ST Who's The Baddie?

But Palpatine isn't really castrated. To be truly castrated in the sense that I'm talking about, a villain in principle isn't strong enough to rule on their own. TPM proves my point actually -- Palpatine is making a power play because he has the power to make the play. And he succeeds. The queen is never really the boss of him, but his dupe.

He's a darksider smart enough and powerful enough to take power from the non-Force users in the Senate. And he does.

The kind of plot you seem to want -- correct me if I'm wrong -- is a darksider who can't manipulate the non-Force users for some reason. Or do you just imagine them starting off like Palpatine and then taking power?

 

Ah, so that is what you meant. I too think that the main darksider villain should be a person of ambition, someone who not blindly follows but pursues his own grand goals. Otherwise he would just appear like a henchman, kinda like Darth Maul.

No, I am talking about Episode VII, the setup of the story. I am sure that some sort of dynamic between the villains will be implemented. Maybe the darksider makes his bid for power and succeeds. Maybe he is smacked down by the evil Emperor. Or maybe the Emperor is assassinated by foes, the darksider takes his place and vows to revenge the humiliation of the Empire. Those are all fine options for me, though I would prefer not to see a repetition of Palpatine's rise to power.

 

Ah, I see. We were radically misunderstanding each other.

And I kept waiting for you to bring up the idea that the darksider might be loyal for family reasons. That's one of the better "castrations" I can imagine. He's loyal to the non-Force using Emperor because its his father or mother.

I just wouldn't want to see another Savage -- an idiot darksider -- or another C'baoth -- a mad Force user. These are characters who in principle could never be realistic big threats. Their flaws are too big.

 

I think Anakin qualified as an "idiot darksider". Fortunately his IQ climbed sharply by the time we saw him in ANH.

By the way, do you guys think Vader was "castrated" or was he intact? Sounds like he may fit your description, except in ESB.

 

In ESB Vader seems like he can and wants to rule the universe. Then in ROTJ he's back to being under Palpatine's thrall. Weird stuff.

It's a good question and something of a mystery to answer. I think most people like ESB Vader. Going off that version, he seems like he could take power.

 

ROTJ Vader is all self-lies. "Palpatine made me do the evil stuff, he is responsible, not me!" "I followed orders" is the oldest excuse in the book. Often enough Vader is too clever for his own good.

As for whether he worked as a villain: Are we really asking this question? Really?

 

In ESB Vader is jockeying for position to take out Palpatine. When he comes up short in convincing Luke to join him he has to take a step back in his relationship with Palpatine.

I wonder what, if anything, Palpatine had to hold over Vader's head to keep him in line. He used the possibility of saving Padme as a means to turn Anakin to the dark side but I can't help but think Palpatine had something, some piece of information, some tool or weapon that kept Vader from either killing Palpatine or just doing a kamikaze in an attempt to take Palpatine out because after Padme dies he doesn't really have much, if anything, to live for. He's a pale shadow of his former physical self, his wife and child are dead(so he thinks), everyone he knew and everything he believed in is gone. It seems, to me at least, to be a rather pathetic and depressing existence.

I wonder if there's something about the Sith that hasn't been revealed to us, the audience, yet.

 

Probably just a case of Sith lightning + Vader's suit = dead Vader.

In ESB he seemed to want to groom Luke to take out the Emperor.

 

Not really. Vader can take more and more intense force lightning than his younger self before passing out. A toaster isn't more vulnerable to electricity than human flesh. If Vader has problems with anything, it is water. Swimming in that armor wouldn't work, I would think.

The answer to all these questions is fairly obvious. Even if Vader took out the Emperor, it doesn't mean that he suddenly becomes the Emperor himself. Before that happens, he would need to be accepted by most of the imperial admiralty and the Moffs and other powerful figures. Seeing as diplomacy is not Vader's strength, like at all, he has his work cut out for him. It would be beyond stupid to kill the Emperor before he is ready to do so.

In fact, the new Vader comic will show Vader's rise to power after ANH. The author likened it to Vader building his own KGB. I am guessing that only after the events of the comic series is Vader strong enough to become Emperor.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=54346&page=article

 

Seems fair enough, & by the time of ESB he had a strong enough network of lackeys to take out the Emperor with Luke's help. Tarkin's death was also no doubt significant in the rise of Vader's status.

It is interesting though that when he meets Luke on Endor he has no interest in using him to depose the Emperor. To use your earlier analogy, the massive pair he had in ESB seemed to have shriveled somewhat.

 

Kieron Gillen told RFR (I think it was RFR anyway) that he was always interested in why Vader was so submissive to Tarkin in ANH. I think he will will explore that in his new comic. Obviously something happened prior to A New Hope that put Palpatine's right hand man in disfavour.

I don't think Vader would have a network - could he trust anyone in a plot against the Emperor?

As to his bag shrinkage? I always assumed that Vader was just too conflicted after Bespin or Palpatine somehow discovered Vader's "offer" to Luke.

What if there is no big bad guy in Episode VII?

 

This is what I had in mind. Why wouldn't the Jedi be aware of the possibility?

The characters who believed this were arrogant and complacent. Never does Luke express such a belief.

What about "I don't want to assume anything"?

 

The big bad is King Nidge.

 

But he has. It is all but confirmed by Gillen. It's probably not hard to find people who hate the Emperor.

I'm guessing that at this point he doubted everything, including his plans to become Emperor and his own hunger for power. Maybe deep down he realized that it wouldn't make him happy.

 

Actually I wouldn't mind for the very big bad of the trilogy to be a non-Force user. First, it would be fresh. Second, the reasons why he/she/it CAN be the big bad needs to be explored. What if he is a very powerful mandalorian or Yuuzhan Vong, or something similar that can effectively combat and kill force users. Or what if the big bad is like GO-TO? A droid that projects the hologramm of a sith lord?

