Speculation Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think thematically, it screws it up completely. Fans want all kinds of crazy things.

    Obviously, this is an area you and I will simply just have to differ on.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Feb 22, 2013
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  2. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    This is what I've been saying :p


    Darth Vader being Luke's father also screws up Obi-wan's tragic story of how his friend Anakin Skywalker was murdered by his old apprentice Darth Vader...
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Feb 22, 2013
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  3. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    For me, it's about what's most logical and appealing. Plagueius is neither logical nor appealing to me. IMO, none of the benefits of using Plagueius (of which there aren't many) outweigh the issues surrounding his use. The "I'm not dead, but have been in hiding manipulating the plot the entire time" trope is bad writing. It's a crutch for those who don't have the chops to make a new compelling villain. It also follows along the lines of the power creep that plagued (ha!) parts of the EU ("I see your Death Star and raise you a Sun Crusher!") and the movie franchise itself.

    Piling power on top of more power can really only work once before you get into diminishing returns. Example: we've already seen Palpatine use Force lightning, then Dooku use Force lightning (which retroactively killed the "Oh crap!" reveal in RotJ for anyone watching the series in order for the first time) with Obi-Wan calmly absorbing it, then Yoda absorbing it with his hand, then Mace redirecting it back to Palpatine, marring his face. Force lightning has quickly become passe. And that's one of the fundamental problems with Plagueius. Vader, for 2.75 movies, was made to be much more powerful than the heroes. Palpatine, for 4-5 movies, was made out to be the outright baddest dude in the galaxy, powerful enough that Vader bends knee to him, but now we're supposed to learn that, nope, there's even a more powerful Sith, that has for some reason decided to just sit idly by while his murderous apprentice takes over the galaxy. o_O

    And while "there's always a bigger fish" may hold true, Palpatine's bigger fish was the love a father had for his son combined with his own arrogance.

    There are other problems as well. We've already had a villain from that era (Palpatine), the complete lack of foreshadowing, a weird insistence that he's the best way to bridge the PT to the ST, trying to explain who he is to the general audience and having them buy into it, etc.

    ---

    I know I won't convince people who think Plagueius is a good idea, but that's some of my reasoning as to why I think it's a bad idea. Since I'm arrogant like a Sith, I bet my avatar that Plagueius won't be even mentioned in the ST at all. :D
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    That's a fair point. And they made it work. It's not something I would keep trying though.
  5. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks, that is a great analysis of the villains and pretty much what had in mind. I even think that it would work if one of the Solo children was the Evil Mother's apprentice and everything would lead up to an epic climax with a four-way lightsaber duel with the Evil Mother vs. the Hero and sister vs. brother.

    I definitely agree with your first point but let me point out why I don't believe it should be Darth Plagueis and then I will try and explain why I believe my idea accomplishes that first requirement. First my three reasons why I don't like Plagueis as the villain:

    1) This one is kind of obvious and many have pointed it out. The man is dead and while many have argued that Palpatine could simply be lying, to me I think the glee he seems to be having by remembering how he murdered his master in his sleep clearly shows that he is telling the truth. I don't think resurrections are very creative and he should stay in his grave. Others might disagree but it is still my opinion that he should stay dead.

    2) I don't think it is great storytelling to try and diminish the previous villain by saying something like, "Well if you thought that guy was powerful wait until you see this one." It is unnecessary and IMO hurts the overall saga. A well written villain with a clear motivation is all the story needs and is enough to present the heroes with a viable threat. I think we can all agree that Darth Vader is a pretty memorable villain and certainly doesn't need to be more powerful than Darth Sidious to be just as iconic (and even more iconic in many respects.)

    3) The moral story of Darth Plagueis the Wise to me is more important to the saga than the actual individual. To me one of the major themes Lucas was setting up with this story is that the greatest weakness of the Sith is their overconfidence. It is a recurring theme we see throughout the saga and with every single Sith mentioned or seen. Darth Plagueis' overconfidence in his own immortality ended with him being murdered in his sleep by his apprentice. Darth Maul's overconfidence with Obi-Wan in the pit got him cut in half. Count Dooku was overconfident in his belief that Darth Sidious needed him and it ended with his decapitation. Anakin's overconfidence in his abilities ended with his legs and arm being cut off and him ending up in an iron lung the rest of his life. Finally it was Darth Sidious' overconfidence that he had Darth Vader firmly under his thumb that resulted in him being thrown down a reactor shaft. Luke clearly states this in ROTJ and I'd personally hate to see this theme diminished.

