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ST Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. Poli-Sci Jedi

    Poli-Sci Jedi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Maul was a brilliant addition to Star Wars. Lucas actually instructed his design crew to make something out of a nightmare, and Maul fits the bill.

    If the ST goes along with the alien invasion theme, I suspect we might get a charismatic alien warlord character, perhaps based on the archetype of the barbarians at the gate (Germanic or Viking raiders, perhaps).
     
  2. the_sinister_hologram

    the_sinister_hologram Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Oh, you mean the one where people would be shown walking down corridors for minutes? That 2001: A Space Odyssey wannabe?
    It seems rather odd that you like the most slow-paced and "boring" of the saga and also the one with the most action, 'splosions and shaky camera, which is the latest one.
    I thought that people who thought that the fast-paced action of the 2009 movie was great, also liked the sixth film of the franchise, or the eighth movie with the Borg. Or even the 10th one, as bad as it was.

    He had the most potential, but sadly Lucas either didn't know how to develop his character or only wanted to have him in the series to say "hey look at this bald guy with spikes. and he has a double-bladed lightsaber too!"

    Going back to Plagueis, yes I may be wrong. VERY wrong and Lucas might surprise us with the new villain.
    It is possible that he has someone else planned to be the baddie of the ST (and probably the ST of the ST). It's his story and he can do what he wants with it.
    My reasons for supporting the Plagueis idea have been written a few posts back. But it may be too obvious to have him as the villain. Just as obvious as a Skywalker offspring going bad. We will see.

    One little aspect I forgot to mention earlier was that the villains seem to be part of the same line of masters and apprentices. There are even connections between the heroes and villains.
    Plagueis trains Sidious.​
    Plagueis creates Anakin.​
    Sidious was Maul's master.​
    Sidious becomes Dooku's master.​
    Yoda was Dooku's master.​
    Dooku was Qui-Gon's master.​
    Qui-Gon trains Obi-Wan.​
    Obi-Wan trains Anakin.​
    Anakin becomes Sidious' apprentice.​
    The Skywalker twins are born.​
    Obi-Wan trains Luke.​
    Yoda trains Luke.​

    Only if this theme is kept, then there are two possibilities:
    a) we go back to the one at the beginning of this list, Plagueis, the one who learned how to cheat death, the one who created Anakin out of thin air. Basically the one who is responsible for everything, including the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War.
    b) some secret apprentice of Vader and Palpatine appears out of nowhere and starts doing evil things for reasons. Or some apprentice or offspring of the Skywalkers who goes bad because the script says so.

    Then what can be more menacing than a Sith Lord who finally learned his lesson, that arrogance is a weakness?
    The one who allowed Palpatine to think he's dead. Deceiving others is also part of the Sith way of thinking. It's not that far fetched.
    Without a Jedi Order to threaten him, with an inexperienced Jedi Master, Luke Skywalker...I don't know about you, but this could be a good setup for the new movies.

    If balance can simply be "unbalanced" whenever the plot needs it, then the whole Chosen One, the Prophecy, Anakin's story and sacrifice...all of it would be pointless and lose most of its emotional impact.
    Restoring the balance of the Force was something of major importance in the PT and I don't think that Lucas threw that in there just because he couldn't think of another plot device to get things going.
    It would be rather odd if we got a new trilogy which will be completely unrelated to the main story of the previous six films. Remember that we're not talking about a simple novel-to-movie adaptation. We're talking about new episodes, new movies, new trilogy(ies). G-level canon. Giving us a completely new universe, storyline, characters (both heroes and villains) unrelated to the previous movies is not Lucas' way. He always liked to link elements from his stories. That includes the villains and the heroes.

    He was talking about the ST back in the '90. He clearly had some idea of how things may continue from RotJ. But he decided to make the PT first. And in that PT he introduced us to a series of elements like the Prophecy and the Chosen One, Sidious' master who learned how to cheat death and so forth. Most of these elements introduced in the PT were never explained or fully explored. We just assume that with Palpatine's death, balance was restored. But what is the balance in the Force? Who wrote the Prophecy? Was Anakin really the Chosen One? Does any of the movies explain that or at least give a hint? Nope. We just assumed things and jumped to conclusions. Much like what I'm doing with Plagueis here. But again, I listed an entire bunch of reasons of why there is a 0.000001% chance that I may be right. Then again you may be right.
     
