ST Who's The Baddie?

Why would the special effect not be canonical fact? That's what we see on screen. What's more canon than that? In other words, GL must have wanted the face to appear to transform. Or else he could have had the effect changed. It must signify what it looks like, or else that's terrible storytelling.

Unmasked and further transformed is possible, but pretty convoluted if you ask me. And why doesn't he just remask himself later on if he can?

I think most intelligent beings would wonder why the leader of the Republic's face just radically changed. If he could easily mask it, it would make more sense to look nice and friendly. That's a much better mask.

 

But you answered your question. He wanted to make it look like the Jedi had harmed him. Plus by then it was too late to stop him. He had his governors and sinister agents, and he had a nice set of robes that could cover the up half of his head.

 

I'm sure this has occurred to others before, but while you folks were discussing whether Plagueis was Muun or not, it occurred to me how ironic it is that the Empire is so alien-phobic. Just saying.

 

What's convoluted about it?

The lightsabers are faded in ANH. Does that mean that fading lightsabers is canon?

I doubt Palpatine looked upon Plagueis very kindly.

 

I should have noted that the novel did describe the lightning as having damaged Palpatine's face, so I took it that his transformation was a little bit of both. The nails and the teeth do suggest that he'd been deformed by overuse of dark side power over time though, as others have noted. The way I interpreted that statement ("The mask becomes the man") was basically how you described it in your edit; that the "mask" was meant to represent the hidden darkness within which was brought to the forefront after his deformity and the potential "destruction" of his Force mask via Force lightning. So the inner darkness that is Sidious is now revealed to all to see, and Palpatine figured he could still use this to his advantage to prove to the galaxy that he was indeed a victim of an attack by the Jedi. After that, there was no need to hold onto the Palpatine illusion any longer, I think. It shows to all to see that there was actual lasting damage to his visage that couldn't be so easily repaired, and by the time the Empire had grown repressive he felt no need to revert back to the "old" face of Palpatine. He had bigger fish to fry, as he had already achieved galactic power, and felt confident in his ability to maintain it after the Death Star and his other superweapons were fully developed and deployed.

 

Exactly what I was trying to say.

 

Why would he make it look like the Jedi harmed him that way? Why not a lightsaber scar? Instead the Jedi somehow make him look gray and deformed? How? It creates a lot of unnecessary questions that aren't easily answered.

In fact -- I wanted to point this out above -- if Palpatine was only trying to fool Mace and Anakin into thinking he was being injured, why continue the facade afterward unless he had actually been transformed? The people in the galaxy weren't in that room with them. There's no reason to show them this specific injury at all. If he wanted sympathy, he could show them something less suspicious.

Palpatine could have told Anakin afterward that he would now create an illusion of an unharmed or less harmed face so the Republic wouldn't suspect his true Sith identity. If he could do so. I don't believe he could.

"The mask becomes the man." "The face of Sidious will serve."

 

The RotS novel actually revealed that the Senate had laws in place that prohibit the persecution of individuals based on religious or philosophical beliefs―including Sith. In the EU, this was the nullification of the Anti-Sith bill sometime prior to the end of the Clone Wars. Here's a transcript of what Palpatine actually said to the Jedi when Mace Windu and the other three Masters forcibly entered his office (shame it wasn't in the actual film):

So one can conclude that the general public doesn't care whether or not Palpatine is actually a Sith Lord, so long as he keeps the trains running on time. He's already become an extremely popular figure in the public eye by then, and the public at large wouldn't care that he was in truth a Sith; especially considering that most citizens don't even know what a Sith is, let alone be able to distinguish one from a Jedi. To circle back to your point, Dra---, that suspicion might not even be "unnecessary" if he actually revealed to the public that he was in fact a Sith Lord (not that he would, but most people probably won't care), and the subsequent transformation of his face was a result of both the Jedi's attack and them turning his powers against him.

On a related note, Lucas originally had the idea of having the Yoda vs. Sidious duel recorded and broadcasted publicly throughout the Republic, which would have proven without a shadow of a doubt that Palpatine was indeed a Sith Lord and shared many of the Jedi's abilities. So it appears that your concern about "unnecessary questions" probably doesn't matter to the Republic citizenry as you think.

 

There are so many myths about Jedi throughout the galaxy that I'm not sure the public is fully aware what the Jedi can and cannot do to someone. Nute Gunray, in all of his business dealings had never encountered a Jedi Knight before TPM. Anakin flat out said that nobody can kill a Jedi. They are sorcerers.

Why not a lightsaber scar? I assume that would be painful. If it came from Mace, it would likely be more than a scar. Where as if he's just dropping the mask and showing what the dark side has done to him over time, perhaps it doesn't hurt him? Then he could just go to the Senate, look like he had acid splashed on him, and be done with it?

For all Anakin knew, that bit of dark side lightning directly did transform Palpatine on the spot. Why tell him it didn't? What does he gain from telling Anakin that it just removed the mask and that he always looked this ill from the dark side and not some freak side effect from having it used against you? "Hey Anakin, once you're strong enough in the dark side, you'll look just like me! It's all good! I'll teach you how to not look hideous so that one day, when you're looking to force someones hand, you can use it to trick them!" The mask wouldn't be a selling point.

But also, whenever he transformed into Sidious, he did always put a cloak over his head and lower his voice. Now that mask will become a permanent feature to sell his story and poison.

 

Well, this could all be settled if we could see a closeup of the face on the statue that was toppled. That (and an official portrait hanging in the Senate) would have been his public image.