 

Is it obvious something happened? Maybe Tarkin was just always the most senior guy in the Imperial military. Ever since we saw him standing alongside Palpatine at the end of RotS.
Another possibility is that Tarkin commanded the Death Star so while Vader was on board he had to answer to him. Maybe Tarkin wasn't his superior though in a wider context.

Not a network to actually help overthrow Palpatine but a network of support ready to follow him after he killed the Emperor. I think Veers would've been his right hand man

 

A couple of things, just as a counter to your post... What makes you think Palpatine was able to ensure a body was burnt etc? Palpatine may have had to exit the scene quickly... or... Perhaps Palpatine was only interested in getting rid of his masters corporeal self. Perhaps Palpatine knew that Plaguies could survive the death of his corporeal self, but was not concerned with Plageuis' spirit etc? Maybe that's why Palpatine knows that only 'one' had learnt how to 'cheat death'? So Plageuis survivied, but was unable to influence events post the death of his physical body? A bit similar to how Bane was haunted by Kaan.

I think the bottom line is, as far as ANH production was concerned, Vader was just the 'henchan'. It was only after the massive popular reaction to SW and Darth Vader, that he obviously became more prominent (even if that was always Lucas' intent). On later inspection, the relationship between Vader and Tarkin appears odd because the subsequent films depict Vader to be much more powerfull and much more closer to the Emperor. So we, the fans, then like to create a little backstory for such idiosyncrasies.

 

I think Max von Sydow is the big bad - Driver and Christie are his heirs (by blood or by bond) and the muscle - perhaps Drivers takes over as the series progresses.

I'd like it if the were not Force users, but highly skilled in combat so they are equal to even a Jedi like Luke.

I believe initially that it was a combination of Lucas feeling the audience wouldn't buy the guy in the armour as being in charge especially with an actor like Cushing - the likes Vader is traditionally the the muscle to brain (Blofeld and Jaws) - and Lucas being not quite sure of exactly who Vader was.

Clearly, in light of the next two movies and the Prequels (as well as TCW) there is no one above a Sith Lord - usually.

I don't know if Lucas ever hinted that Vader had fallen out of favour with Palps around that time but it has been discussed many times. I think the notion even surfaced in the Trawn trilogy.

Yes, that makes sense. Have it established for after the deed, but nit let any of them in on it beforehand.

I think Piett would have done well in that instance too - Vader must have kept him breathing for a reason.

 

For Sith, there is ONLY the corporeal self.

Yes, and based on Gillen's comments, I think there is going be be an upset in the relationship between Vader and the Emperor revealed.

 

I know what you mean, but Vader was never "just the henchman". Even before ANH came out he was the villain most prominently represented on posters & advertising. In the film itself he was menacing & had terrifying powers like being able to choke a man with his thoughts. We're told he killed Luke's father & then he defeats & "kills" Obi-Wan.

He may have been depicted as slightly subordinate to Tarkin but he still deserves to be considered the main villain of the film, if not the most senior villain. You'll note that before he was hugely popular Lucas went to the trouble of including a scene showing him escaping & surviving the final battle. Yes he took on even more prominence after ANH but a "henchman" description drastically undersells his role within ANH itself.

Of course Leia tried to insult him by suggesting he was merely a henchman with her "leash" comment. I hope you didn't take that too seriously

 

Yes, he was a focus of the advertising and such - because of his appearance - and old man is as cool on a movie poster or lunch box as an iron clad knight.

However, in regards to story Lucas may have doubted the audience's willingness to accept him as the leader - in 007 movies the cool memorable villain is usually the muscle to a known actor's brain.

He was clearly intended to survive, and the fact that Tarkin treats him with respect and never talks down to him in the usual fashion of such a relationship, shows that Lucas never intended Vader to be just the muscle - but Tarkin is clearly in charge and in a position of authority over Vader.

Leia's remark at the time was no doubt to express the fact that Vader is answerable to the Grand Moff, but looking at it now, it could be that Leia knew something of the "disfavour" and was having a go at Vader about it.

 

My theory is that Tarkin was the absolute authority on the death star (besides the Emperor) and that he didn't have to answer to anyone when it comes to death star matters. Vader was probably only a "visitor" tasked by the Emperor personally to help Tarkin any way he can.

If I understand military protocol correctly, if an admiral visits a ship from a different fleet, the captain of that ship still remains in command and can overrule the admiral.

So even if Vader had a massive fleet, on board of the death star Tarkin would still be in command. And Vader would have to follow his orders because the Emperor demanded it.

 

I’d agree with that in terms of Vader seemingly having a bit more history/development than your run of the mill henchman... but I don’t view ‘henchman’ as being a criticism of the character... in fact they often turn out to be the more iconic/well known characters. However, as Hoggsquattle points out... it’s a no brainer that Vader would be used for marketing (as Maul was to Sidious in TPM). And the James Bond similarities in dynamics are worth noting. Vader is to Tarkin as Jaws is to Stromberg... and I think Jaws walked away intact from that movie too. Lucas does use that dynamic quite frequently... not only in the SW films, but in the Indy movies, where the ‘chief antagonist’ is usually the intellectual and the henchman is the muscle/physically imposing one. As far as Vader’s role in ANH goes, I suppose only Lucas knows for sure the intent...

 

What, Peter Cushing lunchboxes weren't big sellers?!?

Vader in ANH doesn't fit the "muscle" archetype like say Jaws in the Bond films. Vader was shown as a very senior commander of men in his own right. I get what you mean but I think it's only partially the case.