ST Who's The Baddie?

I personally would like to see a new Sith "Empire" arise. With Empire I don't mean we see the Sith over throw the current New Republic. Lucas has talked about in the past that a few Dark Jedi left the old Jedi Order and founded the Sith. I would like to see that story be told but in this timeline. Some Jedi that don't agree with Luke's teachings, that think the Dark Side is the better way, go out on their own and start to build a new Sith Empire that will rival the New Republic. We've already seen the corruption of one jedi tear the Jedi apart, now I think the next step is the corruption of many leading to a Jedi/Sith War. Obviously one of the Solo Children should be a leader in the Sith movement. Just a thought.

 

You mean like... Set Harth?

 

Which was why I liked the Thrawn Trilogy. C'Baoth was no different than the Emperor — in that he only used the dark side as his weapon.

I get that Sidious had to use his lightsaber because he had to deal with so many Jedi, and that when one is only using the power of the Force it would make its wielder tired, too. But If JJ has intentions of making the ST feel more like the OT, then I'm certain he'll make the Sith Master rely more on his Force abilities than on his lightsaber skill. And that also means the Sith apprentice will be the one doing the dirty work.

 

Dra---, if Sith in all but name are called Dith, is Palpatine in all but name called Dalpatine and is Vader in all but name called Dader?

 

You mean like Simus? Ah, wait that's Legends now.

I know! What about Dooku's head in a jar?!!! That could be our villain!


From the Lit forum Ep7 thread.

 

close. Dooku was turned into:

 

I'm not sure why everyone is convinced Max is going to be a villain of any kind. Of course he may, but in his greatest role ever (Father Merrin) he was the hero who sacrificed himself to fight an ancient evil.

 

IMO this is unlikely bordering on impossible. GL would never allow this as it undermines the prior 6 episodes, specifically Anakin's arc. When we watch the ep's in order we see Anakin go through all that he did & finally come back to the good side & destroy the Sith. Then we watch the very next episode...& a Sith Empire has sprung up?? Just doesn't seem a likely progression after the "always 2 there are" stuff we're told + the significance of Anakin's actions at the end of Ep 6. I feel sure the baddie won't risk detracting from Anakin's sacrifice. Therefore IMO the Sith are done, finished, gone, extinct. Anakin will retain the achievement of having wiped them out for all time. However the Dark Side is ever present & resides amongst everyone. That will be the theme RE the villain I think. You can destroy the Sith but the Dark Side is invincible, must always be confronted & can manifest at any time, & within any one.

 

So by this reasoning, any Dark Sider can be the villain then, so as long as they don't call themselves Sith? I mean, what's the difference? Other than name, what makes a Dark Sider and Sith any different from each other, anyway?

No, the destruction of the Sith wasn't the only thing — it was what they had achieved, too. As long as they don't do the same (build another empire, that is), then the prophecy is still sound.

 

Other than a name, nothing.

This has been discussed myriad times in this very thread. You simply cannot destroy the Sith any more than you can destroy the Jedi. The Sith is an idea, not belonging to any particular person, and could be resurrected at any time.

Hitler tried to destroy all Jews. God forbid, let's pretend his lunacy prevailed and he actually did kill ever Jew on planet Earth. Is that the end of the Jewish faith? That's asinine.

To be Sith is to aspire to a set of beliefs and a way of life. It may indeed not rise in the new trilogy, but there is absolutely no reason to believe it could not.

 

That's how they will get to have lightsaber wielding bad guys while still maintaining that Anakin destroyed the Sith. That's having their cake & eating it too. But I agree, it could come down to semantics between "Sith" & "Dark Side user". The difference may be that they won't be a formal sect in the same way as the Sith or have the same goals & ideals. They may think that they're nothing like the Sith & are acting in the best interests of the galaxy. They may start out more like extremists than bad guys. Not sure, but I just have a feeling they won't be part of the Sith line.

I think your statement is spot on but in relation to the Dark Side rather than the Sith. The Sith is not a belief, it was an order who held a belief. The Dark Side is what endures after the order is wiped out. The belief is to embrace the Dark Side. That can be "resurrected" as you put it. Doesn't mean it has to involve the Sith.