 

Just my 2 cents - I saw the new planet of the apes the other day and it has left me convinced that a CGI villain/antagonist can actually be menacing and fantastic. So if they decide to go mocap with Serkis with Sidow as the voice I have no fears. Not saying that's how they should have the bad guy, but I have faith if that's the path they choose.


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I don't. Okay, fine...I can picture waiting a hundred years, if they can live that long to care about it still, but I can't picture an evil bastard paving the way for some other evil bastard so that he can rule in his stead. Nah, despots, or wannabe despots, are impatient and would rather have everything for themselves...now, not later. Alexander the Great, Napoleon and Hitler are just some of the prime examples of what these people are like. You think they were doing this for others? No. They wanted to achieve more than all their predecessors in the past, which is to become absolute ruler over all. To say that the Sith was patient and willing to wait all those years, even if they could live that long, is ridiculous. I'm not saying that doing all that prep work isn't needed, but I'm sure a hundred years would have sufficed...but again, only if they can live that long.

 

I now think it makes more sense for someone to want power immediately than wait 1000 years to come up with the "perfect" plan. As I said before, if Plagueis or anyone else waited 1000 years to come up with the plan to take over the galaxy, how lame is is that they get defeated over the course of a few movies. Then, they wait another 30 years and get whipped in the course of a couple of new movies.

It doesn't seem to make for a very good villain if you look at it that way.

 

Agreed. I know this a complete retcon (which I hate by the way), but I think it would make more sense to say that Plagueis was just some disgruntled alien Jedi Master who decided to become a Sith a hundred years before TPM, and Palpatine just so happens to be his first apprentice who later kills him in his sleep. It would be more logical than saying an old line of Sith had orchestrated corruption and dissension through the years and bided their time until all was right for the taking. Or better yet, say that Plagueis was this ancient being who was only concerned with eternal life and that everything else didn't matter to him. Whatever the case, those thousand years would only make sense if the Sith really didn't exist, because I can't picture anybody waiting that long to do anything.

 

I think GL saw the Sith as being like the Illuminati and HYDRA. Those organizations have no problem waiting.

 

The amount of waiting a Sith Lord is willing to endure is probably directly proportional to the degree of wealth and personal power they coupled with how many personal projects they have going on the side. For all we know, once one of the early Sith Lords did the work of accumulating enough wealth to live off well off the interest, most of the subsequent Sith Lords were like Plagueis... more focused on using the Sith's power/resources to pursue their own personal projects/research than actually moving the ball further down the court towards galactic domination. It wasn't until Sidious, whose personal project was conquering the galaxy, came along that the Sith (meaning Sidious) started getting serious about galactic conquest.

Heck, for all we know, the entire galaxtic conquest thing could have just been Sidious' idea and the vast majority of the previous Sith Lords were happy with their secret society and exploring the depths and powers of the dark side undisturbed by Jedi trying to skewer them. We don't even know how many of the previous Rule of Two Sith masters were actually murdered by their apprentices and how many just died of old age with the apprentice picking up where his mentor left off and eventually picking a new
apprentice for himself (one of the virtues Bane intended to bestow was patience after all).

Maybe Palpatine murdering his old master out of impatience and his personal interest being conquest rather than academic research into the nature of the dark side was the abberation and not the rule for the Sith these past 1000 years.

 

Whatever the case, those thousand years would only make sense if the Sith really didn't exist, because I can't picture anybody waiting that long to do anything.

Agreed-which makes me wonder about the Ancient Fear. One idea I had is that the Ancient Fear is not an individual or group but rather a prophecy from long ago. In attempting to prevent it, someone causes it to happen.

 

A prophecy that someone causes to happen by attempting to prevent it? Seems like we've seen that one before...

 

The mask was the Old Republic and the Empire, the Monster.

 

Something I'm womdering is just how powerful a Force-user can be in canon.

 

I know that I jump on folks too much for ideas that I do not agree with for one reason or another, so now I offer some bait for you folks...

In my reading too much into things, I have this inkling that the final episodes of TCW that were done after the show was cancelled, were done with the future of the saga in mind. Especially the fact that they made big decisions on changing the name of the Sith Homeworld of Korriban to Moraband and that they decided to canonize Darth Bane as the father of the Rule of Two, but only after they drastically changed his known appearance.

Part of me thinks that the baddie could involve Moraband and possibly Darth Bane in one form or another.

 

I think that is sound speculation.

 

Something like that would not be totally implausible.

 

I think the reality is that Lucas kept it purposely vague in order to maintain some sense of mystery. Whether one believes that Palpatine’s benevolevnt face was some sort of Sith trickery or that Sidious’ visage was a result of force lightning, neither view is wrong at this juncture. I have to admit that I like that uncertainty and mystery. I always personally favoured the notion that Palpatine was older than his perceived years, and was somehwat dissapointed when that didn't appear to be the case in the Plaguies novel. Now that the novel is no longer canon, perhaps Palpatine's origins become once again shrouded in mystery... to be unearthed in the ST perhaps?

 

True, though I loved the novel, the only part I didn't like was that Palpy is first introduced as a teenager. I would have liked it more if Plagueis met him as an adult, to keep his backstory more secret.
Regarding his Muun identity. I wonder why GL specifically wanted him to be a Muun. Did he want to explain how the Sith got their resources? Did his backstory being a banker only develop after this decision, if so what was Luceno's original plan? I think that a much better idea (in light of a possiible ST on the horizon) would have been to have put Plagueis inside a Life Support Suit, kinda like Tali from Mass Effect, where you always wonder how he looks like beneath the suit. It would have left all options open for the ST. Heck maybe Plagueis wasn't really a Muun, but rather the true Plagueis was in the Muun like this lil fellow from MIB:



or his droid riding counterpart from S5 of TCW: