Why all our beliefs are false

First let's grant that we are products of evolution.

The we say that evolution promotes successful behavior. But, from this nothing follows about beliefs. Which means that if evolution is true, then there is no reason to think we have true beliefs.

But then someone replies:
"But true beliefs would promote successful behavior"

The problem is that the reply presupposes that behavior is the product or an effect of beleifs (so true beliefs would promote successful behavior), but beliefs could just be epiphenomena and not connected to behavior. Or behavior could cause belief, but not the other way around.

And even if beleifs cause behavior, there are patterns of false belief that could promote successful behavior. So, again, no reason to think that we have true beliefs about the world.

Another reply might be:
"If the argument is sound and our beliefs are false then the belief that our beliefs are false is false, so our beliefs are true."

But from the second reply, we get caught in the problem that now we believe that our beliefs are true, but I re-apply the argument again, and our beliefs are false.

 

I don't really think that beliefs are false, but just that there's several ways of interprating them to suit your needs.

 

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. My beliefs are based on my experiences and my observations. They're true until proven otherwise, or until I decide I believe something else.

 

But confidence that something is true doesn't make it true.

A person can have confidence that their wife loves them, but it turns out she cheating and backstabbing and doesn't really love them.

So just because you think something is true doesn't make it so.

Of course you can say,"it's true to me"

But what does that matter?
You're just saying that you believe falsely.

 

So just because you think something is true doesn't make it so.

Of course you can say,"it's true to me"

But what does that matter?
You're just saying that you believe falsely.

Our perceptions determine our reality, and we are all the center of our own little worlds. If you believe something is true, then it is true for you until something happens to change that belief. It may not be true for everyone -- but then, nothing is. There is no Truth, only truth. And that truth changes from person to person, sometimes from moment to moment. If I believe my wife loves me, then to me, it's the truth that she loves me -- until I might find out that she doesn't, in which case my beliefs change. And in any event, you are claiming not that "we are capable of believe falsehoods," but that "all our beliefs are false." Which is baloney.

 

My argument is that if evolution is true then it is likely that all our beliefs are false.

To your other point, it is the case that we are the center of our little worlds, but there is still a world outside what we think it is. And truth is based on correspondence with how things really are, not how we perceive them.

You seem to be claiming that we can never believe falsely. But that can't be right.

For example: there either is a God or there is not a God. This is something about how reality really is.
But since people disagree on whether there is or there is not a God, one of them has to be wrong. Truth is based outside of us, not on our perceptions.

 

My argument is that if evolution is true then it is likely that all our beliefs are false.

What if evolution is true, and we believe that evolution is true?

To your other point, it is the case that we are the center of our little worlds, but there is still a world outside what we think it is. And truth is based on correspondence with how things really are, not how we perceive them.

It is impossible to know how things "really are" -- only how we perceive them. How do you know that there's a world outside your mind? How do you know that you're not just a hallucination of some sort, an incorporeal, ethereal, ephemeral little dream? You don't. You just have to take it on faith, to believe that there is a bigger world that you're part of. And if you're going to believe that, then you have to believe your senses, trust in them, to tell you about that world. And thus all reality is based on our perceptions.

 

My argument is that if evolution is true then it is likely that all our beliefs are false.

How are belief and evolution mutually exclusive? I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but that has nothing to do with evolution, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

For example: there either is a God or there is not a God. This is something about how reality really is.
But since people disagree on whether there is or there is not a God, one of them has to be wrong. Truth is based outside of us, not on our perceptions.

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say those are the only two options. You would be right in stating that one is wrong. However, one is right. His belief is true.

Truth is based on our perceptions and arises from within us. The fact that the sun rises is true because I see it rise every day. But I am limited in understanding Truth (if it even exists) because I am limited in what I can take in with my senses.

 

You seem to be claiming that we can never believe falsely. But that can't be right.

That's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that it doesn't matter.

For example: there either is a God or there is not a God. This is something about how reality really is.
But since people disagree on whether there is or there is not a God, one of them has to be wrong. Truth is based outside of us, not on our perceptions.

