Discussion Why all the EU Hatred?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by JediMJS, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    YOu're assuming stories in "that universe" would continue. And if they do, the books themselves, which already happens.

    Unless Episode VII is an EU movie, it is going to change things. As soon as you need start "retconning" thing, espically things like Chewie being alive, Lukes love life and children, Han and Leai's children, the status of hte galaxy etc..... Its not connnected or consistent anymore. The new movies will already "destory" that.

    So you don't want constant retcons and reboots, but you want them to do that to the STar Wars EU

    The best way to go is to create a new, freash, clean continuity around what Episode VII does. That fixs just about all the issues you seem to have.
  2. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    I agree HH. The entire Empire wasn't stationed on Endor or in a half completed Death Star. 99% was spread throughout the galaxy. Sure two heads of the head of Hydra were cut off but there could be 5 heads remaining while the other two grow back.
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  3. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    I don't think I could have said it better my friend.
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  4. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    That is, basically, what did happen in the EU - it's called the Warlord era; but the Alliance's new government couldn't go storming in and massacre every dissenter without looking like the Empire - and that is no way to win the hearts and minds of the undecideds. Add to that the fact that loads of inter-planet/system rivalries/hatreds had been sternly repressed for twenty years and were now free to erupt into conflicts (ex-members of the Soviet Union, formerly kept peaceful towards their neighbours by threat of overwhelming force, now at daggers-drawn with, if not at the throats, of each other now there is no massive army to say no to venting their real or imagined grievances - ring any bells?) which would have to be dealt with.
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  5. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    For the record I'm not saying that the EU should be obliterated just because. If they can use some elements then GREAT! But don't be constrained by the EU and CHEWIE LIVES!!!!
  6. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    My friend, a series of communist governments in Europe collapsed around 1991, and they all fragmented and formed different governments. Russia is no longer communist like the former Soviet Union. Why is it so hard to see the Empire collapse overnight? That is why i absolutely hate those novels. they Completely ruin the happy ending of Return of the Jedi. And I don't give a damn if it's realistic or not OK?? Those stories make me want to sit down in a bench and cry in tears, as well as the rest of the EU set after ROTJ, since they completely ruin the state of happiness I felt when ROTJ ended. It was for me, the greatest ending to any movie in the history of movies. I just wanna give up and lay down and die.
    Last edited by Varguitas, Nov 22, 2012
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  7. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    As for the Empire, it depends.

    Remember that something that called itself the "Roman Empire" continued in Constantinople for a thousand years after the "Fall of Rome" in the late 5th century. By that time, it didn't speak the same language as the Romans, didn't have the same religion as the Romans, didn't have the same system of government as the Romans, didn't keep the same traditions as the Romans, and hadn't actually included Rome in its empire for centuries - but it was still the "Roman Empire".

    I could also see the idea - explored in the EU with the Fel Empire storyline - of the Empire slowly morphing into something far less evil and oppressive. The truth is that most governments - even the most oppressive ones ever - normally do, if they last long enough. The Soviet Union, for example, was evil until the day it finally collapsed, but the Soviet Union of the 70s and 80s under Brezhnev, while still oppressive, was nowhere near as oppressive as it had been under Stalin in the 1930s. Same with China today - still pretty oppressive, but nowhere near as much as it was under Mao in the 60s and 70s. Most governments, as they deal with the day-to-day problems of keeping a country running, tend to drift towards a moderate bureaucratic authoritarianism. Without a Sith Lord at its head, it would be only natural for the Empire to do the same.

    On the other side of things, a much less evil version of the Empire would mean far less of a moral need for the New Republic to fight against it. Keeping a monster like Palpatine from demonstrating his power by blowing planets to shreds is one thing, but spending trillions of credits and tearing the galaxy in half just to try to replace an essentially tough-but-fair autocrat like Jagged Fel with a democracy based solely on philosophical grounds seems like something that all but the most dedicated ideological diehards would conclude is way more trouble than it's worth.

    But what do I know?
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Nov 22, 2012
  8. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    I completely agree my friend.
  9. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    You may be overreacting a bit.
    If you read my post carefully, I say that there is often not a single event that collapses an Empire overnight. Not that it never happens, just that it is quite common for them to take quite a while to fall.
    The rest of your post is a subjective opinion on what makes you happy and what you consider good, which is fair - but subjective opinions of taste are not really open to discussion and everyone is entitled to his own.
  10. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    Yes, but remember that the other half of the Roman Empire collapsed, and a series of medieval and small kingdoms rose. Italy was divided into a bunch of small city-states, and everything sort of changed.
  11. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    Even when speaking of the western Roman Empire the term "collapse" is somewhat inaccurate. It did cease to exist but because of a series of events spanning a long time, not as a result of a single battle.

    A good example of complete military annihilation is the defeat of Nazi Germany in Second World War.
  12. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    True enough. I certainly don't think that things would ever be the same after Endor.

    Ironically, it's entirely possible that for all that the galaxy went through in the couple of decades leading up to Endor, it could simply end up back where it was the day before the beginning of Revenge of the Sith - with the galaxy divided into two governments, one more democratic and one more autocratic, each of which controls roughly half the galaxy, and neither having a decisive military advantage over the other. If so, Palpatine need never have bothered.

    Then again, that would be in keeping with the prophecy. Remember, Anakin's fate was to destroy the Sith, not to destroy the Empire.

