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TFA Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    To you.

    Most fans are interested in the story (I believe), not the plot.

    I think they are interested in both things, of course. But an audience thinks about the world like an audience, not writers.

    EDIT: Anyway, I disagree that discussing the story is unimportant to understanding how the story might progress. The plot is just how you make the story move. Writers often know the story before they decide on plot.
    StoneRiver likes this.
  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    The plot is the story. No plot, no story.

    If you only have a world, you can make a role play setting out of it, not a story.

    You always need plot. Plot is fundamental, plot beats everything.

    But back to topic. I don't think another man behind the man character is needed this time around. Palpatine's role in ROTJ was seemingly expanded because Lucas needed someone who was more evil than Vader, who after all he wanted to turn good. So this type of character only came into play because of circumstances. I don't think it makes sense to now make a rule out of it. There's no reason to think, imo, that a SW trilogy couldn't work without a string-pulling manipulator shadow villain type. Abrams might just chose not to go with a straight repetition of this theme and instead do something different.

    I believe that we fans are often trapped in the school of thought that just because something was done a certain way, it is now the holy grail of story (because everything SW is perfect, see?), and must now be repeated ad nauseam. But for SW to evolve and to actually be great, new, fresh perspectives are needed. This is one reason I like Filoni so much. He brought some fresh and interesting perspectives into play, especially with the clones.
  3. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    Plot beats everything? What is a plot when there are no characters, locations, and history? You know, story.

    Why would you concoct a plot without deciding what story you want to tell?

    Sure, sometimes writers have an idea for a plot -- for example, a plot might be something like I want to show how a good person turns bad. But without a world and characters, your plot is vague and meaningless.

    For example, your example of Filoni doing something fresh with the Clones was more of a character (story) aspect than something that directly affected the plot (although it can/does). Plot is simply causation -- how or why A affects B.

    So when we discuss what kind of a villain we should have, we should think about the world and what is something interesting (maybe new, maybe not) that can happen in that world. Then after we decide what that interesting thing is, we figure out how it would actually work (plot).

    I also agree we don't need a behind the scenes villain. But before we are for or against that, we should consider what would be an interesting or logical story in the GFFA.
    StoneRiver and Immortiss like this.
  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    The plot ties all together, characters, settings, etc. Even the history of the world is tied to the plot, at least when it is well written. That's why it's fundamental.

    You could have settings, characters and so on without plot. But then it's not a story, more an encyclopedia or rpg world design.

    What would be interesting? Well not another shadow villain string puller, at least for me. Been there, done that. We just got three full movies with that stuff. Feels like over-saturation.

    Thinking about what could happen sounds an awful lot like thinking about a possible plot, but whatever.
    StoneRiver, Immortiss and Dra--- like this.
  5. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    No, this is incorrect. Yes, plot is related to certain kinds of stories (part of them), but you can have stories, theoretically, without plots. Maybe the story would be vague or uninteresting, but that's an intentional strength of avant garde, surrealist, or absurdist narrative. This is storytelling 101, Pev, so I'm not sure why you're arguing the point. One of the first things new writers are taught is to paraphrase the story and then to delineate how the plot is distinct from story.

    For example, here is the basic story of the PT (what happens): The corrupt Republic falls and the Jedi Order is destroyed by the Sith who are seeking revenge for past defeats and trying to secretly take power. Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda try to stop the Sith, but fail.

    The most important part of the ROTS plot (how the fall happens): Anakin seeks to save Padme from dying. Learning this, Palpatine lures Skywalker to the dark side with the promise of preventing death. As a result, Anakin helps Palpatine destroy the Jedi and Republic, and ironically, Padme dies as a result of Anakin trying to save her.

    Plot has to do with specific actions and causation in the story, but it doesn't tell us anything about character motivations, or the larger story (past events). That why we make a distinction between character arc and plot, as the first is concerned with interiority and the second with external chains of causation.

    Chain of causation is an important thing to understand because that's why you can have a plotless story. For example, Samuel Beckett mainly writes minimalist or plotless stories.

    Example: An old man sits in his house alone. He stares outside at the sky every day. He cries. He mentions the names of people he once knew. He eat prunes. He remembers a fight with his wife. He remembers a good day at the beach with her. He smiles. He remembers other things. One night he dies in his sleep. The end.

    Here there is no direct chain of causation that leads from the opening event (a man staring outside) to dying in his sleep. But this is a story.

    Anyway, back to the Star Wars villain. Both Palpatine and Vader have been important to the plot at times in the Saga. But according to the overall story, Palpatine was the main villain. He is the one who desired to destroy the Jedi and Republic. And he did. How he did it is a plot question.