    Now let me defend my idea for the main antagonist and how it would relate to the other two trilogies. As run_luke_run put it in another thread and I absolutely agreed with, the overarching theme of the Skywalker saga is the power of love. It destroys Anakin but in the end allows him to be redeemed by his son. I think it is most essential that this theme continue with whoever our new villain is and this is way I have advocated for the Evil Mother. Now looking at the previous six films we have been presented with a very linear storyline. Starting with TPM we learn that the Sith have returned after a millennium in hiding to get their revenge against the Jedi and by the end of ROTS they have achieved this. The Chosen One has fallen to the dark side and destroyed the very order he was supposed to be a champion for, the Republic has fallen to Sith rule and the twins are separated. Obviously there are quite a few loose ends to tie up and the OT achieves this in most respects. Anakin is redeemed, the Emperor and his Empire are defeated and the twins are reunited. Everything is tied up nicely and there aren't as many loose ends as there are after the PT. However, there is still a few like for instance the Republic that Palpatine destroyed has yet to be restored and the mandate that Yoda gave Luke to pass on what he has learned and rebuild the Jedi Order is yet to be fulfilled. Now are these threads alone reason enough for an ST? I don't think so because we can infer from the ending of ROTJ that these two things will happen. However, from these loose ends I think we have the foundations for both the galactic struggle (and I have described my idea for this but it basically boils down to a Cold War situation between two superpowers that arose from the Rebel Alliance) and the more important personal struggle for our heroes. So just as the PT's loose ends provide the basis for the OT I would like the OT's loose ends to form the foundation for the ST.

    We kind of have a clean slate after ROTJ in terms of the Jedi and Sith orders with the last of Bane's line destroyed and Luke the last Jedi in the galaxy. So as Luke attempts to redeem his family and fulfill his promise to Yoda by rebuilding the Order that his father helped to destroy I don't believe the villain will be an old enemy returning to wreak havoc but instead will come from within the Jedi Order and will be a very personal blow for Luke (echoing Obi-Wan's failure with Anakin and we know GL loves symmetry). How tragically ironic it would be if while passing on what he has learned Luke becomes the progenitor of not only the New Jedi Order but possibly of the Sith Order as well. I believe this prospect is a big enough threat and with the Evil Mother as the villain the story would be personal and warrant the need to have an ST. No the Evil Mother is not named in any of the previous six films but her connection to the old heroes and more importantly to Luke and the new hero (as well as her attempts to thwart Luke's mandate from Yoda) is enough connective tissue for the ST to be a true continuation of the saga IMO. Also the new protagonist's (who would be the daughter of Luke in my story) personal struggle and Hero's Journey is important. A very interesting aspect of this relationship would be that unlike her father (who grew up not knowing who his father really was) this hero would actually be witness to her mother's fall. This would have a huge impact on her of course and so too would be Anakin's legacy and in my story she would have repressed her powers to the point where her father would believe she has no Force-sensitivity. Her journey would be to accept her destiny and confront the Skywalker legacy. Obvious this is just the story that I have developed and is probably way off from the actual story but I believe the Evil Mother theme would definitely be worth exploring in the ST.
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  6. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 4
    I like it, but the only problem--and maybe this is the problem with everything--is it's been done. The robot/battle suit thing has been done a lot: Terminator, Transformers, Iron Man.

    Even an actual plague of some kind, which I've been thinking of (based on this Flash Gordon plot below) has been done a lot recently. What's been done the least?

    Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe:

    A deadly plague is ravaging the Earth, known as the Purple Death because of the spot left on victims' foreheads. Ming the Merciless is suspected to be behind the plague and it is discovered that his spaceships have been dropping "Death Dust" in the Earth's atmosphere.

