Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.
There will be no Plagueis. We will have a new villain for the ST.
In which film was he the villain
Anyhow, you're probably right (could be wrong) but what scenario can you envision, keeping in mind the new trilogy is an extension of the last two series, with an eye on continuity, what scenerio do you see where a new threat arises out of thin air? A threat that rivals Palpatine/Vader? Disney/Lucas (whoever is creating the basic story) can fudge this up pretty bad by using some lame type cast villain with no connection to the prior films.
When I say a new villain, I am saying someone that we have never heard about. Disney will relish the opportunity to have someone they can develop. He will obviously be a force user. I guess hidden Sith(s). I am not a fan of the fallen Jedi antagonist, unless he was a Jedi in the past and disappeared during the Clone Wars or something. That could be the tie-in from the other series. However, the villain has to be somebody who poses a galactic threat.
Darth Sidious: Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace.
IMO, I feel he had a plan for the sith bigger than the rule of two.
I'm with ya on that but (this is part of the point of these forums) how do you think they could pull that off, specifically. When you say there will be no Plagueis and "there will be a new villain" how do you think Lucas/Disney will go about creating a new villain(s) to rival Palpatine/Vader? Lucas kinda tied their/his own hands and the only 'seed' he planted in the prequels was the Plagueis story. It took Sith almost 1000 years of planning in order for Sidious to finally execute the "grand plan". In 40 years post ROTJ a new threat is suppose to emerge with no link to the past and has somehow, in a lifetime, managed to place him/herself in a position to control/destroy the galaxy and or destroy the Jedi once and for all? Where was this person during the period of the six films? Who trained them? Were they a part of the 'grand plan'? Would the new villain(s) be non sith? An invading army(sounds dull to me)? A non Sith darksider? How could that darksider, without fully harnessing the darkside as Sith are capable of, do in one lifetime what took the Sith centuries to accomplish?
If no Plagueis is to be in the new series I think the only option they have is to somehow go with multiple Sith in order to be a viable threat to the galaxy, a small army of Sith but they would still need the "epic" main villain that has some sort of attribute that makes him/her extremely interesting. The thought of a non Sith film with Vong invading or some civil war between crime bosses, bounty hunters, smugglers and such might make a good TV show but the Star Wars film series need to be epic. What scenario can you imagine?
This is a tough one. I like a mysterious lost Jedi who returns from hiding/exile with new powers and a new view of the force. He/she has a power that has not been seen before. Perhaps this lost Jedi believes that the Jedi must take over the galaxy to protect it (Too much like Revan i know). This causes a schizm in the Jedi....etc. Or an army of Sith that had been hiding on an unknown Sith world. My biggest fear is a plot involving a fallen Skywalker/Solo child.
@Darth kRud you make a convincing argument. The problem is, is that Lucas tied his own hands in '83 when he decided to "conclude" Star Wars after ROTJ. Palpatine was supposed to be defeated in Episode IX in the original outline. Now they have to come up with a convincing and as you say "epic" villain and I guess I could see how they could go with Plags but I really think it would seem overly contrived and shoe-hornish.
The established foil for the Jedi in the main saga is the Sith.That's canon.
Will it be Plagueis?
Consider this: The franchise has apparently went to an awful lot of trouble to seamlessly establish a bulletproof back story for a character many feel is a cast off. And trust me, the sale of LFL had been in the works for a time, maybe even a year before it was officially announced. With that said, the knowledge of a ST becoming a reality, why would LFL unleash with major fanfare (possibly the best EU novel to date) a story about Darth Sideous' master that was more adept at Force use than he, with the element of extended life? Was it to impress Disney they could still write good books? Or was there a purpose beyond just another back story novel? Time will tell. Personally, I'm really intrigued by the possibility.
As far as the extending life thing, if that does happen. No ghosts. No black magic. He was a *scientist* that even rejected recorded alchemy use for such things. What about a (Lost TV Show) Desmond-like consciousness move to the future? What about actually physically manifesting himself again in a future time and space, (as the book indicated other Sith could do)? Of course I have another theory I'll wait to share.
Plagueis could hide his presence in the Force from Sideous.
Plagueis had been healing himself of his old wounds, his flesh had returned to youthfulness, could breathe on his own without his little respirator, yet still chose to wear it. Why? Masking his abilities from his over confident apprentice?
Plagueis was steadily increasing his midi-chlorian count.
Plagueis and Sideous sitting around the campfire on Sojourn shifted the balance of the Force themselves.
Pretty impressive stuff to put on a resume for open job position of : Chief Villain that's back in black for SW7...
Since everything in Mortis is so vague, do we even know for certain that was Qui-Gon's Force ghost ( who still did not appear in visible form in his appearance in the ROTS script )?
Betty White will play an evil Jedi librarian who uses recovered holocrons to forge the galaxy into a feeding ground for large reptillian predators. She will also curse frequently.
I have no idea what they're going to do but I do know I'll be disappointed with villains like this:
Random guy shows up with vendetta against Luke/Jedi
Disney's last villain:
As an earlier poster said if they pull some crap like that ^ many of us will be begging for Plagueis.
If Plagueis turned out to be in Ep. VII, and he was a Muun as apparently George intended, I would hope they use the right special effects techniques to bring him to life. The Banking Clan guy in AOTC looked a bit cartoony. Maybe they could do motion capture or use an animatronic face.
For anyone interested in the "Darth Plagueis in the ST" scenario, I HIGHLY recommend reading Hour of the Dragon by Robert E. Howard. This was one of the original Conan stories written back in the 30s, and the overall premise is a perfect model for how Plagueis could work as the new villain. The novel starts with Conan (the Barbarian) as an older king who's rule gets challenged by a group of conspirators that resurrect an ancient dark sorcerer to help with their evil plans. Just swap Luke for Conan, and Plagueis for Xaltotun (the dark sorcerer), and you have a nice, basic plot for the ST. Obviously, Luke won't be a king like Conan, but he'll probably be in a similar position of power, most likely being the Grand Master of the New Jedi Order, with quite a few enemies. The conspirators could be imperial sympathizers or wannabe Sith Lords that resurrect Plagueis so he can teach and/or help them. In Hour of the Dragon, they resurrect Xaltotun with magic, but in Episode VII, perhaps they simply awaken Plagueis from some dark side induced hibernation. I still think it's probable that Plagueis essentially let himself get killed (but not really; he always had a way to come back) to escape the wrath of the Chosen One, and let his apprentice deal with the consquences on his own.
I'm sure they would. It's become popular to flesh out the 'bad ass' in villains and it's hard to do that if they look fugly and cartoony.
I agree. Not reading between the lines, but when you consider their relationship history up to this point, it seemed Plagueis really wanted Sideous to "kill" him. To see him "dead". When you read that sequence in the novel, Plagueis was totally baiting Palpatine about co-rulership, this on the eve of Palp's inauguration. Plagueis knew how temperamental Palpatine could be when power over his self determination was threatened. Hell, Plagueis baited Palpatine to kill his own family, which he did, over a similar issue.
Remember too, when Plagueis was running around "off camera" on Coruscant trying to investigate the existence of little Ani, Plagueis got a vision of the future showing glimpses of what was coming through Anakin. As I said earlier, I don't think it was truly part of the "Grand Plan" that Plagueis and Sideous co-chancellor the galaxy. Plagueis set up Palpatine's career and apprenticeship as a giant Rube Goldberg to severely cripple the galaxy by decades of war and decimate the Jedi Order. He used Sideous as Sideous used Maul. As a power tool.
One more telling point, is after Plagueis is "dead" Sideous doesn't get the rush like Plagueis did after he killed Tenebrous. In fact, Sideous feels a loss. He later attributes this feeling to Maul getting killed. But was that the reason?
I think it is highly unlikely that the villain will be someone/somehting that already exists somewhere in any of the various SW media.
For the ST at least, I think we'll see something completely new and not a screen version of something from existing material.
However, for the pure fun of speculation:
The more I think of it, the more the Infinite Empire (or something along those lines) could be quite a nice enemy force. An ancient unknown power that has been gathering strength in the remote parts of the galaxy, watching with mild amusement the conflicts like the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War, waiting for the galaxy to weaken enough for them to strike and regain power.
This has been mentioned somewhere in a different thread, and people said "Well, the average moviegoer has no idea who the Rakata are, it'll be confusing."
No, it won't. It can be explained in just a few sentences and everyone would see it crystal clear.
For example: "They are an ancient Empire, thought to be extinct even before the Republic was formed. They are no more than a myth but it would appear that they have been hiding in the far reaches of the galaxy for centuries, gathering power. Now they're back."
A sentence like that can just as easily work for whatever new villain they come up with, and it is quite easy to explain to everyone who the threat is. No need for a two-semester SW ancient history class.
Again, I think it is nearly impossible for them to be the villains but hey - speculation is fun.
And, the most important point to make is that it does not have to be Rakata or the Infinite Empire at all. Even if they make up something completely new along the lines of an ancient galactic-spanning power that predates the Republic, it could be quite fun.
I didn't like "Banking Clan Guy" in AOTC. He didn't look at all real to me and I'm terrified by the thought of a major character in the ST looking like him.
I thought the opening chapter indicated that he did.
Sidious saw Maul as the eventual second Sith.
Good points Fenn. I'm at work at the moment. I'll recheck that opening sequence and get back later. My recollection of Sideous' ascension seemed more anti-climatic than Plagueis' move beyond Tenebrous. Now you got me curious!
There seems to be a parallel between Sideous and Maul. Both were significantly deprived of substantial "Sith" knowledge. Plagueis held knowledge back from Palpatine to establish hierarchy. Sideous held real Sith business back from Maul, partially due to the fact he himself didn't know all the particulars. As an example of this pronounced concealment, Maul didn't even know Sideous had a current master. The argument could be made that either of them weren't apprentices long enough to warrant such information. Which is true. Plagueis seemed to be an apprentice for maybe 80 years, whereas the others 20-30 years. Just an introduction?
