ST Who's The Baddie?

I think we agree, except I would like a nod to the Sith as being the most powerful Order of darksiders. I'm not including dark Force gods here, like the Son.

Sort of like how the Joker has a special status in Batman or Magneto and Apocalypse in X-Men.

The GC rumors are interesting to me because they possibly suggest two things I like -- Imperial Knights and Sith.

Devin uses the "S" word for her, which I think suggests Sith not stormtrooper because first he says shes an Imperial and then maybe "S."

We can obviously have new darksiders like the Inquistor or Nightsisters, but unless they seek ultimate power like the Sith, how could they be as dangerous to the galaxy as a whole?

 

Lucas was clear that Sith cannot become one with the Force as the Jedi discovered to do. Nobody is arguing that.

So I will pose to you the same question I have to others who are more on your interpretation of this subject......

Lets just say that the point comes in the ST where a Sith returns from the dead, be it spirit, mummy, zombie, or anything else. Any Sith. Plagueis, Palpatine, Bane, Revan, whoever you like..... Does it still not make sense to you, or do you see that the information put out here by myself and plenty of others was, for lack of a better term, correct?

To answer the flip side of this, if we do not see a Sith return from the dead, I have no beef. I see that the material can be interpreted that way as well.

I will say that I hope we do see it becasue I think it serves the story better, but I only say that not knowing what has been written for the ST.

 

The thing is the Sith CANNOT come back from the dead.

 

At the time of ROTJ maybe. But 30 years later?

 

disappointing so no zombie sith.

 

No - because it cannot be learned after death, e.g.. Qui-Gon

 

Sorry no - but we could have non-with zombies

 

Actually, now I'm going to watch Supernatural

Laters

 

really, what season are you at?

 

But zombies aren't truly alive. They're living DEAD. It's all in the details.

EDIT: Seriously. Do I really have to point out that the latest rumor is that Driver really does play THE baddie?

 

Season 1

back when it first came out I was watching it every week - I got to the opening teaser on episode 20 (vampire episode) and it is rather long, complicated story as to what happened then - but suffice to say I near had the chance to catch up until now - last Friday I finally got to finish the vampire episode

 

Hogsquattle: Ok, you wanted a serious debate on this subject. Let's get it over with.

I agree that it would be almost impossible for the Sith to become ghosts. But Pablo Hidalgo has said that it isn't impossible, merely improbable. That is, he said it would take an "extraordinary Sith" to become a ghost. So no, not impossible, but very very unlikely.

As for the idea that the Sith Order was destroyed simply by killing Palpatine and Vader off, that does not follow. Not only could there have been a secret apprentice or student, it's absurd to assume that Palpatine didn't have some plan for this kind of situation. He could have books, holocrons, databases of information on how to recreate the Sith. He might have loyal followers whose duty would be to train a new Sith. None of these were destroyed when the Emperor died. So it is false to assume the knowledge of how to be a Sith is gone.

In fact, it is much more likely that Palpatine had a Sith line of succession ready for such a scenario. Recall that in TCW he had been taking Force sensitive children and a Jedi holocron that listed who they were. It's possible he was keeping some of these children around and training them to pick up where he left off in case of catastrophe. That's more logical.

Keep in mind that Palpatine was likely to get rid of the Rule of Two after creating the Empire. The reason the Rule was in place was to ensure that the Sith wouldn't self-destruct before achieving control of the Republic and destroying the Jedi (as per Plagueis in his novel -- Legends EU). After those goals were accomplished, Palpatine would be more likely to create a larger hierarchy of Sith. For example, Palpatine creates the Inquisitor after the Empire is created, evidence that a larger order of darksiders (or lesser Sith) is now allowed. Although he is not technically a Sith, it says a lot that the Rule has been relaxed or altered that he's willing to create darkside agents of the Sith. Why wouldn't some of them eventually want to become Sith themselves and take more power? We have no reason to believe that these agents or Inquisitors don't know what the Sith are.

So what it really comes down to is if Lucas, KK, and JJ want to bring the Sith back. Obviously there are story ways to do it. The prophecy, for example, is very vague. Does it refer to one "Sith" that must be destroyed, or the whole Order? The existence of Sith alone didn't make the Force go out of balance. Only the actions of a particular Sith (Palpatine). The Sith existed for a thousand years at least before TPM. We never hear that the Force was out of balance until the PT.

Does the prophecy say that the Force will be balanced immediately, or that it will take some time after destroying "the Sith?" What does balance mean unless the Republic is restored to a pristine Republic and the Jedi Order rebuilt and all Imperial remnants destroyed? It can't just mean the Force -- that lacks meaning in the corporeal galaxy where events play out through politics, commerce, and war. Did all corruption that Palpatine helped to create disappear after Palpatine died? Obviously not -- that's absurd. There is no balance.

