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Speculation Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 3
    Every villain must be stopped. Unless you want the audience to want him to succeed, at which point he is no longer a villain.
    "It's not the destination that matters, it's the journey"
  2. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    @ Fleab88
    I'm only including movies here, because EU doesn't matter.

    Palpatines kid feeling obliged (out of loyalty) to follow in daddies footsteps and reestablish an empire to make daddy proud. Maybe helping another party like the Mandalorians to take over the galaxy. Like I said before this person could be a dark twin to Jaina. Raised a Sith while she was raised a Jedi. Was it by choice that he/she became evil or by destiny? This being SW the answer would be an optimistic: Everyone has an opportunity to turn to good someday.

    Alternatively I'd be partial for a secret apprentice of Vader. This would include a pretty hefty involvement of Luke as there would be a huge personal conflict. The adopted child (the apprentice) might want to get revenge on Luke out of jealousy (Vader has given up his life for Luke). This again would be a villain who isn't interested in power exclusively but has some other, deeper motivations.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 22, 2013
  3. run_luke_run Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2004
    star 4
    If I have my way, we will all watch Episode 7 and still be debating just who is behind everything, and pondering the existence of some other evil and trying to make all the connections.

    Just imagine if this place existed in 1977.

    Someone would argue that someone mentioned an "Emperor" during the film, and people would be debating whether or not he was relevant or simply a powerful politician. I would bet that most would dismiss his acknowledgement altogether as nothing important at all, much less the true evil Sith lord.
    BigAl6ft6 and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  4. Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 6
    Yes but Star Wars is about more than simply stopping the villain. Redemption of the father could arguably be said to be more important for Luke than defeating the Sith. The ST needs to be about more than getting rid of this guy because he's evil.
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  5. Dra--- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Excellent point. I'm thinking the important aspect in the ST will have to do with the Republic and Jedi not making the mistakes they made in the PT. To me that's the most organic principle they should build on.
    Last edited by Dra---, Feb 22, 2013
  6. Unchosen One Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Just to add another dimension to the discussion on the villain possibilities, am I the only one who thinks incorporating the Hutts as villains for the ST (possibly in vengeance for Jabba) might be a good possibility? Not that they would be the main antagonists, but they could certainly provide more than pure Dark Jedi/Sith villainy. I think it would be cool to see whatever evil Force-wielding villain the ST has in store, teamed with a Hutt criminal empire.
  7. Placeholder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I definitely want to see Hutts
  8. LunarMoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    Some good points here. Even if I disagree with them, I do see your points and understand them.

    As far as your three reason for for not wanting Plageuis:

    1. Plageuis can only stay dead if he is in fact dead. The problem in the discussion with this part is that retaining ones identity after death is something that exists in Star Wars. So what we have is a topic that neither side can "prove" until it happens.

    2. Unfortunately, in an ST taking place after Anakin/Vaders death, having ANY Sith villain is going to undermine certain things to some degree. Back in the day Luke was supposed to find his non-Leia sister in what was supposed to be the ST, and have a final showdown with The Emperor in Ep IX or even XII. I think there was even some guidance from Ghost Anakin at that point. Moving that final showdown with The Emperor to Ep VI is the culprit there. I think this is something we are going to have to accept if it comes to pass, but if they do it right I can see it being acceptable or even great.

    3. If he returns, we will also know he will be defeated. There is still an opportunity for his overconfidence to cost him for good.


    On to your idea:

    I'm all for a good idea and yours is certainly interesting. Forgive my ignorance here, but is the Evil Mother you refer to someone specific, or are you saying that to state the characters position in the story?

    The difference between what I am saying about Plageuis and your presentation is that you are presenting your own idea as to the type of thing you would like to see, where I am speculating based on what we already know and "ingredients" that are available. I totaly get your connections to the saga in your idea, and clearly you are using what we already know to formulate your idea. I also understand that if your idea was spot on, it could certainly be viewed as a natural progression.

    I am up for whatever they write, whether is something that I feel like I can predict as in these speculations, or not. I am sure it will fit the "connecting to the Saga" requirement.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  9. Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 6
    We're in agreement with #1 we don't have enough information. #2 and #3 I certainly understand what you are saying but I just hope that some of the themes and characters are protected. By the way despite my misgivings about him I'm not totally opposed to the idea of Darth Plagueis and I certainly understand your position and agree with alot of it. I happen to be a huge fan of the book. As to my ideas, you must forgive me I get quite carried away when I start discussing them and I can't help talking about my personal plot details when I'm discussing who I think the villain should be. To put it simply the Evil Mother is who I think could be the main antagonist. To answer your question I'm talking about Luke's wife and the protagonists mother (whether she is named Mara Jade is another discussion and it is why I have adopted calling her the Evil Mother.) I really enjoy discussing our ideas and I've really enjoyed yours. We'll just have to wait until 2015 to see!
    Unchosen One and LunarMoth like this.
  10. Darth slaughter Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2013
    star 1
    As the main villain... What about a sort of possession to some extent? If Jedi can come back as force ghosts what if sith found a way? And if so, what if it was someone from the past like darth plagueis or bane. They could take possession, or influence a padawan of Luke.
    I'm not sure how they would have an army behind them.... But it's a start!
  11. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    For Jedi, not for Sith ( where the films are concerned ).
  12. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As a hologram or holocron, or a flashback? That could work. As a resurrected Palpatine? Do not want.
  13. The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    More or less anything is good, except for resurrecting Vader and Palpatine.

    Also, excellent point about Plagueis being the potential main villain, while the pawn could be anyone.
    Having a Sith Empire of sorts re-emerge could be fine as well, if done right. Again, I think the main enemy more or less has to be a Force user (one or more) while, to follow on the_sinister_hologram's point, their pawns could be any of the many potential existing and yet unexisting factions.
    Mandalorians, Nightsisters, fallen Jedi, Imperial remnants, something completely new.
    TreborSabreon and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But if they use the Nightsisters, will it be the EU version where they use TK, Force choke and lightning, or the TCW version where a few use Abra Cadabra Halloween magic and the rest just run around and shoot glowy arrows?
  15. The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    Eh, probably a bit of this and a bit of that and all the new stuff they come up with.
    I'd guess that more or less applies to all already existing organizations/groups.
  16. InterestingLurker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    I want no Sith Lord. This the chance to come up with another threat besides the Sith for the entire Star Wars Saga(and one not as retarded as the Yuuzhan Vong).
  17. LunarMoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    So far.....
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  18. Bullhead CIty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 3
    Hear Ye! Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

    Order in the court!!!

    This thread is desperately in need of an evolution.

    Both sides of the argument have stated their logical takes on the possibility of DP being in the next trilogy. With many more chunking in their ideas of a villain to their specifications. Ideas that, debatably, are more appropriate in the, "Who's the Next Baddie", thread.

    For those *pro-Plagueis* players out there, this post is for you. We need to stop the endless elementary arguments. Answers to 99% of the negative statements can be found in eloquently, logically written rebuttals starting about page 8.

    We need to have meaningful discussions about, not the mechanism that gets Plagueis to the ST, but what Plagueis might be doing in the ST.

    Here's something else to consider:

    The SW saga is a glut of parallel thematic storylines.

    Old master tutoring young pupil. Old master dies, young pupil grows to take up the master's cause.

    Enemies presumed dead reappear to wreak havoc.

    I could go on, but the last statement is what I'd like to elaborate on...

    I see Darth Plagueis in the ST as a "reverse negative", a scanner darkly if you will, of the Ben Kenobi scenario of the OT. Sideous and Vader assumed, at least by the beginning of ANH, that the Jedi no longer existed. Vader was surprised, and even somewhat troubled, by the reintroduction of Kenobi. Then Kenobi does something that blows Vader's mind, Kenobi jumps into the Force to either a.) escape death or b.) to become a further influence on Luke's life. No matter the debatable rationale, as far as Vader was concerned, Obi Wan was dead. His statements to the Emperor, and later Luke, furthered his belief that Obi Wan was dead. Yet, was he? I guess it all depends on your point of view.

    With that being said, we might see more of an actual traditional Sith training program during the ST? I think it would be interesting to center the plot more along the lines of the "bad guys" coming into their own, with the "heroes" poised as obsticles to their goals.
    StoneRiver and Darth Claire like this.
  19. T-R- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 5
    I thought this was only according to Kurtz and not part of GL's vision.

    (the ghost Anakin and a different sister changed during story discussions for TESB when GL decided to make Anakin and Vader the same person. It was also at this time that he decided to definitely make Leia the sister.)

    Would be interesting tohave Luke and the gang serve as the antagonists of the ST as Vader served inthe OT. Don't think GL and Disney want to make a trilogy following the bad guys.
    Last edited by T-R-, Feb 23, 2013
    Dra--- likes this.
  20. DARTHSHAME Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    No Sith would be risky, but interesting if done right. However, I have my doubts.
  21. Bullhead CIty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 3
    How does this idea improve upon the sea of complaints against the use of Plagueis in the ST? After all, the people want a "new villain" with galactic conquest in mind, not a retread of Lord Sideous. How does a wanna be Sith trump a Sith Master in the line of Darth Bane?

    Seriously?

    ???

    How would you explain Obi Wan (Ben) Kenobi's *departure*? Did he die at the hands of Vader? Or was he in control of his destiny? Very relevant questions when now considering the tale of Darth Plagueis.

    What is death? Your definition is a philosophical paradox.


    You must really love the Anakin arc.
  22. Bullhead CIty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 3
    You may have misunderstood the *pro-Plagueis* prose. Plagueis is not believed to have been manipulating or maneuvering anything in the saga post-TPM. It is believed he used the Force to escape, either consciously or literally transferring his body to another space and time. A point the novel brings out some Sith Lords had the ability to do. Whether he just jumped to another space and time in that era, or to the era of the ST remains to be seen.

    Valid argument. The novel indicates abilities with the Force vary from Sith Lord to Sith Lord. And yes, it would be in step from a saga standpoint, if Plagueis survived physically from post-TPM time period, that a methodical, secretive, dark character would choose not to intervene during the course of the Empire's reign; knowing Anakin will balance the Force at some point, and that his apprentice would succeed in dismantling the Republic in order for it to be rebuild in true Sith fashion. Not according to the power trip Sideous and Vader were on.

    Yet, there are some that would like to see elements of the old Empire being used in the ST? I wonder how you might feel about that scenario? Would that be a problem?


    There was foreshadowing. Albeit, not obvious at the time, but now with the ST a go, and a fleshing out of a mentioned character whose plans were hijacked by Palpatine...


    If Plagueis makes it to the ST, no lengthy introduction would be necessary. The novel handles that.

    ---
  23. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    What is this even supposed to mean?

    In the novel, Plagueis was definitely on a power trip.
  24. Bullhead CIty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 3
    What is your definition of power?
  25. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    There are different kinds of power, but political power for me means to be capable of influencing or ordering around a lot of people. Which is what Plagueis tried to achieve.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Feb 23, 2013
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