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ST Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Sometimes ideas sound lame at first, but then when you develope them, they are STILL lame. Nevertheless, they are fun to contemplate, like the following suggestion:

    What if what they say is true and Anakin really was the Force's creation as a counterbalance to Plagueis's "Frankenstein monster" but not the monster itself? Perhaps Plagueis's experiment is out there causing havoc and despair? Perhaps it was hidden during the Empire for the same reason most people hid from the Empire? Perhaps I am tired.
     
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  2. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Perhaps...
     
  3. the_sinister_hologram

    the_sinister_hologram Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Mara Jade is a possibility - a secret apprentice, now bad, but who in the end joins the good side. However, Jade alone can't really be more menacing than her former master.
    So perhaps she will still be working under the influence of...Palpatine's Force Ghost / spirit? So Palpatine would still be the puppet master in the new trilogy (and thus keeping the theme of the previous trilogies), but since he is in another plain of existence, Mara does his bidding in the real world.
    It's not uncommon in the EU (games and such) for Sith Lords to appear as Force Ghosts.

    Palpatine said that Plagueis told him everything he knew - supposedly about eternal life. So Palpatine may appear as a Force Ghost, with greater powers "than you could possibly imagine". The limit of that power is that Palpatine cannot take physical form, but he can still manipulate the Force to some degree and cause some damage.

    The powers of Force Ghosts remain unexplored in the movies. I remember an older interview (posted on these forums) where Mark Hamill said that the new trilogy takes place mostly on another plain of existence. So can this be it?

    This could also introduce a fight between Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda vs Palpatine's ghost at the end of Episode IX. Perhaps Anakin would sacrifice his eternal soul (aka Ghost) to get rid of Palpatine's ghost. A final sacrifice, fulfilling the Prophecy and finally getting rid of the Emperor once and for all, even in the realm of the Force. This would explain why we get young Anakin as a Force Ghost at the end of RotJ.

    It's very interesting when placing all the possibilities on the table. Before the PT we all knew how it was going to end, but couldn't figure out how it all started.
    In case of the ST we (still) don't have an idea of how it starts and how it will end. There are lots of possibilities.
    I continue to support both ideas - the one about Plagueis and this one, about the secret apprentice.

    Hm, hm, hm, then that changes things a bit, but not by much. Plagueis is still indirectly responsible for Anakin's creation. And since he is Anakin's "father" he also becomes responsible for most of the things that happen because of Anakin.
    Perhaps Sidious wouldn't have killed Plagueis if Anakin didn't represent such an interesting target to take as a future apprentice.
     
  4. Darth Lycan

    Darth Lycan Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 28, 2013
    I agree with you. I feel from a marketing perspective the Palpatine angle would work better, because the masses are unfamiliar with Darth Plagueis the wise except for a small mention as you know in ROTS. What we know from him is from the EU which only the core fans really follow. At least Palpatine is familiar to the OT/PT & the masses, and a connection could be easily made to him.

    I would like to see a sith force ghost glowing red in the ST, doing battle on another plain so to speak.

    The secret apptc is very plausible. I'm sure Palpatine learned a lot by training Maul, then Dooku who I feel was more of a pawn to him. After Anakin became DV I'm sure Palpatine the strongest of all the Sith would know of his ambitions to betray him. He would have plenty of time, and recruits to choose from. Look how many younglings where in the jedi temple at its fall. I doubt in the galaxy that force sensitive children would cease to be born. Palaptine would have his pick from the cream of the crop.

    He may have decided he wanted to do it right this time around. Palpatine imo was a master trainer. He raised Darth Maul to almost take out two of the most powerful Jedi. He almost succeeded against Obi-wan. I'm sure Dooku, and DV where further taught in the ways of the sith. What really impresses me is his teaching of humans in the crimson empire series. He can take non force users & turn them into lethal killers second only to the jedi/sith in power. So his teaching resume is well established. He would have a long time to find a safe place to train a new apptc. & instruct him with all his acquired knowledge & his former masters. I'm sure sith teachings/history would go hand in hand with the physical lessons. With the alliance growing stronger against him it's not hard to imagine this secret apptc being set up to be self sufficient in case Palaptine was unable to further instruct him.

    Once, he/she realized his master is gone by the hands of DV a grudge is born against him & his children ie Luke/leia, and their offspring. Setting in events the new trilogy. I think Luke's mind would be blown confronting Palpatines apptc & learning the sith survived. It would be naive to think their existence is gone, just like not all the jedi where destroyed after order 66.

    I would have a mind orgasm if I saw a Palpatine force ghost on screen instructing his apptc.

    Oh well, it's fun to speculate. If this plot line doesn't happen I'm just still grateful for a new batch of hopefully better SW movies & to expose my son to this culture. I can honestly say I don't know how it will pan out? It could be mandalorians, aliens, it could take place hundreds/thousands of years after ROTJ, the original cast could just be back for flashback who knows? Hopefully they're just good movies. I really like the new star trek so I'm not too worried.
     
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  5. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    Another thing Lucas did to set up the ST was to insert this:

    "A prophecy which mis-read could have been...." - Yoda (something like that.)
     
  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Or at least that's what Plagueis thinks, but we don't get an omniscient perspective.

    And that chapter takes place in 32 BBY, so the use of present tense seems noteworthy, when the operative theory is that the Force may have "struck back" ten years earlier. If the Force is doing anything in 32 BBY, it is bringing Anakin and the Jedi together.