So there are plenty of in world ways to bring the Sith back. The big question is does Lucas and KK want to do it? I think they would. And many of the rumors about Driver and Christie and others suggest the Sith are returning. We'll have to wait and see. But let's not pretend that for in universe reasons alone it's somehow logically impossible for the Sith Order to return. That's just not true.

EDIT: I forgot to add that Lucas made the prophecy thing because he thought the OT was the end. But now it's not. Hence, it's very possible he might decide to revise the idea of the Sith being gone. We all know Lucas likes to revise things, right?

 

When considering Sith for the ST, one must answer this key question (bringing this back from the Sith in the ST thread ) :

To Sith, or not to Sith, that is the question:
Whether ‘tis Crueler to the mind to suffer
The Hate and Anger of the bestial Dark Side
Or to take Arms against a world of Jedi
And by opposing, end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and to achieve immortality
We end all the various weaknesses
That Flesh is heir to? A Sith must never
Accept death, but live. Never die, nor sleep.
But to sleep, to Dream; of unlimited POWER!

 

Dark Jedi. Sith. What's the difference?

 

Dra--- (not sure if I'm tagging right - simply @ followed by username?)

That is a long one and I'm between Supernatural episodes - season 1 finale (I think John buys it it this one )

I've promised myself to stay off the forum on Saturdays and Sundays, but I'll try read and reply tomorrow if I can

There is a difference.

If you have to ask, I say "what???"

 

So apparently Asajj Ventress has had a makeover. She's now blond.

 

*cue the "Gwendoline Christie is blonde and Asajj is now blonde so therefor Gwendoline must be playing Asajj*

 

Cool.

She decided to let that bald pate grow.

 

Well, I'm asking.

 

Hogsquattle What if the Sith appear, but aren't the bad guys?

 

Nah, there's a reason why Carrie dyed her hair....

 

From Darth Hamlet

Generally, yes, but it doesn't always "take" and actually make it a linked tag. So the best way to do it is to type the @ and then start typing their username, while watching for username options that match what you've typed so far to appear in the dropdown below there. Then select the one you want from that list.

 

This is what I've always said about that stupid "balance between Jedi and Sith" theory. It's like saying balance between Americans and Nazis. The very definition of "evil" is "something that the world would be better without".

 

I understand that this has been discussed before - probably many times. And it likely will be again. Many times.

This is the only thing I could find online where Hidalgo mentions Sith Ghost so I’m assuming this is what you are referencing -

Pablo Hidalgo "Hey Pablo. Can i ask is Sith force ghost canon ? thinking about Nadd, Exar Kun etc. Some force ghosts have been in old republic area." I'd say you'd be very unlikely to see a Sith spirit in a cinematic story unless it had a very exceptional origin. The whole point is transcendence of death is a very, very rare and special thing.


He never said a Sith ghost is “isn't impossible” or "merely improbable” or mentioned an “extraordinary Sith” - this barely resembles what he said.

He says it "unlikely" to happen unless they have an "exceptional origin” (? I’m guessing he means a story or reason that can explain it) - The whole point is transcendence of death is a very, very rare and special thing - just too special for any Force character to be able to do it wily nily, Sith or Jedi (we don’t even know if Luke will)

As I said earlier, a secret apprentice hidden away, would nullify the entire confrontation in the Death Star throne room.
Luke wasn’t there just to try to save his father, he was there to end Palpatine and the Sith once and for all.
And if anyone Force sensitive with dark inclinations, stumbled upon any books, holocrons or databases they could learn things but simply reading about how to be a Sith doesn’t teach you how to be a Sith. Nor reading about a Jedi, teach you to be a Jedi.
And any "loyal followers” couldn’t teach someone how to be be a Sith if they are not a Sith themselves.

Palpatine’s line of succession was Vader - or Luke - depending on who won.
In TCW, Palpatine hasn’t “been taking Force sensitive children”, this is the first attempt we ever hear of him. In Children of the Jedi he is planning on altering the children surgically to create “an army of Sith spies” within the Jedi (he intends for them to be rescued).
There is no evidence that he intends to let them live beyond Order 66.
I don’t think the arrogance Palpatine showed at Endor shows that he ever anticipated such a catastrophe - the Jedi were the only ones who could take him down, and until Luke popped up, they were all dead.
The PT and TCW also show that while recruiting Dark Siders he wasn’t willing to make them all Sith - Maul, Dooku and Vader were the only ones he recruited as Sith - note that there is no Darth Ventriss or Darth Savage - this is not because they are Dooku apprentices, it is because they are not , and never will be Sith.