You're right that this topic has been done to death. Many people disagree & think the Sith must be the only wielders of the Dark Side. I don't agree, but time will tell.

PS. If there were only 2 Jewish people left in the whole world & one killed the other & then died then it may well have been the end. There have been plenty of groups of people & beliefs that have been wiped out & only exist in history books.

 

If we're going in a direction different than the Sith, I'm more interested in them actually acting differently than Sith and believing in a different ideology. I actually really like the following option posted by DEATHCONQUEROR:

Evil sorcerers who worship death and who think the Sith are wasting their time ruling? Sign me up.

Some people care more about the villain looking different on the outside -- I'm more interested in their interiors being substantively different.

The worst scenario would be a villain who looks different from the Sith (or even looks the same), but believes and behaves just like them (that's what I call a Dith). That's lazy.

If they're going to be lazy, just give me the Sith again, rather than trying to trick us that something is new.

 

Run Luke Run:

I disagree slightly.

The Sith were an Order. An organization. Organizations can certainly be destroyed. Both Master and Apprentice were destroyed in ROTJ, leaving their Order, their membership, at Zero. With no master to instruct a would-be apprentice in their ways, rites and rituals of the Sith Order, it wouldn't be that Order no matter what that person went around saying.

It would be like destroying the Illuminati. Boom. Done. All 33 levels of whatever, Grandmaster, all of it. We got rid of them. But evil still exists, and just because someone comes all and is truly evil doesn't meant that they subscribe to the ideals of the Illuminati Order.

The Sith Order has been destroyed. The line of Bane, always 2 there are, was taken out. The prophesy, fulfilled. Whatever the Sith Organization's goals were, have been ended. Unless some darksider comes along and somehow learns the ancient Sith bookkeeping and hologram video logs of all their teachings...it's not going to be the Sith.

On the opposed side, the Jedi are also an Order. And Luke was the last of them. If he died, or turned, the Jedi would be no more.

A Darksider's goals could be anything that individual wanted, but it wouldn't be Sith. It could be individualistic, not belong to any Order. Or any Rules.

I do agree though that the likelihood of a Sith Empire in EV II, regardless, is pretty unrealistic. That Sith line would have to come from Luke, and in 30 years, you're not going to get an Empire of Sith running around. Especially not since we haven't even been introduced to the New Republic (which doesn't even exist .. yet, or a new Jedi Order)

 

I think no matter what the new villain looks like, the chances of complaining that he looks too much, or not enough, like the Sith is about 100%. We have Palpatine, who wears nice civilian clothes and black robes, Dooku, who wears Jedi robes, and Maul and Vader, who scream "PURE EVIIIIIIIL AW YEA-AH!!!" to the backing of screaming electric guitars. Some pretty big areas are already staked out for Sith.

Honestly, I don't need the new bad guys to have some completely different ideology. Not being much into the EU, I don't have any investment in Bane other than to think he looks and sounds cool in the Clone Wars. Maybe this is heresy to you LU fans, but I am prepared to accept separation from the teachings of Palpatine as substantive evidence of non-Sith-ness. Even if our new villain should favor red and black and act similarly to past ones, if your line of masters does not connect back to Sidious, I would take that. OK, and if you're not a "Darth."

And maybe VII will have revelations that make that idea completely silly as the yardstick of who is and is not a Sith, but it's the way I feel now.

 

I agree with you to a point. If they insist on not bringing the Sith back as villains (you know there will be dark side lightsaber-wielding villain), then they have to make a conscious effort to differentiate this new group from the Sith we've come to know. Yet, rdhight has a point. Chances are, the iconography of the new villain would have fans screaming out, "But it looks like the Sith are back! Anakin's sacrifice was all for naught!" when in reality it could be quite different. In fact, I disagree with the sentiment I just brought up. Even if the Sith Order returns, they are probably going to do so in a form that's separate from and distinct from the Bane line, the last Sith of which were Palpatine and Vader. As stated in the prequels, destroying the current Sith allowed Anakin to bring balance back to the Force, and that I feel was the extent of the prophecy. There aren't really any stipulations stating that the Sith could not come back ever, and that they were wiped out for all time. We've had these discussions before in the Chosen One thread, and there were ideas thrown about believing that the prophecy as understood may not be complete, or there may yet be a role for the Skywalker line to play in eradicating the taint of the Sith for good. We just don't know yet.