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  3. run_luke_run

    run_luke_run Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2004
    I do see the logic. I like your point about being the first Sith to have that light-bulb moment about arrogance getting in the way as well. And yes, I must be odd in my Trek appeal. :)

    I think a lot rides on just how far out this film takes place from Jedi. What I'm getting at is the simple question (regarding Plagueis' return); why wait decades and for the Jedi to at least partially rebuild before swooping in with your power to take over the galaxy? Does he just like a challenge? Did he sleep through his alarm?

    It just seems a bit silly that he would wait. Of course, if he is alive somewhere, he saw his midi-child Anakin get burnt to a crisp, so maybe he slipped into a major depressive episode and just doesn't find pleasure in doing the evil things he does like he used to. Maybe he's been in therapy for half a century. Again, this with the assumption that we're talking about at least three decades separating the films here.

    In hindsight, yes...but I think you may be giving to much credence to the idea that there has always been sort of grand-master-plan at work here with regards to films. I think the point was much simpler than that; continuity between the PT and OT, and the idea that he was young Hayden when he chose to become Vader.

    There has to be a Sith connection, and I'm rooting for some type of connection to the older films...perhaps I'm just hoping to be completely surprised. For once. Like was mentioned above, for all intent and purposes, we all knew exactly what was going to happen in the PT.

    At least we're starting to have fun with the speculation, people. [face_peace]
     
  4. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Its all fun till the fanboy wars start when the actual villain is announced.
     
  5. the_sinister_hologram

    the_sinister_hologram Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 3, 2012
    I have a feeling that the name of the villain is an even bigger secret than the name of the hero.
    We may not find out who the villain is until the movie is released...

    I am still trying to get used to the idea that we're not just speculating on what may happen after RotJ, but what may happen in EPISODE SEVEN.
    The speculations before the PT weren't that accurate, but they were still fun. Same applies to the ST.
     
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  6. jedimikey

    jedimikey Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2012
    I don't really like the idea of the whole Plagueis-Palpy-Anakin/Vader story continuing into Ep.7. It hardly seems "new" or imaginative to do that.

    Having Plagueis as an evil Sith spirit that guides the new villain(s), however, is not a bad idea. But that could be anyone of thousands of ancient Sith lords, not neccessarily Plagueis.

    But Plagueis does have the PT connection, so if they go with that, it'd most likely be him.

    But there WILL be Sith involved in the plot, I think we can be pretty sure of that.
     
  7. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    The Force is the integral part of the movies, they're main feature even.
    I have to admit that I sometimes get bored of the whole focus on Force-users only and just want to see more Han Solo or Boba Fett type badasses, who are tough without waving lasersticks or shooting lightning. For that, luckily, we will have spin offs and stand alone movies and the potential live action series, not to mention books, comics, games etc.

    But, in all objectivity, a villain in the Main Saga should have some connection to the Force. He does not have to be Sith or his use of the Force may be different than what we've seen so far - but the Force is a main feature of the core saga and the villain in this trilogy should be a Force user as well.
    How that is to be executed remains to be seen, I think we're in for something completely new, with a few nods to the stuff we already know.
     
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  8. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Well I like ST:TMP too. I think there are three *really good* Trek films; 1, 2 and 11. The rest are fun (to varying degrees) and have their moments....
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    How about "The Force itself" or if you prefer, "The Dark side itself"- the notion that Palpatine, Vader, and every other Sith are simply pawns for the cosmic force we know as The Dark Side?

    Too Whedon-esque?
     
  10. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 4, 2012
    That sounds rather cool. Ofc, all ideas can be made to sound cool - I'm more concerned with the realisation and final results that we'll see on the big screen :)
    I mean, even having the Sith as villains again could be cool - if done right.
     
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  11. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    The Plagueis novel disagrees with you on both counts. The Force creates Anakin as a rresponse to the unbalaning ritual performed by Plagueis & Sidious. The relevant chapter is even called "The Force Strikes Back." Also, Sidious is the one who first suggested the Clone Wars to his master. It's VERY subtly done. Insidious, even [face_devil]
     
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I always wondered if it was Plagueis's effort at Creating Life- that the Force used as a conduit. The Force saying, in effect

    "yes, you can create life- but you'll be creating your own ultimate nemesis in the process"
     