    Plagueis didn't know anything about Force ghosting, which is a light side Jedi skill. In the EU you have "Sith spirits" which seem to be the dark side equivalent, but Plagueis' knowledge of so-called "cheating death" was not about becoming any kind of ghost. His special knowledge was about the cessation of the aging process and reviving someone who had just died.
     
  7. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Well, yes he did. He knew how to "fully immerse himself in the force" while keeping his consciousness but he said he wasn't into that sort of immortality. He wanted to live in the flesh.
     
  8. Cad Carnage

    Cad Carnage Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 22, 2013
    Plagueis makes the most sense, but assuming Episode VII is 30-40 years after ROTJ, they will have to come up with a good explanation of why he is just now showing up.
     
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  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    No, he didn't. Force ghosting is restricted to lightsiders according to the ROTS novel or script. Also, essence transfer became a lost skill in the Banite line according to the Plagueis book. Tenebrous might have developed some alternative form of it, but if so I don't think the knowledge was passed down to Plagueis.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Novel. Qui-Gon telling Yoda it- he could have been misinformed.

    The EU's made extensive use of Sith ghosts. Maybe their technique is different, and they have slightly different abilities
     
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    I meant that the idea appears in both, though it is conveyed more explicitly in the novel. I don't think Qui-Gon has really been "informed" per se, in the sense that the information could be seen as questionable; as an "ascended master" his knowledge is most likely the result of his link to the Force. In other words it seems as if this information comes from the "God perspective" or equivalently the viewpoint of the author. However, that is not to say that it could not be retconned by future writers. But when we only see Jedi ghosts on screen in the OT, and no Sith ghosts appear, that is a strong visual cue supporting the idea. It's not a "new" ( prequel-era ) concept because essentially the same point is made by the Annotated Screenplays.
     
  12. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    What if there are NO villains, just two sides fighting and we go back and forth taking the POV of each side?
     
  13. run_luke_run

    run_luke_run Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 18, 2004
    Then you're not in the right theater.
     
  14. Obi-Wan21

    Obi-Wan21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 27, 2002
    I expect we'll move away from Sith villains. Someone brilliant and deadly, without any force sensitivity. Disney would do well to create a credible villain that is so far away from Darth Vader, so they might create their own icons for a new generation.
     
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  15. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I read the book. He had the ability to become one with the force whilst retaining his consciousness. He said he wasn't interested in that sort of immortality.
     
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  16. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 1, 2012
    A main villain with no force sensitivity. I'll rehash my "bowl of microwaved poop" comment from a few pages ago. I don't understand where you guys are coming from. It's confounding. Perplexing. Confusing and a little disturbing. Like an awkward silence or accidentally farting in a room full of people. I'll physically throw myself through the movie screen if that happens. Off the top rope. Flying elbow (in a drunken rage whilst crying like an infant). Or I'll just quietly walk out of the theater and send Lucas some hate mail.
     
  17. Obi-Wan21

    Obi-Wan21 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 27, 2002
    Well, I'm sorry that theory makes you want to force bodily harm on yourself and destruction of property, and probably get you arrested. Anyhow, I just like the idea of it. Instead of trying to top how great the OT captured those villains. Anything is possible, of course. That's why it's all speculation.
     
  18. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    But do you like the idea or not?
     
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  19. run_luke_run

    run_luke_run Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 18, 2004
    Exactly. But, to be honest no one is 100% sure that the film really is 30 - 40 years after ROTJ just yet. It could be 10...it could be 100.

    Like everything else, it's certainly possible, and I would bet that there will be some "bad people" in the film (like Boba Fett, Jabba, etc.) that have no force ability. That said, Assuming the Jedi are back, I think it's also safe to assume that behind the curtain of all the other bad ones a Sith will be lurking.

    I'm just wondering what tidbits of information will be thrown our way first. Actors/Actresses involved? A timeline (how far out from ROTJ)? Until we get at least something to go on and build an idea around, a lot of what has been tossed around in this thread is, at the very least, possible.
     
  20. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 1, 2012
    So long as there's no "top ropes" in the theater I think their property and I will be safe. I might still get drunk and complain online.....hell, I already do that :)
     
  21. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I should stop being so ambiguous. I just have a hard time expressing my feelings.
     
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  22. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

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    Oct 3, 2003
    I have no problem with non Force-sensitive villains, but if there are a few Jedi around in the ST it makes sense to have a Force-wielding threat to combat them.

    A defector from Luke's academy seems likely, that or some of the Emperor's former hands/assassins. Maybe even something similar to Jedi Outcast where someone attempted to give Force abilities to regular people.
     
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  23. run_luke_run

    run_luke_run Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 18, 2004
    Ya know Richie, that's sort of where my mind leads me when I think about it. That is, let's assume Luke is running the ol' academy for young Jedi...someone (not his son, please) strays...or maybe two or three....and discovers something. A relic. A piece of forbidden information. And behind the scenes they start tinkering with the dark side.

    Young Jedi start disappearing.

    Perhaps a Skywalker is murdered.

    Perhaps, then, a younger Skywalker has to fight back.

    I don't know...but that is, in my mind, the tale I keep dreaming up.
     
  24. Darth kRud

    Darth kRud Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I wonder if anyone involved with the new film goes into these threads and laughs at us? Bastards. I wonder how long it will take ti'll we have an idea of whats kinda generally going on in the film?
     
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  25. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

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    Oct 3, 2003
    They will have to cast people in roles first, then we are more likely to have an idea of what the plot will be.
     
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