All that I have read on the Rule of Two shows that the Sith were never again going to swell the ranks.
It wasn’t a Rule of Two to stop Sith from killing each other only before they came to power , it was to prevent them turning on each other when they had achieved power and the Jedi were no longer a threat.
The Inquisitor is a Dark Sider. Hidalgo makes it very clear. He is not a Sith.
There are no “lesser Sith”. There is just Sith or not Sith.

It was the existence of the Sith that made the Force go out of balance.
It wasn’t just Palpatine - though he is the one who who did the damage - it was also that the Sith had been working quietly away for a thousand years.
The imbalance didn’t happen all at once - but just like the Jedi couldn’t sense that the Sith still existed, they could see the balance shifting.
The Jedi beginning to to lose the ability to use the Force is a part of the imbalance - we don’t know when that began.

It is the “balance of the Force”, not the “balance of galactic politics”.
It is just about the Force. Which is about so much more than who is in power.
Palpatine’s corruption of the Republic and creation of the Empire is not a part of the cause of the imbalance of the Force - it is a consequence of it.
Dominions rise and fall, civilisations crumble and new societies take their place.
This are material and transient things - the Force is forever.
It is about life itself.
The Sith upset the natural order in their secret quest for power. The Force saw it coming (for lack of a better term) and set about preparing to set it right.
First, with the prophecy. Then, with Anakin.

Rumours are just that - and if you do not know the source then you cannot accurately determine the reliability of what they say and know.
For example, someone has seen the script, or is on set, and Driver and Christie actually referred to as Sith are bad guys with Force powers or just called Dark Siders. Is the source aware that in Star Wars mythology not all Dark Siders are Sith. Even in this forum, and this thread, in fact the terms Sith and Dark Siders are used as one in the same thing, e.g. I said there can’t be Sith after RotJ, and a user asks me can I not see anyway for there to be Dark Siders in the ST, even though I made it clear that I didn’t Dark Siders = Sith.
And there is reasons why it is “logically impossible” for them to return, as I stated above.

Whether Lucas ever foresaw the production of the ST, doesn’t affect the Prophecy of the Chosen One. Anakin is the Chosen One and the story of Anakin ends in RotJ.
This doesn’t change because of the ST. The balance is restored.
The prophecy is fulfilled.
However, the consequences of Anakin’s decisions (and the actions of the all the Sith) will have a lasting impact on the universe as well as Luke.

You mean someone who harnesses the power of pure evil, but he/she is rather quite nice? Doing charity work?
It is irrelevant whether a Sith is the Big Bad of that particular story - they can't be in a post-RotJ story.
There is no left to teach the ways of the Sith. The Sith can come back from the dead in any form. There isn't another Sith somewhere in the galaxy in hiding or in a long sleep.
This would all void, both Anakin's final actions and the entire purpose of Luke confronting the Sith at Endor.

Okay, I'll help - TCW has examples of both Light Siders and Dark Siders who are neither Sith nor Jedi.

 

A secret apprentice or some other continuation of the Sith wouldn't "nullify" the throne room confrontation. It would just change it a bit. In my opinion the significance of Vader's actions were as follows in order of importance:

1. Saving Luke
2. Bringing himself back from the Dark Side
3. Killing the Emperor & ending his rule

That was really it for 20 years. Then the PT introduced two new elements which I personally place a long way back in importance:

4. Destroying the lineage of the Sith
5. Bringing "balance" to the Force & fulfilling the "prophecy" (you know, the one Yoda said could have been misread)

Now, other people would list these things in a different order & that's cool, each to their own. If you place a huge importance on items 4 & 5 then I can understand your angst about the return of
the Sith (hey, catchy title). You may even think it nullifies the whole throne room scene, but to me that's an extreme view to take.

IMO the problem is we're all so used to these questions & themes being set in stone for the past 30 years. Maybe you think it would nullify it bcs that scene & it's consequences are so ingrained in your thoughts. If you happened to see Ep6 in 1983 with the knowledge that there was definitely going to be an Ep7 three years later you may have viewed things differently. You would have put your assumptions on hold bcs you knew another chapter of the story was going to come out soon.

Here's the deal: we all thought it was the end of the story but it turns out it wasn't. Storylines that we thought had been resolved are now back on the table & a whole new range of possibilities are in play. If we're completely inflexible about these things we may be in for a frustrating time as we watch the ST. Maybe as the green guy would say we should just "unlearn what we have learned" & go in with an open mind. Or not...whatever, it makes for some entertaining debate