DEATHCONQUEROR 's idea is interesting, and reminds me of the "Destroyers"-type villain mentioned in this thread by Ghost on the Antagonist's Ideology. There are many possibilities for a dark side using villain, though, and it may not necessitate total anarchy and chaos or complete order and control. This is the one area of the ST's villain that I am perhaps most interested in finding out, the villain's ideology and motivations.

On the point about new dark siders, if they were to learn the ways of the dark side from holocrons created by the Sith, what would differentiate them from the Sith of the past? You brought up this possibility, and I am certain there would be some lost Sith knowledge and lore scattered throughout the galaxy that a Force-sensitive may stumble upon, and in doing so, potentially reviving the Sith Order. Perhaps in a different incarnation than the Bane line, especially if a holocron of a more ancient Sith Order was discovered, but the point is, the Sith ideology could yet return. Think of the One Sith in the Legacy comics, the successor to the Bane line that was quite different in their ideology, yet in the end could still be considered, and they indeed called themselves, Sith. Though the ancient Sith, including Darth Bane, rejected Krayt's One Sith order, declaring it not to be the way of the true Sith, they were long dead, and Krayt held the power in the mortal realm. They called themselves Sith and posed a galactic threat on a similar scale to those of Sith past, including Palpatine. Yes, this is all now Legends; but I wouldn't be surprised if the new dark side-wielding villain considers himself a successor to the Sith, or even a Sith himself/herself, regardless of whether or not s/he holds any relation to the Bane line. In the end, we are probably arguing semantics, and the appearance of a Sith-like villain may spark intense debate regardless of whether or not they try to emphasize their differences from the Sith in the first six films.

 

Circular Logic, I have no problem with Bane's lineage surviving ROTJ, but I would absolutely hate Sith who aren't part of Bane's lineage and/or don't follow the Rule of Two. It's Bane's lineage and the Rule of Two that made me care about the Sith. Any other Sith would make me go, "Generic fantasy villains. (snore)." And yes, I absolutely hate the One Sith.

Thee's also logical problems with a Sith who didn't have a Sith master:

1. Why didn't any of them pop up for the past 1000 years?

2. If the overall Sith ideology can survive the death of its practitioners, why can't the Rule of Two survive the death of its practitioners?

There are ways that Bane's lineage could survive ROTJ. Here's some that I'm aware of:

1. Palpatine ghost (my favorite. It's the logical continuation of the saga in my opinion.)

2. Palpatine's secret apprentice

3. Plagueis

 

edit: double post

 

Not sure where to post this... So I'll just drop it in here, the baddie thread, seeing that I don't really have a plot - more like a list of items - and that my speculation goes beyond trying to figure who Max Von Sydow's character will turn out to be. But this all revolves around the baddie (whatever that might actually mean). Maybe I shoud just post in the bad possible plot twists for Ep7 thread...

This is mostly just a mishmash of some of the ideas floating around these boards that I've interwoven into a crazy idea of my own (for Star Wars) that I had for Episode 7 after having become obsessed with the "Interstellar" trailer that came out last December - with a bit of Harry Potter thrown in. To this point I've only shared it with people I know:

I read an idea on here about an ancient order of the Sith - as in one older than the Jedi...Another idea that the Sith might have existed on equal footing with the Jedi (which I take to mean it doesn't exist dialectically opposed to the Jedi?)...An idea about an extinct breed of Force-wielding warriors who might have been destryoed by the Jedi (not another dark chapter in the history of those darn Jedi! lol )...And an idea about using "co-protagonists" for Episode 7 (actually feeling it); the jury's still out on that, so I'll go with sibling rivalry between the two leads, where one is the main character (as in main, main) and the other is in the supporting role.

I'm leaving leave the ancient Sith out and inserting ancient Jedi. Not really, technically, "Jedi" so much as bizarro Jedi. lol

Listen: The rumor floating around the interwebs that Driver will be a Vader-like villain but not a Sith - okay. Adam gets recruited by Von Sydow's baddie - or antagonist - who is a member of an ancient breed of Force-wielding warrior that was once exterminated by the Jedi many years before the PT. Because of "Interstellar" I was thinking something like "Another Earth" meets Star Wars. lol I know. Wouldn't work. Too sci-fi for The Wars.