Which brings me back to the second comment.
Darth Plagueis appears to have been the last of the traditional Sith Lords. His master Tenebrous was always conscious of the Sith Order being preserved, moving forward toward it's goals. You could even say Plagueis was cordial with Tenebrous at his end, vowing to move the Sith Order on, revenge his saboteurs, and genuinely appreciative of Tenebrous' tenure as master.
Plagueis breaks from the norm by destroying all of his work, and ancient Sith knowledge he housed at Sojourn. Albeit, this during his truncated evacuation of the lunar base. Think about that for a minute. At this point, there is 1,000 years of work and knowledge riding on what's in Plagueis' head as he travels to Coruscant. It's apparent that retention of knowledge was tantamount to any Sith Master. It was their sole responsibility. That is why, after a certain point where trust is truly established, the master must begin to divulge to the apprentice real knowledge. To secure the future of the Order. IMO, Sideous and obviously Maul never reached the point of this traditional transfer of power. Plagueis needed a public face in office, that was a part of the "Grand Plan". In other words, Plagueis employed Palpatine for his political knack and his Force potential that was needed for a time. Palpatine was not superior to Plagueis in terms of governmental wrangling. The book points out that Plagueis called in a lot of favors, and even ensured some opposing Senators were not able to attend the vote for a new Chancellor. Sideous was used as a public face, as a tool for Plagueis. Sideous knew as much of the "Grand Plan" as he needed to know, in order to fulfill his role. Maul was trained as a one man army. In many ways he was one dimensional, and this bothered him. Just as lack of knowledge vexed Sideous throughout his apprenticeship.
What's the point?
Yeah, Plagueis was talking about him and Sid living forever on the eve of the Supreme Chancellor vote. Even if Plagueis was reserved to die for real, no steps in place to ensure his apprentice carried on the Order's work. No last instructions? No bequeathing of ancient provisions for success? Lot of eggs in one basket IMO. It seemed Sideous was trained with just enough knowledge and power to tear up the galaxy. Same with Maul. Sideous gave him just enough to be effective, yet dense upon an aggressive interrogation. To me, the big picture suggests a plan of galactic restoration by the Sith at a future time. A future Darth Plagueis planned to be a part of.
I totally see this one happening. If you go by the the words in "Sith", all it is is a story that Palpy tells to try to get Anakin to come to the dark side. Hell there is even that line that Sidious says "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved." how do we know he wasn't talking about Plagueis? Who has been alive this whole time and really pulling the strings behind it all?
San Hill Lives!
Another string pulling villain with a convoluted plan? Yawn. These big plans in fiction never make a whole lot of sense. Palpatines grand plan is a good example.
Look, I don't want to come across as snide, but repeating the same old stuff over and over is a recipe for failure. There are already elements that "have" to be included for certain reasons or others so if there's a way to deviate from the traditional path, lets take it. The villain is a good place to start with this as a carbon copy of Palpatine wouldn't be very exciting anyway.
If we go by the EU's version of things, the comment does refer to Plagueis, but it doesn't mean that he survived. It just means that Plagueis achieved the ability to bring Venamis back from death before being killed himself.
While I can see the complaint about a Sith Lord behind the scenes doing dirty deeds done dirt cheap can be a redux, I'm of the opinion for a full-on Star Wars episode cycle there should be a Sith Lord as the ultimate bad guy to conquer. He doesn't have to be behind the scenes throughout the whole ST, that would hinge too closely to the PT, but I do like the idea of an ultimate bad guy, who isn't mentioned at the start, who gets a passing mention at most in Ep. 3, and not 3 more movies down the line, would turn out to be the bigger bad. Lucas is, if anything, exceptionally good at taking pieces from previous movies and extrapolating on them to give it all a deeper resonance. I think it would be an interesting way to weave the PT-OT-ST together. Yeah, he would be a Sith Lord who made people dance like puppets to his whim. But, to be fair, that is kind of what they do. Then they bust out the lightsabers and force lightning and things get crazy.
Only when they are Palpatine. Vader was a military man (he was real good at manipulating Luke, but not a shemer), Darth Maul was a hunter and Dooku a political idealist/military leader kind of guy. This whole notion that every Sith Master is a schemer/pupeteer seems to be an EU idea.
And I'm not so sure why the big bad has to be a sith. What would be wrong with a really badass non-force user using all kinds of tricky tech when fighting jedi? He could employ a Sith henchman to deal with force stuff. The Sith order should be weakened anyway after ROTJ.
If I were Arndt, I would write how the big bad rises from political dissent within the republic. It seems a hell of a lot better than the cheesy "Hey look, Palpatine wasn't the real evil all the time. There was another who secretly bid his time to strike at the republic, hiding from everyone, including Palpatine, muhahahaha! Oh, and by the way, he cheated death. Do you hear, audience? Death is no more final in the Star Wars movieverse. Anyone can return anytime." That's how this whole Plagueis idea sounds to me (okay, I went a bit overboard for demonstration purposes).