any others?
One problem is that Vos, Plagueis and Diyas are only briefly mentioned the PT, which I think is pretty much a closed chapter, one way or another. The wider audience probably don't remember these names or attribute any particular significance to them if they do. From a certain point of view, they're just EU characters. They've only left an impression on weird fans like us.
I think the big bad should be a Skywalker. Preferably Leia, certainly not Luke (though he'd make a great antihero), possibly Leia and Han's children (who shouldn't be influenced by EU continuity, IMO).
Quinlan Vos is actually seen; he's an EU invention based on a briefly seen extra in TPM.
We also need to bear in mind that we are talking about a film that is taking place nearly three decades after the events of ROTJ....maybe even more than that.
The villain/villains could be an heir or offspring of someone who was treated....poorly....by Luke or the Jedi Order.
That said, it does not necessarily need to anyone seen in any of the older films, and there could still be a very real connection.
In the EU I was always intrigued with the notion of the sith having secrets from each other. If there is a new Jedi order I would also assume there would still be sith's in hiding? There cannot be light without the dark. I would like to see a secret apprentice either under the Emperor or Darth Vader. I know it's been explored before, but I could imagine a dark apprentice who was protected, and allowed to develop fully with all Sith knowledge at his/her disposal. In time when this apprentice learns of galactic events he takes up moniker of Darth lord & trains his own apprentice thus carrying on the rule of two. If he was still young when chosen he/she would be in their prime if they where of human origin, and a 30 year gap timeline is followed.
I can imagine Luke confronting such a enemy only to find out he/she was a apprentice to his father, and where his former master was weak (once being a Jedi) this new sith would be strong (trained as only a sith ie Darth maul). In this scenario a direct lineage can be made to sith's of the past without needing for them to appear, but it would be awesome to see a sith force ghost helping out ie palpatine/plagueis etc...
It would be pretty funny if the villain was Ponda Baba, coming back after all those years to take his revenge on Luke after that incident in the Cantina. After all, according to Robot Chicken, Ponda Baba was only complimenting Luke's hairdo.
Ponda Baba, together with the Ughnauts who still want to play catch with 3PO's head, and the fat rancor keeper who want to avenge the death of his pet rancor.
Why don't they just make a movie where everyone is happy?
Yes, the Rancor keeper (Malakili) too! And actor Paul Brooke is still alive.
If (the majority of the) audience won't care too much about guys like Sifo Diyas or Plagueis, aka guys who have been mentioned in the past, they sure won't care too much about Darth Red Eyes or General Corruption, aka villains introduced out of nowhere, with no mention in the past, who for some reason are going to become the next threat the good guys will have to deal with.
If we are going to have a new villain in the new trilogy, he must be at least as powerful and as menacing as Sidious+Vader. Otherwise the new trilogy will feel like it's just filler, a trilogy just there to exploit the success of the previous six movies, while not trying to reach the magnitude and importance of the OT and ST.
The villain will be just another guy the heroes will have to deal with.
At the same time, having one of the Skywalkers walk the path of the Dark Side is too obvious and too cliche to be taken seriously and won't deliver the same impact on the audience on an emotional level.
Many will have this reaction: "Oh no, not again...another Skywalker turns bad? Oh well..."
On the other hand, Plagueis will seem like an obvious continuation to the villains' lineage - the one who started and the one who is going to finish the Grand Plan. How can you top that? Not with any random Imperial general or Dark Jedi, that's for sure...
Well the saga is basically about the Skywalker family, I can see the fan appeal for finally introducing the dark progenitor (if that's even how it happened), but it still feels a little far fetched. I'm not sure it's any more likely than introducing new iconic villains as they did in 4 (Vader/Tarkin), 5 (Boba Fett), 6 (Jabba/The Emperor), 1 (Maul/droid army), 2 (Dooku) and 3 (Grievous).
I'd like to see some loose ends tied up as much as the next geek, but I'd also prefer as little convoluted exposition as possible.
Tarkin, Admiral Piett, Boba Fett or Jabba were more like support villains. So was Maul, the Viceroy, Dooku and Greivous.
When talking about Star Wars (the movies) we can't just talk about one of the movies - there is a bigger picture, made out of all the movies in the saga. There is a very strict link between each episode, including the characters and the events.
The first two movies of each trilogy had support villains who were regarded as main villains, but only in those specific episodes. All of them were coordinated by Palpatine/Sidious.
Even Vader, while menacing and responsible for most of the destruction, was still under orders from his Master, the Dark Lord of the Sith.
If I may go too far, I would say that another important aspect of Star Wars is that the main villain is like a puppet master until the final episode of each trilogy, when he gets directly and physically involved.
But Palpatine's presence was felt from the moment Tarkin said that he dissolved the Senate permanently. But we don't see him until the mid-point of the next movie. And then he's just a hologram. He doesn't do anything. But from what we're told and what he says, he appears to be really powerful and really evil.
Palpatine was the puppet master and also the main villain of the movies. But what if there is someone overseeing that puppet master?
If the theme of the main villain puppet master is kept throughout the new trilogy(ies), then we will be introduced to a secondary villain who will apparently do all the evil things. A corrupt general, a fallen Jedi, who knows?
But behind him/her, coordinating his/her every move is the real puppet master. That's either a resurrected Sidious (unlikely in my opinion) or his former master, Plagueis (and here comes the blah blah blah about him being responsible for the events that led to Anakin's birth and the Empire's creation).
Another aspect to take into consideration is this - if the new villain is not Sidious (very likely), then he will have to be at least as powerful as him. Considering that we are told that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist, having Darth Red Eyes appear out of nowhere with even greater powers will make little sense. But you will say: isn't that the same for Plagueis? My answer will be no. Why? Because Plagueis was Sidious' master.
Even Sidious talks with a bit of respect and seems impressed by the powers of his former master. He even calls him Darth Plagueis the Wise. If Sidious praises Plagueis to some degree, then it would not be difficult to accept the fact that probably Plagueis was/is more powerful than Palpatine.
Some people want to keep the EU intact - lucky them, because Plagueis doesn't make an appearance in the post-RotJ EU.
Some people want a Sith villain - lucky them, because Plagueis is not just a Sith, but Sidious' former master as well.
Some people want a new villain and not a resurrected Palpatine or cloned Vader - lucky them, because apart from a brief backstory, Plagueis is never mentioned again, is never seen, never heard speaking - he is basically a new villain.
Later Edit: Also (this post is longer than expected) why the balance of the Force was not achieved after Episode VI (since we need a new trilogy) will find an explanation in the fact that Plagueis was the one who really disturbed the balance.
He was the one tempering with the midi-chlorians, thus doing "unnatural" things. If Plagueis cheated death, then balance can only be restored by his death. But how do you kill someone who is immortal? That opens up a lot of possibilities and adds to the potential of the ST.
An ancient spectral like being that claims to be the Creator of all Things.... although that would be bordering on the ''FINAL FRONTIER'' plot of another certain sci-fi film.
This is a more interesting justification.
There'd still need to be a reason why Palpatine claims he was killed in his sleep, yet he's returned.
Well, perhaps Palpatine killed him and he is cenrtain that Plagueis is dead.
But it is also mentioned that Plagueis found a way to cheat death.
What follows below is pure speculation:
Palpatine says that it's ironic that he couldn't save himself too, but it seems a bit strange that a Sith Lord would concentrate more on keeping others alive, but not have some sort of protection for himself.
Perhaps Plagueis sensed the future and knew that Palpatine would kill him and that Anakin would become a great threat.
In the Darth Plagueis novel (spoiler) Plagueis' master sensed that his apprentice will kill him moments before it actually happens. Plagueis is impressed by this ability to sense the future.
So after sensing his imminent death, Plagueis lets Palpatine to kill him. Somehow he survives (his spirit or whatever).
He is patient and stays away from the events that take place after. The longer he says hidden, the better - Palpatine will think he's dead. The more time goes by, the more chances that history itself will forget he even existed.
If he also wrote the Prophecy in wake of Anakin's birth, then he must have sensed that Palpatine will be killed by his apprentice, in true Sith fashion. Luckly (or already foreseen) Vader dies too, leaving no Sith Lord to rule the galaxy.
With a seemingly weak and inexperienced new Jedi Master, Luke Skywalker, no Jedi Order and almost no other real threats comparable to his power, what better time to come out of his hideout to take over the galaxy?
This will probably give more meaning to the line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
/end of speculation
Seems valid. "Waiting in the wings until the time is right" worked for Krayt.
'He couldn't save himself', but maybe a powerful and darkly curious Skywalker could resurrect his zombified corpse 100 years later?
There's something about Ian McDiarmid's performance during the opera scene... Palpatine seems too proud that Plagueis's apprentice killed him for it to be a lie... Of course there's always scope for A Certain Point Of View, but there'd be too much expository effluent to wade through, IMO.
Plagueis would kill people and bring them back to life. Sometimes two, three, even ten times with one person. They were dead. Dead. Then he brought them back to life. Dead. As in dead. He killed them then used the force to resurrect them. Did it in front of Palpatine once. Dead So the logic is.....and even Palpatine briefly entertained the thought, that he did the same with himself.As in, was dead and brought himself back to life, like he did with so many others. Dead ya know. Dead...then like...brought back to life. That was his obsession. His "thing". He was kinda into bringing dead things back to life. Have I said dead? Kinda sounds condescending doesn't it? I defiantly think Plagueis has experienced death. Maybe he even let Sidous kill him?
Star Love. Star Joy. Star Bright. The star I seek tonight.... slarlight....starbright! Madonna/acid flashback.
I think one major factor that contributed to both Palpatine and Plagueis' death was their arrogance.
Arrogance that, unlike their former masters, they would be the one to rule forever, to always have a handle on their apprentice and never fall victim to what seems obvious; until you fall victim to the self-indulgence and narcissism that is an unfortunate byproduct of embracing the dark side.
I thought that was the beauty of both of their deaths. Palpatine obviously never saw it coming, and got thrown down a hole. Plagueis believed in his own immortality so much, he got slaughtered in his sleep.
I don't see this as why we need another trilogy. Things can go into balance only to be tipped out of balance again. We have another trilogy because there are infinite stories one can weave in the SW universe, and apparently George has something up his sleeve.
It's simply personal preference. I thought Plague served his purpose for the novel, but I',m not interested in seeing him come back. What do you do after he's killed? Claim that his former master is now still alive and waiting in the wings to?
I would just like to point out that Yubnub and I agree about something.
Peace is possible. We shall overcome.
I know, they should just drop that whole Skywalker thing. But seriously, I'm having a hard time imagining a villain who has the potential to top the Vader/Sidious combo. The whole non Sith thing is absurd and needs to be thrown out of the window from the start. How would a new Sith be introduced into the ST? The people who think some fallen Jedi will be a threat to the galaxy don't understand Star Wars mythology in my opinion. Who knows...maybe they'll hack up Star Wars with some stupid alien galaxy invasion or some bland "war" between political factions with no focus on the force. That sounds like a bowl of microwaved poop to me. Just sayin. While I'm just sayin things that friggin guy from Ancient Aliens should be the new villain. His hair and silly theories have caused a major disturbance in the force. I love how everything with them is Aliens. The pyramids? Aliens! The stones at Puma Punku? Aliens! My shoe is untied? Aliens! Lost my keys? Aliens! The guy's hair in my picture isn't any better though. Schopenhauer is responsible for bringing eastern philosophy to the west though so he's sorta responsible for Star Wars if you know what I'm sayin. Serious question(s). How do you envision a new villain topping Vader/Sidious? Do you think it should be Sith?
Why do I get this bad feeling that TONS of fans here are gunna be disappointed and rageful if Plagueis is not the villain cause I got this feeling that he wont be. Who knows maybe he will but IDK I just got this feeling that its gunna be a new villain.