Whos the most powerful dark-sider under Palpitines rule?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by chissdude10, Oct 8, 2001.

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  1. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    "And yes, the word is also used in SW for people from Naboo."

    No, that would be Nabooian. Nubian is for people of the planet Nubia.

    The royal starships of Naboo are of Nubian design. The workings of them. The Naboo added chrome to desinate royality and accually made the ships work better than normal and such. They didn't build their own ships.

    No shipyard... no industry besides plasma containment and use. Thus, no way to make ships. So they buy from Nubia. Thus, the ships have "Nubian hyperdrive(s)."
  2. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Nabooians are actually colony from nubia about 500 years old right wedge?
  3. darth-skycrawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    I think the idea of Jerec rivalling Vader is ridculous. Vader as Mcallum said will proove why he was the chosen one. Lucas has said that at the age of 19 Anakin has the skill of a master. Lucas has also said that Luke realised it would be impossible to beat his father physically but he could defeat him spiritually. Mcallum also said that Anakin is better than Obi Wan at the age of 19 and he knows it.
    All these quotes seem to show us that Anakin is the going to be the greatest fighter ever. If Jerec was a jedi master before he turned it made no difference since Anakin could beat masters as a teenager.
    The EU authors should show some respect for Anakin he is the chosen one. He has the highest midi count ever. The chances of Jerec or Lumiya bein better than him in an new literature is going to be very slim. Lucas's idea of Vader has changed. Originally he was going to be only a 4 in the force with Kenobi being a 6. The authors of Jerec must have been going about this rather than new literature. That is why any new books will not have anyone being better than Vader.
  4. chissdude10 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    Let me make it clear I ment any Dark Jedi under the Empier including Dark Jedi from the EU that were affiliated with the Empier. The only person I would omit is Kuller.
  5. El_Cid_Campeador Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2001
    It is quite simple. In black and white, Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II states that Jerec rivalled Lord Vader in terms of power. There is no way to misinterpret that statement.

    In Enemy of the Empire, Lord Vader admitted that he durst not attack the Emperor directly, because, in his own words, "Palpatine's mastery will always be greater."

    Was Lord Vader more powerful, potentially, than his Emperor? Probably. But was he more powerful, in fact? No.

    Jerec has superior training and knowledge of the dark side to Lord Vader. Ergo, this superior training and knowledge makes him a match for Lord Vader, despite the latter's greater potential.
  6. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    Val, Maybe. They do have similar names. All I know off the top of my head is what I stated in my last post. That all comes from the DK publishing Star Wars Episode 1 books. And the info about Naboo being settled is from them too. Yet, I don't know the exact details.

    If not Nubia... someplace else. :)
  7. Ana Vitorrian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 1999
    star 3
    I think it's hard to hang one's hat on Prima Publishing (or whichever licensee published this statement) attributing that Jerec has "power" rivaling Vader's. Thus, I disagree witn an above statement because it's NOT simple.

    That's only one "Jerec" authority - and in the bigger scheme of things - is it primary authority? Secondary authority? Controlling authority? Persuasive authority? What level of weight should it be given in light of several other sources?

    If several sources across several different licensees that contributed to the Shadows of the Empire Storyline state that Prince Xizor is the next most "powerful" sentient in the Known Galaxy behind Palpatine and Vader - should we all be up in arms and ask "what about Jerec"? Does the absence of "Jerec" in the Shadows "power" scheme mean anything? Should we be asking the "Shadows" licensees what the heck they meant by "power"?

    On a different note, hypothetically, would George Lucas agree with the conclusion that Jerec is more powerful than Vader? (i.e., Do you think GL would say Prima Publishing outranks his decisions in the greater scheme of things, (of course, that's assuming GL thinks Vader is more powerful than Jerec)?)

    If Zahn, Stackpole, Anderson, Moestra, Reeves, etc. all say GL can come along and change and/or trump the SWEU work they've done and all agree that that's OK because it's GL's universe - does that mean anything when considering "Jerec's" place in the power schemes of the SWEU?

    Was Vader a child at the time Jerec was more powerful? Was Vader dead at the time Jerec was considered more powerful? At what point in time was "Jerec" considered more powerful relative to Vader?

    In what aspect is Jerec considered more powerful - $$$? The Force - Dark Side, Light Side, Both? The Force - Living Force, Unifying Force, Both? Military might? Political influence? Loyal followers? The support of the Emperor? Being able to see with natural eyes, mechanical eyes, through the Force? A certain skill within the Force - illusion, speaking to animals, mechanical aptitude, battle meditation, levitation, etc.?

    In an age when there can be only two Sith Lords at any one time, would Palpatine agree that Jerec is more powerful than Vader?

    If Jerec is so powerful, would Palpatine entrust Jerec with collecting so many Jedi, and possibly Sith, artifacts? Wouldn't that be dangerous given how "powerful" Jerec is? Wouldn't that run the risk of Jerec potentially gaining "superior" power than the Emperor? What the heck is Palpatine thinking!!!???? Who is more loyal to the Emperor - Jerec or Vader?

    If "Jerec" is more powerful than Vader, why did the Emperor let "Jerec" live? Isn't his very existence a threat? Doesn't the Dark Forces storyline indicate that "Jerec" had his own ambitions for power?

    Anyways - my bottom line - I don't think the answer is so "simple" on this issue. I'm sure there are lots and lots of questions and issues that can be raised creating some doubts. Note howwever, that ultimately, GL is the controlling authority that can trump anybody else contributing to GL's universe.
  8. The Cat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2000
    star 3
    All of the Dark Jedi (including Sith) had their own ambitions. Greed and the Dark Side go hand in hand. Vader is not exempt from this, remember the catwalk scene in ESB? "Join me, and together we will rule the galaxy as father and son."

    As for the "power rivaling Vader's" line, consider this: Jerec is most powerful after Palpatine and Vader are off the galactic scene. Many sources indicate Palpatine kept his Force abilities tucked under his robes, so during the Empire, Vader was the most visible dasadar. Pre-Endor, everyone cowers from the Dark Lord of the Sith. Post-Endor, everyone cowers from the Dark Master of the Jedi.
  9. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    I think it's hard to hang one's hat on Prima Publishing (or whichever licensee published this statement) attributing that Jerec has "power" rivaling Vader's. Thus, I disagree witn an above statement because it's NOT simple.


    Courtesy of the most recently-promulgated statements concerning continuity, all published material is canon, Mademoiselle. Be it published by Prima Publishing, Del Rey, or Bantam---all such statements are equally valid.


    That's only one "Jerec" authority - and in the bigger scheme of things - is it primary authority? Secondary authority? Controlling authority? Persuasive authority? What level of weight should it be given in light of several other sources?


    What do you mean, Mademoiselle? 'tis canon, and therefore equally valid.

    If several sources across several different licensees that contributed to the Shadows of the Empire Storyline state that Prince Xizor is the next most "powerful" sentient in the Known Galaxy behind Palpatine and Vader - should we all be up in arms and ask "what about Jerec"? Does the absence of "Jerec" in the Shadows "power" scheme mean anything?


    Not at all, Mademoiselle, not at all. Master Jerec's known personality and Spartan tastes ensure that he has no stomach for the intrigues at which HH The Prince is considered so adept. Master Jerec is no intrigant, and does not concern himself with the affairs of the Privy Council. For, ultimately, that is all that HH The Prince rivals Lord Vader in---influence in the court of HIM The Emperor.

    Should we be asking the "Shadows" licensees what the heck they meant by "power"?


    The persons responsible for the production of Shadows of the Empire made it quite clear that HH The Prince rivalled Lord Vader in terms of political influence, not strength in the dark side of the Force.

    Compare that with the following statement concerning Master Jerec from the manual to Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II:

    His embrace of the force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.


    'tis an explicit and unambiguous statement, yes?

    On a different note, hypothetically, would George Lucas agree with the conclusion that Jerec is more powerful than Vader? (i.e., Do you think GL would say Prima Publishing outranks his decisions in the greater scheme of things, (of course, that's assuming GL thinks Vader is more powerful than Jerec)?)


    Jerec is not more powerful than Lord Vader, Mademoiselle, he rivals Lord Vader in terms of power in the dark side of the Force. There is a subtle---yet distinct---difference.

    Concerning the opinion M. Lucas might have on the matter, the answer is given already---the quote has been published in an official capacity, and has not been explicitly overturned by filmic evidence. It therefore bears the stamp of approval, so to speak, and is correct, true, and accurate.

    If Zahn, Stackpole, Anderson, Moestra, Reeves, etc. all say GL can come along and change and/or trump the SWEU work they've done and all agree that that's OK because it's GL's universe - does that mean anything when considering "Jerec's" place in the power schemes of the SWEU?


    Not at all, Mademoiselle. It does not change Master Jerec's place in the so-called power schemes in the slightest---because M. Lucas has not "trumped," if you will, the statement. It stands unless explicitly and irrevocably contradicted---and this has not happened.