    Relative to the ST, we can ask ourselves what villain has a big motivation to do something bad (story)? What is it that they want to do and why (story)? And how will they seek (plot) to do it?
  6. Ricky Olié

    Ricky Olié Jedi Padawan

    May 7, 2014
    I'd like Palpatine to have an influence in the plot of the antagonists.

    As a Sith force ghosts or something, I just think from a storyline standpoint Palpatine should be doing something, since he's the villain of Star Wars.

    Also anything as an excuse to get Ian McDiarmid back on the screen.
  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    From everything I've read, esp Lucas' hints over the years about what the ST would be about, + my own speculation, a central theme of the ST will be:

    The former Rebel's trying to govern & their fear of becoming the very thing they fought so hard against during the war. How do former Rebel leaders who value freedom & liberty above all else "rule" over a galaxy? When do they intervene in the affairs of systems who are in conflict with their ideals? They may find that a pacifist & peaceful stance is ineffective against greedy & hostile worlds & factions. They may find that being too democratic is a nice ideal but can result in an indecisive & ineffective government with never ending debate. Eventually someone has to make a decision - who will that be? When do they as former freedom fighters impose the will & best interests of the majority on these rogue systems? If they don't how can the Republic be held together, & how can they protect their own citizens? But if they go too hard in the direction of maintaining order do they risk becoming another oppressive regime?

    GL loves historical parallels & one of those is when rebellions "win" & they often find that assuming power & actually governing is not only extremely difficult but often in conflict with their own ideals.

    IMO this will be a backdrop against the primary more personal storylines & action.
    El_Machete12, TKT, StoneRiver and 4 others like this.
  8. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Dec 30, 2012
    I think that's definitely one of the more likely directions the ST will go.

    But it makes you wonder which of the Sky-Solos will be perhaps beginning to or wanting to overreach in terms of power and maintaining order. I mean, it could be someone outside the Sky-Solo family, but I tend to believe this struggle on how to govern properly, if the theme, would be symbolized through the family in some way.

    You also wonder what the answer will be posited. Balance? Is that a happy enough ending? IDK. What does balance in governing look like? Waterboarding? Illegal surveillance? ;)

    There are a lot of relevant questions and depth to be mined here. I have no idea if they want that. [face_clown]
    StoneRiver and Darth_Downunder like this.
  9. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    True, & it's not a theme they're likely to explore in great depth & detail but I think it will be a factor. There may've been a long period of peace & all has been fine, but now with a grave threat at hand, one possibly from within the challenge will be for the former rebel leaders to get their hands dirty & turn the Republic into a more aggressive regime suited to war/defence. If so will their ultra democratic systems be effective & decsicive enough? In the 80's GL said something about the ST characters struggling & trying to avoid the mistakes of the past.
    StoneRiver and Dra--- like this.
  10. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Mar 3, 2013
    Just went through the past 20-odd pages of this monumentally massive thread. [face_relieved]

    Don't forget that in TCW we have Dooku discussing overthrowing his Master in front of Savage Opress, and Darth Maul referring to himself and his brother as the two "true Lords of the Sith".

    These are great ideas for the enemy faction in the ST. I too really would like a warlike Mandalorian faction showing vehement opposition to the New Republic after the atrocities the Empire committed on Mandalore—technically from the EU, but I am certain Sabine's backstory in Rebels will cover this background, and why she has such a beef with the Empire, since they oppressed her people. Thus they refuse to recognize the jurisdiction of a galactic government that they view to be no better than the Empire if they would go to any lengths to assimilate Mandalore into the New Republic. Remember, in TCW, Mandalore and its many systems were neutral in the Clone Wars, and the Duchess Satine would rather die than lose her planet's neutrality.

    Furthermore, the Shadow Conspiracy ("Mauldalore" arc) of TCW showed how cool it was having a (former) Sith Lord teaming up with Mandalorians. The Son of Dathomir comic continuation of Maul's story will continue to incorporate these Death Watch holdouts still loyal to Maul. Their iconography would be what I'd imagine a Mandalorian force loyal to the Sith to be like.

    The idea that Palpatine and the Empire were aware of a greater threat on the horizon—and trying to continue militarization in order to combat it—was part of the Legends EU regarding the Yuuzhan Vong, whose advance scouts were discovered by the Empire years before even the Battle of Yavin. In this case, I wouldn't mind an oblique or veiled reference at some greater threat beyond the borders of the Empire that the Imperials were trying to protect against, in addition to the rebels, of course. With the Empire destroyed, this threat is free to build up their power and overwhelm an unprepared galaxy.