Thanks to these threads I'm now thinking that Von Sydow's ancient sect of warriors (who might have even harbored its own name for what came to be known ubiquitously as "The Force" (not the Shwartz!)) initially comes on like an unknown quantity to Luke who might not even have known at all about this older, ancient order that once boasted its own warrior code and band of religious crusaders. Luke's ignorance would provide the main conflict for the frame story.

Who or what is this kind of Force-sensitive warrior? Sith? Jedi? Unlike the Sith, Von Sydow maybe wouldn't even be seeking revenge on the Jedi. lol What does he want? Not sure yet... Maybe he simply wants to restore his own brand back to its former glory. He's thinking that the Jedi isn't an absolutist deal now that Luke is in charge so he decides to wave his own flag. So the big philosophical question becomes: Is there enough room in the galaxy for two space sheriffs? (I'm assuming here that Luke has gotten a new Jedi order clicking along just fine by the time Episode 7 begins.) It's not as if this other dude is Sith. Maybe Von Sydow's actions don't even necessarily pose a direct threat to Luke or to the new government. How would Luke handle this kind of situation?

In a very general way Von Sydow would be a darker version of Sirius Black III. Kind of a misunderstood old wizard but not necessarily evil. At least not at the start.

I like it.

This is where I'm running with yet another internet rumor - the possible twins storyline, the one that's been floating around for awhile now. The conflict between Von Sydow's warrior and Luke will reflect upon the conflict between the Solo brothers (going with Solos) who will be undergoing their own beef amongst.

"Twin Jedi?" "Twin brothers?" Get it? lol This saga is about twins!

Oh, and it's also about Fathers and sons:

Luke's possibly fatal ignorance about this ancient breed of Force warrior (ie the history of the Jedi's Founding Fathers) will play out in the micro drama between the Solo twins in the sense that the kiddies don't know themselves about the sins of their grandfather - Lawd Vada; at the most opportune moment Von Sydow's character will provide this dark knowledge to one of them (or both. Dunno yet.) and thereby form a rift between the twins; the supporting player was born weaker in the Force you see. As such he/she will use the betrayal of their parent's omission of the truth concerning their family history as an excuse to act out his/her frustration from feeling betrayed by the bloodline - like, literally.

My only major loose so far (yeah right) is Von Sydow. lol. How'd his character manage to survive for so long if he really is a member of an ancient breed of warrior? Maybe his kind have been training in secret for milennia like the Sith. Maybe Von Sydow stumbles upon an ancient text a la Indy.

Maybe he's really Darth Plagueis The Wise in disguise.

That rhymed.

Thoughts? Ridicule? Nothing?

 

I hear what you're saying... but I think it's actually the opposite of that. The Sith isn't an individual... it's a philosopy... a belief system. The Sith could have been gone for a thousand years, but it only needs one individual to start following those doctrines again and the Sith are basically re-born. Now I'm not stating that this will be the case in the ST, but I'm just pointing out that Palpatine's and Vader's death doesn't mean that the Sith can no longer exist.

 

The Sith and the Empire are such a huge part of SW lore that I can't imagine them not being included to some degree in the new trilogy.

The easiest (laziest?) possibilities to resurrect the Sith with some kind of cliche storylines would be some ancient teachings or artifacts being found by an inquisitive Jedi that turn him to the dark side, or theres an underground element that still practice the ways of the Sith or theres former devotees of the Empire on other worlds forming another rebellion, yet this time the rebellion is to reinstate the Empire.

If they decide to come up with a new villainous race trying to take over planets then it just becomes a glorified episode of Star Trek.

 

Yoda said the prophecy might've been misread. The Yoda arc of the CW implies it. Don't be surprised if the ST changes what you thought you knew just like the PT did.

Even if the prophecy wasn't misread Sith could still be around. Anakin had to restore balance. Palpatine was the cause of the imbalance. Palpatine is dead. Sith, and darkside users, in and of themselves, aren't the imbalance. It's something they do. For 1,000 years Bane's line was present, the Nightsisters are present, yet the Force really wasn't out of balance the whole time.