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  13. newforce

    newforce Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2013
    First of all, it obvious as long as Star Wars stays profitable then there will continue to be new projects, and I think we can all agree on that. The sith will return eventually I just do not think it should happen right away. Here is how I would do it. Going off what someone else said I think a Mandalorian invasion would be awesome. Everyone loves Boba Fett and I want at some point someone to do a spin off on him or include him as a major character in another movie. For this movie though I do not want it to be him but someone else, maybe this person has a connection to Fett. I also do not want it to be a bounty hunter but an actual Mandalorian general leading a mandalorian army in a war of revenge against the republic for years of what they consider abuse at the hands of the republic. I could see the first movie a attack by this army on the Praxeaum trying to kill off Luke and his new students as he starts a new jedi order, knowing that these Jedi would be the only thing able to stop them in a war against the republic. I think at this point they can kill Luke off knowing that they can still use him as a force ghost later if needed and this then hands off the story to the new cast. These new jedi go through struggles and successes as they fight this mandalorian invasion throughout the remainder of the next two movies. They eventually win and have become Jedi knights in the same fashion that Luke ended up kind of doing it. I think this does a few things, it helps us get to know the next generation of jedi's while at the same time given the fans a new enemy that is popular like the Mandalorians without the actually having to put the the sith back in it. Then as a teaser at the end of the final movie in this trilogy after our new jedi are knights and ready to take the new jedi order forward they throw out there a sith somewhere else in the galaxy, thus setting up the next movies.
     
  14. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Totally agree with this. The main villain should be a Force user and I also believe we are in for something completely new (but also connected to the other trilogies.)

    It is extremely limited to think that the mythology of Star Wars is simply the battle between Jedi and Sith. One it is inaccurate since the mythology of SW goes much deeper than that (IMO among many other things it is a commentary on humanity itself and how we tend to give away our freedom and that it is everyones duty to fight for it) and two it hinders your ability to introduce new aspects to that mythology. Introducing new themes, characters, groups, etc. into an existing mythology can often strengthen it. I am not advocating for Dark Jedi (silly) or bounty hunters with lightsabers or anything we've ever seen in any comics, TV series, or books but something totally new and exciting (and I'm hoping the Whills have something to do with it.) The Force is much larger than any Jedi or Sith and while the Sith are "badasses" :rolleyes: that doesn't mean they are a pre-requisite for an awesome movie. Just my opinion though.
     
  15. Lord Tuvitor

    Lord Tuvitor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2003
    The baddie is a dark side user named Darth something. The something part will sound sinister or shadowy. He or she will force-choke something or someone at some point to show how evil they are. Their lightsaber will be red and they will hate Luke Skywalker for some reason.

    Either that or Mace Windu will be back to avenge the old Jedi Order against the son of Vader and his 'false' Jedi Order. Or maybe the Ewoks will rise up in their new-found power post-ROTJ and take over the galaxy, and Chewbacca will be their king. Darth Chewbacca. All that Wookiee rage... add the Force, and you have a Sith waiting to happen. Darth Chewbacca will kill Han to end Darth Chewbacca's life-debt. His apprentice will be C-3PO who is Force Sensitive because the Chosen One built him. Darth Threepio will be killed by Artoo, who will resist his offer to turn to the Dark Side.

    Man... I should write for Supershadow...
     
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  16. TheFoot

    TheFoot Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2011
    I find it interesting thinking about the villains of the OT. Don't forget about Tarkin, who was a nice non-force-user villain who actually had a bit of control over Vader. Also, the Emperor ends up being the main villain, but isn't even shown until ROTJ. Then when you get into the PT, it gets almost zany with the amount of force-users, good and bad.

    In all honestly, they can pull dark-force users out of thin air if they want since it's such a huge galaxy. I'm hoping for a dark force user who has some kind of command, but doesn't necessarily have to be a Sith. The Sith can be dead as far as I'm concerned, especially since they were KIND OF dead in the OT anyway. At least, they were pretty lax with no Jedi around.

    But overall I want to see someone new, not someone already created. It would be very interesting to see an evil force ghost though....I'm all for that. Perhaps the villain is one who has a connection to the Force, but isn't a Sith, and actually becomes one due to finding such a ghost? I think that makes for a great plot.
     
  17. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    When I use the term mythology I'm specifically referring to the force element in the films not Lucas' views on democracy (a real thing). Mythology, at least my use of the term, isn't simply the act of making up a story, although some people may interpret the word that way, it's more so to do with unreal things, as in, completely fictitious.....like "The Force" or Greek mythology. The force is the foundation of Star Wars mythology and this has been the Jedi harnessing the lightside of the force with the Sith harnessing the darkside for thousands of years (in the Star Wars universe). That's the core mythology of Star Wars. You mess with that and you mess with the core ingredients which means the end product could be something unrecognizable along the lines of 'just another sci-fi film'. I don't think Lucas wrote out the Sith in his treatments unless it was to sabotage Disney but I don't think he's that sort of person.
     