Y'know it's hard to discuss truth/Truth when truth is all there is. By the time you assign truth that capital T, you're already wrong. See my above post for details.

Some people believe there's a God. Some don't. Some don't fall into either category. It cannot (or at least has not) been proven one way or the other. Maybe they're all wrong. Maybe, somehow, they're all right. It doesn't matter. Each of them is convinced that their beliefs are the way things are, and they cling to those beliefs. It doesn't matter whether those beliefs correspond with some universal Truth, because there's no such thing.

 

It doesn't matter whether those beliefs correspond with some universal Truth, because there's no such thing.

Does it really matter whether there is a universal Truth or not? Regardless of whether it exists, we are too limited to be capable of discovering it. We're limited beings who can't even understand what reality it, much less Truth.

For all I know, this could be a dream.

 

It is impossible to know how things "really are"

This is may be true, but it still doesn't take away from the claim that "if we believe truly or falsely, it is dependent on how the world actually is"

I think you're confusing how we come to have beliefs with whether those beliefs are true or false.

 

"For all I know, this could be a dream."

Yes, Flaming Sword, but it has to be my dream.

 

This is may be true, but it still doesn't take away from the claim that "if we believe truly or falsely, it is dependent on how the world actually is"

I think you're confusing how we come to have beliefs with whether those beliefs are true or false.

No. I'm saying our beliefs are the result of our perceptions and our experiences. And I'm saying that as far as anyone is concerned, his or her beliefs are true, and whether they're True doesn't matter one whit. If you believe something, then it is true to you. If I believe it's not true, then I may try to convince you of that. I might even succeed. That's the way people are. But all there is is truth. There is no absolutely-the-way-things-really-are Truth. And if there is, as FlamingSword points out, it doesn't matter, because it's beyond our human capacity to comprehend, so there might as well not be.

 

BLKLBL, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

This is may be true, but it still doesn't take away from the claim that "if we believe truly or falsely, it is dependent on how the world actually is"

But "how the world actually is" is really only our own perception. Now we seem to have collectively as a social group decided to believe something is true, so truth must be more than just inside yourself.

I think you're confusing how we come to have beliefs with whether those beliefs are true or false.

So how would you say we got beliefs? Are beliefs based on logic, emotion, and perception and used to explain things?

EDIT: Yes, Flaming Sword, but it has to be my dream.

It is your dream. You're the one who is experiencing it. Just like I am the one who is experiencing my dream.

 

Yes, Flaming Sword, but it has to be my dream.

No, it has to be my dream!

Really, this illustrates my point. For all any one of us knows, our whole life is just a dream and the rest of us are false, are simply elements of that dream. I simply have to trust that you and FlamingSword are both real, and that I'm not just imagining my discussion with you. I believe that you're real. My belief is true. If someone were to prove to me that it is all just a dream, then . . . well, I guess it would cease to be true.

 

I said: I think you're confusing how we come to have beliefs with whether those beliefs are true or false.

You said: No. I'm saying our beliefs are the result of our perceptions and our experiences.

Isn't that just saying where beliefs come from?

But again, though it may be difficult to justify beliefs, given our limited capacities, that just means that we cannot have knowledge (true justified belief), but it doesn't mean that our beliefs can't be false.

If everything is opinion, then certainly some opinions are true and some are false, despite the fact that all holders of opinions think their's are true.

But opinion is belief, and since opinions can be false, there are false beliefs.

 

If everything is opinion, then certainly some opinions are true and some are false, despite the fact that all holders of opinions think their's are true.

But that only holds true if there is an ultimate Truth. If I believe in God, then God exists for me. If he doesn't believe in God, then there is no God for him. As Mastage said, if you believe in something, then that something is true to you. The only way that either one is wrong is if there is an ultimate Truth about God's existence. And even if there is, does it matter? We can't comprehend it.

 

But again, though it may be difficult to justify beliefs, given our limited capacities, that just means that we cannot have knowledge (true justified belief), but it doesn't mean that our beliefs can't be false.

Beliefs don't require justification. They require belief.

If everything is opinion, then certainly some opinions are true and some are false, despite the fact that all holders of opinions think their's are true.