    Was Vader a child at the time Jerec was more powerful? Was Vader dead at the time Jerec was considered more powerful? At what point in time was "Jerec" considered more powerful relative to Vader?


    Lord Vader had most probably died by the time that Master Jerec was so described; this does not, however, mean that the comparison is any less meaningful. Master Jerec is explicitly described as having powers that rival those of Lord Vader---living or dead.

    In what aspect is Je
  10. The Cat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2000
    star 3
    That is one long post.
  11. DarthSithLord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2001
    star 4
    No Jerca sucks after fighting him in DFII hes nothing.
  12. Cowboy_Jedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 2
    Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker would kick Jerec's @$$ easily any day of the week.

    Darth Vader isn't even in Jedi Knight at all and he is only a multiplayer character in Msysteries of the Sith, yet Darth Vader is on the cover of the box, along with Luke's lightsaber, it's all about marketing. I was 10 when I bought Jedi Knight and I thought I was about to go face off against Darth Vader as Luke Skywalker, but when I got home I was facing off against some blind "dark Jedi" named Jerec as some guy named Kyle Katarn. If it had been Jerec on the cover I wouldn't have bought it because I didn't know who he was back then, but I damn sure knew who Darth Vader was. EU is all about marketing, nothing more, nothing less.


    ~Cowboy
  13. Ana Vitorrian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 1999
    star 3
    I stand by my position that the "Jerec" rivaling Vader in power is NOT a simple issue.

    I would add my opinion that I do NOT believe it to be true.

    I also think that Wizards of the Coast's recent musings on Jerec in the Dark Side has persuavive value that "Jerec" is not as powerful as some opinions here hold.

    We're all entitled to our opinion, so to each his/her own.

    For III_Vir_RPC, I would also add that condescending rebuttals and/or responses are NEVER persuasive arguments to me. Note, I was raising issues. Many, but not all, of your responses I find to be conclusory statements and/or assumptions - that's not authority.

    When I approach analysis in any matter of literature, whether SW or Not SW, I always apply certain canons of interpretation - the first of which are always "plain language" and "intent of the author/writer." But those are not the only two - I also look at surrounding circumstances, weight of authority of the source, credibility, common sense, etc. etc.

    I would caution everyone, beware of "literal" "plain language" interpretations - because the analysis often doesn't end there.

    I have a favor to ask. I was hoping someone here would provide me a pinpoint page cite for the "Jerec's power rivaling Vader's." I didn't see it in the Prima Publishing Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Strategy Guide. I also didn't find anything under "Jerec" in the The Star Wars Encyclopdia OR the Guide to the SW Universe, 2nd OR 3rd editions. I haven't yet reviewed the Dark Horse Graphic Novels and/or audio dramas. So far, The Dark Side Sourcebook seems to be my best authority.

    Take care, and I'll try and chat later.

    Ana V
  14. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    For all those using sources that put Jerek or anyone else close to Vader in power... They were all written before Ep I came out and basically made Anakin the son of god in the SW universe. I doubt such things would have been written or would still be written.
  15. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    I belive that Volfe Karkko would be either equal in power next to Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker or next to him in power since he is no doubt hundreds of years old as an Anzati hes lived along life and is still young, he fought the 12 Jedi Masters on the Jedi Council and lost but barely and out of respect for him and his powers imprisoned him in a stasis field to think on what he did, having devoured the Soup of several other jedi knight's he is able to have their powers added on to his own thus making him a growing threat even to Darth Sidious.

    If he and Aayla escape they could join the Sith or destroy him and his plans.
  16. III_Vir_RPC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 1
    I stand by my position that the "Jerec" rivaling Vader in power is NOT a simple issue.

    I would add my opinion that I do NOT believe it to be true.


    Such is the privilege of intelligence---choice. Noöne expects you to change your opinion, Mademoiselle, but only to recognise that it is equally valid to believe the opposite.

    I also think that Wizards of the Coast's recent musings on Jerec in the Dark Side has persuavive value that "Jerec" is not as powerful as some opinions here hold.


    One may easily apply M. Cerasi?s ?foggy window? statement to game mechanics of Wizards of the Coast?s role-playing games, as they are designed to make the gaming environment enjoyable for players, not necessarily being an excruciatingly accurate representation of the powers and skills of the characters in relation to one another.
    Wherefore do you enclose Master Jerec?s names in quotations, Mademoiselle?