  18. Darth Lycan

    Darth Lycan Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    the_sinister_hologram
    I like what you said.
    One little aspect I forgot to mention earlier was that the villains seem to be part of the same line of masters and apprentices. There are even connections between the heroes and villains.
    Plagueis trains Sidious.​
    Plagueis creates Anakin.​
    Sidious was Maul's master.​
    Sidious becomes Dooku's master.​
    Yoda was Dooku's master.​
    Dooku was Qui-Gon's master.​
    Qui-Gon trains Obi-Wan.​
    Obi-Wan trains Anakin.​
    Anakin becomes Sidious' apprentice.​
    The Skywalker twins are born.​
    Obi-Wan trains Luke.​
    Yoda trains Luke.​

    Only if this theme is kept, then there are two possibilities:
    a) we go back to the one at the beginning of this list, Plagueis, the one who learned how to cheat death, the one who created Anakin out of thin air. Basically the one who is responsible for everything, including the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War.
    b) some secret apprentice of Vader and Palpatine appears out of nowhere and starts doing evil things for reasons.

    Then what can be more menacing than a Sith Lord who finally learned his lesson, that arrogance is a weakness?
    The one who allowed Palpatine to think he's dead. Deceiving others is also part of the Sith way of thinking. It's not that far fetched.
    Without a Jedi Order to threaten him, with an inexperienced Jedi Master, Luke Skywalker...I don't know about you, but this could be a good setup for the new movies.


    I agree with what you said. I'm also leaning towards a secret appt. With palpatine training Dooku & maul, and then Anakin why would he stop? As Vaders power grew I can see Palpatine finding a new apptc, and keeping him hidden. He would have the resources & knowledge. He may have had this in place to continue the Sith line just in case? Or DV could have come across his own apptc, like in TFU, but it would be more plausible for Palpatine.

    I was always intrigued with the notion of the sith having secrets from each other. If there is a new Jedi order I would also assume there would still be sith's in hiding? There cannot be light without the dark. I would like to see a secret apprentice storyline. I know it's been explored before, but I could imagine a sith apprentice who was protected, and allowed to develop fully with all Sith knowledge at his/her disposal. In time when this apprentice learns of galactic events he takes up moniker of Darth lord & trains his own apprentice thus carrying on the rule of two. If he was still young when chosen he/she would be in their prime if they where of human origin, and a 30 year gap timeline is followed.

    I can imagine Luke confronting such a enemy only to find out he/she was a apprentice to his father or the emperor, and where his former master was weak (once being a Jedi like DV or overconfident like Palpatine) this new sith would be strong (trained as only a sith ie Darth maul). In this scenario a direct lineage can be made to sith's of the past without needing for them to appear, but it would be awesome to see a sith force ghost helping out ie palpatine/plagueis etc...

    A apptc who has learned from all the mistakes of his previous masters. Forged as a pure sith & being one with the dark side would make for the ultimate villain IMO.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    A quote from him on The Prophesy of the Chosen One- I think from an interview:

    "Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
     
  20. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    LOL, quote from Lucas "There will be no more Star Wars movies".
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    True- we can't assume everything he's said in the past will remain uncontradicted.
     
  22. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The books are all over the place but ya, in the book (told from Palpatines perspective) the entire execution of the 'Grand Plan' was under the control of Palpatine the whole time (which isnt true if you read the book). Again, this was being told from Palpatines perspective. It also said Plageuis thought, he and Sidious theorized, the force was fighting back when he was trying to create life- he assumed he failed and that the force created Anakin to straighten things out but in ROTS it's heavily implied Plageuis created Anakin. This is the thing with Star Wars- the films, the books, the comics, the cartoons, the video games.....one giant cluster fudge of story lines. Originally they had Plageuis dying long before Anakin was born but moved his death up to the end of The Phantom Menace period and the quote of the back of the book...what's that all about?
     
  23. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    You misinterpret what mythology is then. Mythology is not about creating completely "unreal things", as you put it; the complete opposite in fact. It is used for the purposes of explaining and interpreting very real things (i.e. natural phenomenon, creation, historical events, etc.) However, I was certainly not advocating that these new films abandon the Force or Force users but merely introduce a new aspect to that story. Just an opinion though and I'm not asking you to agree.
     
  24. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    my·thol·o·gy


    /məˈTHäləjē/
    Noun
    1. A collection of myths, esp. one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition.
    2. A set of stories or beliefs about a particular person, institution, or situation, esp. when exaggerated or fictitious.
     
  25. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012

    Exactly. They are stories (usually exaggerated or fictional, i.e. Star Wars) used to explain very real things, i.e. phenomenon, historical events, beliefs. They are not based on completely unreal things (my point.)
     
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