    SO, a villain, perhaps Plagueis, who really wants to wipe everyone out for some reason. He/she doesn't want to rule the galaxy, but make it dead.
    Last edited by Dra---, Feb 22, 2013
  7. Scimitar13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Darth Plagueis would be interesting to see as a villain in the new series, but I would be just as interested in a new character. If they were going to bring an older villain back though I think Plagueis would be the most interesting choice.
  8. Lord Optimus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2011
    star 2
    I agree it has been done a lot before, The Matrix and I-Robot are some more examples to go with the examples you came up with. Transformers and Iron Man are a little different I think, but Terminator is definitely really similar.

    IG-88 being the villain was kind of a half serious idea I was pondering it my attempts to come up with something other than Plagueis.

    I'd be open to Plagueis or somebody else just wanting to destroy the galaxy instead of ruling it.
    Last edited by Lord Optimus, Feb 22, 2013
  9. bighairedaristocrat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    I agree wtih you. I also hope whatever villian we get isnt killed off in the first movie. I dont want a different sith lord every movie. I want one continuous threat that arcs through all three movies.
  10. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Like Darth Sidious? Had to say it, sorry. :p
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  11. Skywalker2B Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 2
    The other day I saw a report that Ian McDiramid (I think that's the right spelling) said that he'd be interested in reprising his roll. Adding on to that bit of news, remember that he was at CVI for the first time signing in the US and that he also got himself a copy of the Darth Plagueis book. So...I'm gonna stick with my original suggestion...Palps will be back in Ep.7-9
  12. bighairedaristocrat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    LOL!

    Darth Sidius was always the underlying threat, but he had a different toadie our protagonists fought in each movie - Maul, Tyrannus, and then Grevous. Vader was the main baddie in all 3 OT movies (even though sidious was still pulling the strings), and id like to see something similar in the new movies.
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  13. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    I see that some continue to see "the villain" as THE villain. When talking about Star Wars (movies) we are talking about at least 2 villains - the big bad evil villain and the pawn of the big bad evil villain.

    The speculations about Plagueis refer only to the big bad evil villain role.
    His pawn can be anyone else. Anyone.

    Therefore having Plagueis does not instantly remove all other possibilities of having another bad man/woman.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Feb 22, 2013
  14. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I'm hoping to see the Sith Empire rebuilt - not talking political Empire as Sidious did but Sith planets with potentially hundreds or thousands of Sith....this along with the Jedi order being rebuilt.
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  15. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Fair enough. I'm not surei agree with some of your conclusions, but I understand what you are saying. Out of curiosity, what would you want as a villain? So far all I have heard is the overdone jedi turned dark, or the boring political/ military leader that doesn't use the force.
  16. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    star 5
    I have asked this before in a post above and I'm curious to see anyone answer. How is a Jedi going to the dark side anymore overdone than the pure evil Sith Lords? So far we've seen two pure Sith Lords (meaning never trained as a Jedi), Darth Maul and Darth Sidious, and two Jedi turning to the dark side, Darth Tyrannus and Darth Vader. That seems even to me and I don't see why one is simply disregarded out of hand while the other is seen as being more plausible.
  17. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    I get what you are saying. The thing is though is that Plagueis naysayers have been arguing against it out of cliche, but use the equally used fallen jedi cliche as a counter to it. I personally do not want to see yet another troubled apprentice fall to the dark side. I understand the Sith Lord thing has gotten used a lot too, but Plagueis naysayers were the ones who brought in the cliche card first while backing an equally used cliche. I just would find Plagueis more compelling. In an idea world I would prefer an iconic villain with a completely different background than any that have been suggested here.
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  18. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    I know that the chances of Plagueis being in the ST are very, very slim. Probably less than the chances of surviving an asteroid field.
    But that doesn't stop me from babbling for 3 hours about why I think he should be in.

    I made some posts a while back in this thread where I said talked about the lineage of villains and heroes, which are characteristic to the SW movies (so far).
    In those posts I talked a bit about how, in Plagueis' case, it is more plausible to have him actually alive. Well, not necessarily in physical form, but more of a powerful spirit in the Netherworld of the Force, from where he commands his living, breathing apprentice/pawn in the physical world. And how that could connect to the Mortis storyline, the Whills and Mark Hamill's interview from long ago where he said that (in case there would be a ST) the battle would take place "on another plain of existence".
    But enough about that. The posts are there, I won't re-quote myself. So I'll get straight to the point.