    For III_Vir_RPC, I would also add that condescending rebuttals and/or responses are NEVER persuasive arguments to me. Note, I was raising issues. Many, but not all, of your responses I find to be conclusory statements and/or assumptions - that's not authority.


    Mademoiselle, there was no condescension, nor authority, merely well-informed opinion. A Triumvir may only crave your forgiveness if you should have perceived the arguments differently.

    When I approach analysis in any matter of literature, whether SW or Not SW, I always apply certain canons of interpretation - the first of which are always "plain language" and "intent of the author/writer." But those are not the only two - I also look at surrounding circumstances, weight of authority of the source, credibility, common sense, etc. etc.


    Such is a well-advised method with which to analyse literature; you are most certainly to be commended, Mademoiselle.

    However, intent of the writer and literal language both indicate that Master Jerec has powers rivalling those of Lord Vader. Credibility? A simple, unambiguous statement by an omniscient third-person narrator. Weight of authority? Canon.

    I have a favor to ask. I was hoping someone here would provide me a pinpoint page cite for the "Jerec's power rivaling Vader's." I didn't see it in the Prima Publishing Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Strategy Guide. I also didn't find anything under "Jerec" in the The Star Wars Encyclopdia OR the Guide to the SW Universe, 2nd OR 3rd editions. I haven't yet reviewed the Dark Horse Graphic Novels and/or audio dramas. So far, The Dark Side Sourcebook seems to be my best authority.


    Nay, Mademoiselle, not the Strategy Guide, the manual---i.e., the document enclosed with the game itself.
  17. Ana Vitorrian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 1999
    star 3
    III_Vir_RPC,

    1. Thanks for the pinpoint source. I'll check it out.

    Right now, to me, as quoted by several individuals above, it still reads as an overbroad and vague statement - and it's fine with me for those who disagree. Maybe we've both said enough on that issue for now - I don't know - other than us two, does anybody else really care?

    2. Everybody else bear (sp?) with me for a second cuz I'm going off on a tangent (sp?), III_Vir_RPC, you previously asked me a question about "weight of authority" (I think I'm parraphrasing here).

    I'll give you an example where strict "canon" interpretations can be problematic - this one is strictly a "spelling" issue. So the parallels are not exactly on point, but for illustrative purposes, I hope it still makes sense.

    If you look up the character "Shada Dukal" in Steve Sansweet's Star Wars Enclyclopedia - you'll find it under the name "Shada Dakul," (or vice versa, I sometimes get myself confused on that one).

    Well, "Shada" is a Tim Zahn character. The source for her last name is in one of the Hand of Thrawn books. Since Zahn is the creator of that character - I "figure" Zahn's Hand of Thrawn novels are "Primary authority." Because Steve Sansweet and/or his people pulled that name from Zahn's work (as well as Shada's history from Zahn's overall work), I consider the Star Wars Encyclopedia "Secondary authority."

    Both the Hand of Thrawn novels and the Star Wars Encyclopedia are LFL licensed SW products. Both are "canon," right? Yet they're contradictory. So which has greater weight? (i.e., which is correct?) Or do they have equal weight? Are both right, (i.e, maybe Shada uses both spellings???)

    I'm "suggesting" that Zahn's work does have greater weight, (i.e., authority), than Sansweet's on the "Shada" last name - thus, with these two examples, I have my classifications of "Primary" and "Secondary" authority. Maybe that's a proper way to look at it. Maybe it isn't. Either way, my opinion would be to go with Zahn, and I suspect the Sansweet entry is "probably" a spelling error that got past continuity editing, (but who knows, right?).

    3. One last note, when thinking of the Sith "rule of two" - what is the rationale behind that rule? Does that rationale apply to Dark Jedi as well, (i.e., in our situation, would it make any difference whether these Imperial Jedi are "Sith" and/or "Dark Jedi.")? Is the "title" or "label" of "Sith" the only matter of significanse and thus, the analysis stop there, (i.e., if not a Sith, then not and never a threat?)? For example, and for SPECULATION purposes only, did Imperial Grand Inquisitor Torbin meet his fate "because of the rule of two" even though Torbin was not a "Sith." (i.e., Did Torbin grew "too powerful" for his own good?). Did High Inquisitor Tremayne "disappear" to avoid a similar fate? Does the Dark Side Sourcebook provide other "Jedi Hunters" who perhaps outlived their usefulness and also, perhaps, became threats to the Emperor's and Vader's rule? Just thoughts for speculation and flushing out.

    Thanks again for your help!!! If anything, I hope the above is at least interesting.
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