Do you even know what an opinion is? Opinions and beliefs are based on confidence, not fact. They require a judgment call. They are about what we think is, not about what is.

But opinion is belief, and since opinions can be false, there are false beliefs.

Opinions can't be false. As soon as you start talking about things that can be substantiated or insubstantiated, you're no longer talking about opinions.

 

Flaming Sword said: For all any one of us knows, our whole life is just a dream and the rest of us are false

This was Descartes' problem, but he solved it (if I remember right) by recognizing that he's not the only thing in existence, since if he was, he would know it. And he recognized that there are truths greater than him, truths he didn't have the power to make (like mathematics).

So, there is something outside of just our consciousness, for we are limited and have not always been.

Besides, if I was the only thing that existed, I would certainly give myself a nicer car.

But, I still insist, if it is a dream, it's mine.

 

I said: But opinion is belief, and since opinions can be false, there are false beliefs.

You said: Opinions can't be false. As soon as you start talking about things that can be substantiated or insubstantiated, you're no longer talking about opinions.

If I had an opinion that today is Jan. 1st 1677, wouldn't I have an opinion that was false? Even If I thought it was true, I'd still be wrong.

When things get substantiated then they become knowledge ( and so, as you said, it is no longer opinion), but that doesn't mean that we cannot opine what is not true about the world.

Further, you were saying that beliefs can't be substantiated, which is to say that 1. there is no knowledge (and I might agree to that) and 2. all is opinions.

But certainly, if all is opinions, some of those opinions are false, you just think they're true, but that just means you opine (believe) falsely.

I mean, don't you think I'm wrong?

 

I've got to go, but chew on this: What if you were just created one second ago? What if all your memories, all your beliefs, aren't really things that have happened, but were stuck into your head at the moment of your creation? Would that make the beliefs you hold *right now* any less valid, as far as you're concerned? Even if nothing's real, it's still all real *as far as you're concerned*, right?

 

No, what I think is not real for all I'm concerned.

I'm also concerned with how things really are, not just how I think they are. And though I may not ever have truth with a capital T, certainly I can move away from error. And that improvement is something that your argument denies yourself.



By the way, good talking to you, it was fun.

 

This was Descartes' problem, but he solved it (if I remember right) by recognizing that he's not the only thing in existence, since if he was, he would know it.

If, hypothetically, he created an elaborate enough system that clouded the fact that he was truly alone, at that point in his life he would not know it. But that doesn't mean at some point later he wouldn't learn that truth.

I'd imagine his soul knows more now though.

Perception is everything. The only thing you know is that you exist. Whether or not anything else exists...takes a bit of faith.

Grand ol' Designer

 

If all of our beliefs are false, then youre belief that our beliefs are false is also false, and by your belief that our beliefs is false being false that means my beliefs are not false, but are absolutley coorect.

That makes sense.

 

GD wrote: Perception is everything . . . Whether or not anything else exists...takes a bit of faith.

Perception imples that something is being perceived, so by saying that perception is everything seems to say that all our thoughts are due to our perception of an external world. I'll agree to that.

Also, I don't know if my belief that the world exists is based on faith. It can be based on reasoning. Given my apparent constant immersion in the world, the confirmed predictions about the world (like the glass will be on the table when I reopen my eyes), and other evidence; it seems that I can make an induction and say that the existence of the physical world is very probable.

JX wrote: If all of our beliefs are false, then youre belief that our beliefs are false is also false, and by your belief that our beliefs is false being false that means my beliefs are not false, but are absolutley coorect.

That's the problem with any skeptical position, the inconsistency is that it claims to know that there is no knowledge, as I claimed that I have a true belief that there are no true beliefs.

First, saying that something is false is not to imply that the contradiction is true, it only means there is something wrong with the first statement. So, my argument doesn't confirm that all beliefs are true, but that the belief that all beliefs are false is faulty.

Next, my argument, at it's core, does not say that all beliefs are false, it says that if you believe in evolution then within that system, you cannot make a claim that we have true beliefs, since evolution promotes successful behavior and not necessarily true belief.

The point of the argument is to say that there is something, apparently, wrong with believing in evolution since it has the inconsistency that you pointed out.