    The question that has always bothered me (well, not always - only since the ST was officially announced) was what are they going to do with the new villain? Will he/she have a point? A real motivation as for why we should take him/her as seriously as we did with Vader and Palpatine?
    Because in case we will get (as some fear) a random bald guy with red eyes and pale skin with the sole purpose of doing bad stuff for reasons (straight from the Movie Villain Cliche Book Volume 1) I don't know how much the audience will be emotionally involved in the storyline.

    Also, having a Skywalker/Solo go bad because...um...emo, is so obvious I don't think that they are even considering it, let alone insert that into the script.
    Having an entire trilogy, not just a spin-off or stand alone movie, means that the new master villain must be someone really really good at being evil. This was another point I made in my previous novel-long posts in this thread about there always being two villains - a master and an apprentice. So if Plagueis is the master, anyone else can be his apprentice - even a fallen Skywalker, as long as he/she doesn't become the master.

    That is the problem, because I can't think of many possibilities to make the ST villain interesting. Pulling a villain straight from their "black holes" won't have the same emotional impact. It will be just a villain, just there, just bad. Oh, and look - we're supposed to be afraid of him/her. I don't know, this entire idea doesn't sounds very good to me.

    I can see why people want something new. But that is something for the spin-offs (that's why they're called spin-offs, right?).
    Calling this Episode 7 means that there will be a continuity for the heroes and villains.
    Episode 7 can't be just an epilogue to RotJ. Because we already have an epilogue - ten thousand or so books, comics and novels set in the years after RotJ. We don't need that anymore.
    It has to be about something more than "let's see what happens to Luke after he becomes a Jedi Master". That alone is not very interesting and it doesn't justify a new trilogy being made. At all...
    Episode 7 just has to have a strong connection to both the PT and OT.

    Considering that Anakin and the Skywalkers were the focus of all the 6 movies, having Plagueis would be kind of interesting, as he is the one who caused Anakin's birth in the first place.

    Again, I'm not saying that it will be Plagueis. I just think that he makes the most sense as filling the master villain's role.
    We may simply get Darth Pale Bald Guy. At this point anything is possible, given the lack of information we have. But speculating is always fun [face_skull]
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Feb 22, 2013
  19. Darth Claire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2012
    star 4
    Trying to think up non-cliche villain. I got one idea *you guys will probably hate it*: What about a villain who actually thinks he's doing the right thing. Like he believes that by getting rid of these certain people *like the Jedi* and taking control he is preventing a much bigger crisis from happening. He probably cites his reasons and explains that he's doing it to "balance the force" . We all know he's wrong but he shouldn't come off as crazy *as in psychopathic crazy*. He can gain followers through his wisdom and ability to speak with logic rather than by brutal force or intimidation. Hell he might even try to convince the heroes that they should join him and "balance the universe". Maybe our heroes will even question if they are on the right side of this conflict. He's not doing what he's doing cause he's all "The dark side must rule the galaxy" but cause he genuinely believes he is doing the right thing.
    am I just describing Thrawn? Dammit
    Last edited by Darth Claire, Feb 22, 2013
  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

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    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    No, you're not describing Thrawn.
  21. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    I understand that and I too wouldn't want another troubled apprentice falling to the dark side over a three film arc. But a Jedi with an absolute conviction from film one that their cause is just and corrupts fellow Jedi to that cause would be okay with me.
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  22. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    I didn't find Plaguies himself to be all that interesting...
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    How is Plagueis not from the Movie Villain Cliche Book Volume 1? All I read so far about him seems to point to power hunger as motivation and necromancy isn't exactly a new concept either. Where's the conflict aside from "he must be stopped"?
    The OT was awesome because there was so much going on. Possessiveness of a father, hope of a boy, redemption, hatred, etc.etc.etc.
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  24. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    What would you like as a villain that wouldn't come off as a rehash of a previous story in the franchise?
  25. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    That's is a great point. Star Wars is about more than just stopping the villain and there has to be something more at stake than that with the ST. I like the Darth Plagueis character (absolutely love the book) but where is the personal stakes in a villain like him?