    Even more darkly, he was to bring balance to the Force. What is "balance", exactly? At the beginning of Episode I, the Sith had been (presumably) extinct, and peace and democracy had reigned in the galaxy, for a thousand years. That may be great, but is that "balance"? An imbalance towards the light is still an imbalance. Read the fine print, and be careful what you wish for - "balance" may not actually be something that makes you very happy.
  13. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe. But we don't actually know how "complete" a victory Endor was.

    Actually, let me clarify that. We do know how complete of a victory it was over the Sith. That was indeed a "complete annihilation", which was in accordance with the prophecy. At the end of RoTJ, the Sith Order is extinct. Prophecy fulfilled; roll credits.

    How much of a complete victory it was over the Empire, however, is a different question.
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  14. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    Uh, that's pretty much what I've been saying all along :p
    The victory at Endor was a heavy blow but it most certainly did not result in complete and utter overnight collapse of a galaxy spanning Empire and all of it's infrastructure, resources and military might.
  15. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Regardless of which universe continues, the rules are thrown out the window and anything goes.

    If they can throw out previous universes, what's stopping them from throwing out one after another?

    I'm not following you here, I think there's been a misunderstanding, so I'll just state my thoughts.

    If the ST disregards EU, I am done with Star Wars EU. Completely.

    I'm on a break from EU right now, but if the ST stays reasonably consistent with the current EU I might get back into it.

    No, a new, fresh, clean continuity would not fix anything, it's exactly what I don't want. I want the current EU to remain intact. I have no interest in starting over completely.

    I already know what happens after ROTJ, I'm not interested in them telling me "No, that didn't happen, here's what really happened, which by the way, is subject to change whenever we feel like it."
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Nov 22, 2012
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  16. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Chances are we are looking around 50 ABY for EP 7, do you propose all galactic conflict be put on pause during the unseen period (granted the superweapon/moff of the week, and galactic war of the series gets tiresome.) If there is a 50 year history running and Disney picks up to show Hamill and co as Luke and co... Why not?

    Introduce a new protagonist... follow their story
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  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We know from Lucas that balance in the Force does indeed correspond to the "happy ending" of ROTJ. The balance of the Force is a balance between the sides of the Force, not a Jedi/Sith stalemate. As such the period during which the Sith were thought to be extinct was not an imbalance toward the light. Also, the belief that the Sith were extinct is contradicted by the fact that they were not really extinct. So-called "peace" is not the domination of the light; rather, it is the absence of domination by major evil.
  18. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    Exactly, I agree with what you said. That is a major problem with Episode VII, in which who is going to be the bad guy? Anakin destroyed the Sith, so I guess it will have to be another practicioner of the dark side of the force. Perhaps a Nightsister, or something.
  19. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    First, not to whip out my New Criticism too much on you, but I just don't buy the idea that too much light isn't an imbalance. The films still say what they say, no matter what Lucas might have said in interviews given years after they were released. The nature of the Force is that it has a light side and a dark side. Thus, a natural "balance" in the Force requires them both to be present. If people aligned towards the light have been running things for too long, that's an imbalance towards the light.

    Also, we don't know how "happy" the ending of RoTJ really was in relation to the Republic vs. the Empire. We'll all find out on opening day of Episode VII, I guess.

    I know the Sith weren't really extinct. That's why I included that "(presumably)".

    I'm totally willing to buy the idea that the Sith Order was destroyed forever at the end of RoTJ. But not the idea that the dark side is gone, or won't have practitioners. The only way to destroy the dark side would be to destroy the Force itself.
  20. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Can't be a nightsister those are from the EU... ;)
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  21. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    And TCW, Kyris -- so I understand. :(
  22. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Balance would mean the side were equal. Luke was the only Jedi, meaning there was only one darksider left.
  23. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I personally think that the 'balance' being referenced is the achievement of a more balanced philosophy for the new Jedi Order after the Sith's destruction... Luke has repeatedly shown in the films to be a good person despite having grave issues in the eyes of the Old Order... attachments to family, friends, emotions get the better of him, and so forth. The dogma of the Old Order would have largely been swept away with the purge anyway... and as for the attachment rule: Luke repeatedly ignores Yoda's and Ben's advice when it comes to attachments.

    In RoTJ
    Luke: "I can't do it Ben. I can't kill my own father."
    Obi-wan: "Then the Emperor has already won."

    In ESB
    Yoda: "You must not go."
    Luke: "But Han and Leia could die if I don't."

    Luke has attachments, he's actually a balanced person despite these things and so forth... A position that fits with most of the EU stories (ironically).

    Now... back to the main purpose of this thread. There is a section of the Star Wars fanbase that is rather heavily invested in the idea that George Lucas alone is Star Wars. There is a similar segment in the Star Trek fanbase that is rather heavily invested in the 'vision' of Gene Roddenberry. Both examples tend to viciously attack anything that is antagonistic with their positions... in Star Wars that's the EU. In Star Trek that's Deep Space Nine (Which I personally think is the best of the Star Trek series).

    Now, there is also a segment that is completely devoted to the idea that all of the EU is canon and is totally unwilling to compromise on that position. Hence, flames.
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  24. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    The true Lord of the Sith will emerge in ST.

    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]
  25. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I would personally LOVE if Lucas or someone at Lucasfilm tore through the EU and canonized parts of the EU and decanonized/(left the rest as it is) parts leading up to Ep VII. Rogue squadron series, Jedi Academy series, Jedi Outcast, I, Jedi , Thrawn series, Hand of Thrawn, Courtship of Princess Leia... CANON! Let them pick what they like... After all we need some history between 6 and 7
    Jedi_Lover likes this.
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