 

Right all u need is to have someone trip over a Holocron

 

I think the main narrative drive of the OT, by far, is Anakin's redemption and not the eradication of the Sith forever. Whatever the prophecy of the ‘Chosen One’ actually refers to (was it destroying the Sith? Was it the siring of Luke?)... I don’t think it’s that pertinent to the ST (at the moment) because (based on your interpretation of Anakin's story) any new villain could be seen as undermining the notion of Anakin bringing ‘balance’. I mean where's the universal balance in getting rid of Palpatine, if he's then replaced by something worse (Sith, Mandalore warlords or evil space beetles) circa 30 years after his self sacrifice?

Therefore, bringing back the Sith for the ST (regardless of their actual involvement) does not undermine Anakin’s story in any way... because, as far as the OT was concerned, Anakin’s story cumulated in the moment he chose his son over the Emperor... That Anakin/Vader inadvertently broke the Bane line (as far as we know) was secondary next to the human story concerning Anakin and Luke.

 

There's definitely an individual interpretation with regards to this issue. What Ep's 1-6 did clearly show us however was that: the Sith operated (mostly) by the Rule of 2; that in RotJ Vader & the Emperor were the last 2 remaining Sith; & that Vader killed the Emperor & by doing so died himself. So, as the credits roll at the conclusion of Ep6 we're led to believe that the Sith have been wiped out by Anakin's redemptive actions, which were driven by his feeling's for Luke. That's the situation as we know it - the Sith are gone thanks to Anakin (& Luke). Forgetting the "Chosen One" stuff & the prophecy & even the reasons for Anakin's actions, the consequences of them was the eradication of the Sith & an end to their rule over the galaxy. Now with the ST on the way the question is do you reduce the consequences of Anakin's actions? The redemption can remain, that's no problem. As you say, at the core of that was choosing his son over the Dark Side. But, if the Sith are back then the consequences of Anakin's actions have changed. He no longer destroyed the Sith. He killed Palpatine & delivered a significant blow to them - still a pretty good result, but not as extreme as wiping them out as an order for all time. What I'd like is to see his achievement remain as it was at the end of RotJ.

However if they do bring the Sith back I'm not saying it's a disaster for Anakin's arc or that it completely ruins it necessarily. I'd just personally prefer the ST to not risk messing with it. Responding to your comment, no it's not the same as some other villain or use of the Dark Side emerging. No one would ever think that by killing the Emperor Anakin extinguished all evil in the universe.
I'd just prefer to leave Anakin as the guy who became a Sith & then destroyed them once & for all as an order. The Dark Side however is universal & can surely manifest in plenty of other ways. It is after all a "quick & easy path". Going with some other form of evil not only leaves the consequences of Anakin's actions mainly intact but it also gives the story a new & more original threat.

Paradoxically I have a feeling the threat will be the Dark Side itself, handed down through the Skywalker line from Anakin, the very person who destroyed the Sith.

 

I agree with the first part of your post.. in that the Sith were shown to have been removed from the galaxy by the close of ROTJ. The contention here is really about whether the prophecy of ‘bringing balance to the force’ was specifically about killing the 2 existing Sith (Palpatine & Anakin) or whether is was about something else entirely.

The problem I personally have with the notion of ‘bringing balance to the force’ by simply killing the last two Sith is... 1) Why didn’t the force act sooner given that the Sith were in hiding for hundreds of years (didn’t the force know?)? Why did ‘bringing balance’ necessitate Anakin becoming a Sith? That seems like the hard way around...

I’m much more of the opinion that the prophecy was more complicated... and to paraphrase Yoda “misread”. Did achieving balance perhaps then require the Jedi getting closer to ‘the living force’ by rejecting their bureaucratic institutions? Was the destruction of the Jedi, in order to rebuild, also a necessity? So I think all this can be further explored to enhance Anakin’s part in it all - as well as having new foes (be they returning Sith or otherwise).

The bottom line is that Lucas left it opaque and mysterious enough that it leaves further questions and possibilities about Anakin, the Jedi/Sith and the force itself, that can be extended beyond both the PT and OT. Whether these will be further explored remains to be seen.