    Maybe he's a descendant of Tor Vizsla (I know Legends, but he is a Vizsla, one of whom is canon), the former leader of Death Watch before Pre Vizsla? That would be cool. He could then be leading the new Mandalorian faction, or rather a warlike neo-Death Watch kind of faction. And wielding the Darksaber, of course! A fan can dream...

    Or just one, and it's the pet of a certain Muun villain...

  11. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 21, 2012
    I was thinking of what the Ancient Fear might mean.

    I'm a fan of the idea of that there is a cycle to civilization. It starts out as Barbaric, and builds up to Tribal, Feudal, Monarchy, Republic, Imperial and then crashes back down to Barbaric again. However, it's not a true procession. Sometimes it skips around. Knowledge and culture isn't completely lost with every cycle. A complete re-start isn't really necessary. But you can see how there's a flow or an ebb to it's structure.

    In the movies, we saw the Galaxy evolve from corrupted free Republic into a tyrannical, controlled based, fear-dominating Empire. The Empire controlled all economic, industrial, and military spheres that were once free under the previous system. In many ways the Empire also represented death. The Stormtroopers looked like skeletons. Their main 'home' was an artificial, lifeless moon-battlestation of death. Darth Vader was a dead man, kept alive by technology. His Emperor even resembled the Grim Reaper, who was most certainly using the dark side to stay alive. Both sides of the Force were seeking to overcome death. The Jedi discovered the power to do so. This Sith, not so much (at least as far as we know). Death and the Empire were tied and hand in hand.

    Even though a system such as the Galactic Empire was evil, and represented death, it was still a system of order, a system of civilization. When that system is destroyed it isn't necessarily replaced with a Republic again. That would be like gluing the pieces of mirror together after it shatters. A real republic has to grow organically. We can't really tell all the Senators to go back to work on Monday after the ROTJ. The system that came before the Empire was corrupt, so going back to that won't really work. All of those disseparate elements that were absolutely controlled now race to fill the void leftover by it's absence. On a galactic scale, that would be chaotic.

    So, what system of civilization should take the place in the cycle? We go from one of complete control to one of none. A system of complete order to one of none. We go back to barbarism. We go back to smaller tribes, all fighting each other for smaller dominance.

    Even if the Rebels managed to regain order for themselves, what would that mean? There are still a magnitude of rouge Governors ruling over their systems. Those controlled economic, industrial and military parts would have to be given back to someone. But who? Who gets to decide? That's a lot of power to suddenly have to divvy up.

    So I think the Galaxy reenters a natural period of Barbarism. We got a hint of this on Jabba's barge and with the Ewoks in ROTJ, and I think that theme could continue further in EP VII.

    And that's where this Ancient Fear title rumor might come into play. What fear do those early civilizations carry with them? Do they fear God? The environment? The mysteries that they don't know? The weather? The ... Force? Do they fear power? Or how to actually rule themselves?

    I think for the villain to be memorable and challenging, not only for the characters themselves, but for the audience as well, and still tie in to the larger role of the ST in the same way that Death tied together with the Empire and it's villains, we'll need something more evil than Sith/Darksiders. The Sith, as bad as they were, were still an Order. They had rules. They were civilized. We need to go back to something more powerful. More elemental. More chaotic. More dangerous. Something tied to the original nature of the Force.

    I think that the villain has to represent that chaotic nature. That desire for un-order. For barbarism. That's the struggle that the Rebels now face. It's not fighting death anymore, it's fighting for civilization itself to be reborn, against an enemy that wants none and wants to rule by chaos alone.
  12. run_luke_run

    run_luke_run Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 18, 2004
    No doubt Ian was great, but Palpatine was the villain of a Star Wars universe that has since expanded.
    StoneRiver likes this.

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 8, 2002
    Based on Dra's theory and what I think would make the most interesting tale, I would certainly have it go like this...

    Plagueis goes into hiding to survive the Prophecy.
    Resurfaces after Sidious and Vader's empire are destroyed.
    Soon after the Rebellion, Luke finds a love interest and gets married.
    His wife is kidnapped by Plagueis when he senses she is with child.
    Luke, unaware of her pregnancy, searches high and mighty for years but can't find her.
    During this time, he never discovers any Force Borns to rebuild the Jedi Order, either.
    Seeing that the new Republic isn't headed in the right direction anyway, he decides to leave and become a recluse on Tatooine.
    Twenty five years later, the son of Skywalker is unleashed by Darth Plagueis, who's completely obedient to his Sith Master and unaware of his true heritage.
    Under a secret guise, Plagueis' apprentice befriends the Republic's new military commanders after graduating from the academy, hoping to win their loyalty.
    Several years before, a war had broken out in the Core Worlds when the Republic failed to protect them from a huge armada that originated from the Outer Rim, which has somehow constructed a new weapon that's never been seen before — a weapon that could fire an EMP shockwave across an entire world, thus destroying all its technologies in one fell swoop.
    The ancient trade of cloning slaves is in high demand again, and the lack of an effective Republic government makes it easier for these cloning manufacturers to produce clones for their clients.
    Seeking a Jedi Master to hone his latent talent, a young drifter decides to travel to Tatooine after uncovering Luke's whereabouts.
    Knowing that her father wouldn't approve of her training to be a Jedi again, she agrees to take this young man to meet her uncle.
    Hydro spanner Celt and Dra--- like this.
  14. Myself656

    Myself656 Jedi Master star 3

    Feb 5, 2008
    I'm a bit of two minds about the villain of the piece. I'd say the odds are better than even that 'The Ancient Fear' is no more the final title for the film than 'Blue Harvest' was. If so, then the only clue it might give is the mindset of the producers at the time which that the title is basically the dark reflection of the first film's title... A/The - New/Ancient - Hope/Fear... which seems to indicate some sort of reversal of the themes and elements of A New Hope (ex. a princess seeking out an old Jedi hero with critical information instead of the old Jedi hero seeking out the princess to deliver the information to her... The protagonist being a cynical rogue who needs the help of an idealistic young man instead of an idealistic young man needing the help of a cynical rogue... etc.).

    If 'The Ancient Fear' IS the actual title though I think it needs to go back further than the Sith, who without the EU were exclusively just an offshoot sect of the Jedi, to the very beginning. To answer the question... Why does an aesetic order devoted to peace and knowledge carry weapons? What ancient threat did they fear so greatly that they felt the need to pick up blades to defend themselves and the galaxy from harm? If the title is literal, then there is your 'Ancient Fear.'
  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    I've pretty much dismissed TAF as the title. Firstly, no other titles have been revealed this early & secondly Lucasfilm apparently haven't purchased domain & trademark names for that title. That's the first thing they would do.
  16. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    This is why I've always thought that the Sith should be older than the Jedi. If the Jedi were created to destroy the Sith, the Sith's desire for revenge makes more sense. I also have trouble believing that the Jedi existed in peace for 18,000-23,000 years and then a bunch of Jedi suddenly turned to the dark side and ruined everything.
  17. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 2001
    And thirdly, it came from the same guy who tried telling us that the title for Episode 3 would be the Creeping Fear. At the very least a red flag goes up for that. It just makes me think someone was pulling his leg. But that's another thread.

    Well Lucas did consider him to be the arch villain of all time and evil incarnate. It would be nice if there's a new villain that they're at least inspired or influenced by him or his work.
  18. Dameron

    Dameron Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 8, 2014

    I also want the Sith to get an identity beyond being the fallen Jedi club, even if it's only myth. I would like the Sith to have some sort of equal standing with the Jedi, or actually predate them. A lot of people like the idea that maybe if Obi-Wan doesn't train Anakin or Luke, or Luke doesn't train new students, you weaken the Sith by denying them new recruits. No Jedi to fall means no Sith.

    Even if the origins are left vague and legendary, which I think is fine, the ST should send a message: The Sith do not need the Jedi.
  19. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 30, 2012
    Thank you! I've never understood why the Sith need to corrupt Jedi. If the Jedi can recruit the untrained, why can't the Sith?
  20. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Maybe this is taught different over here. In your plotless story example I would say the plot is "a day in Samuel Beckett's house". But when I went to university, I did a master in chemistry, not in german. Everything I learned about writing was from other writers, not professors.

    Well yea. The thread is full of possible answers for these questions.
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
  22. Summers1913

    Summers1913 Jedi Knight star 3

    May 12, 2014
    He was at Disney all day. Don't think that would have anything to do with the movie.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  23. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Oct 6, 2004

    Stormies, stood on Star Wars themed pillars, in America, during a Star Wars celebration? Yeah, they must be in the new trilogy :p

    Good catch though.
    Dra--- likes this.
  24. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    May 21, 2008
    Was this pic shot in the states? I honestly don't know.

    I know it's only Latino Review, but they have said this:

    "We’ve been hearing a few rumblings that classic, original trilogy Storm Trooper armor has been assembled for the production down in the United Arab Emirates. That would seem to indicate we’d be seeing them in the film, or that craft services on a Star Wars movie is ridiculously cool with Storm Troopers handing out the salads and lemonades."
  25. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Aug 19, 2003
    galaxy wide chaos.