Discussion Why all the EU Hatred?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by JediMJS, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    By that logic Frankenstein and Young Frankenstein are the same movie. And frankly, I don't really care what a given individual's position on the PT or the OT is - my point is simply that there were six movies, someone can like all of them or some of them and still call themselves a fan. They were apparently interested enough to register on the message board for a fan news site. The "NO TRUE SCOTSMAN" argument that gets bandied about whenever someone dislikes something inside a fandom niche is intellectually lazy and does nothing to make your position look stronger.
    Last edited by Ramza, Nov 1, 2012
  2. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
    It's not necessarily about disliking. It's just about not giving a crap, feeling that Star Wars belongs in a visual medium, knowing that Lucas doesn't give a crap, knowing that screenwriters aren't going to kowtow to fans of supp. material, and finding it slightly absurd that we're still talking about it.

    Look, I feel your pain. I'm a DC comics fan. :oops: But I feel like there's a meteor heading to Earth. And everyone knows it's going to crash and destroy the continent populated by EU fans. But instead of getting on a plane and coming over to the non-EU continent, EU fans are standing outside yelling at the sky.

    edit: and yes, I'm basically responding to a previous point, not your movie point. ;)
    Last edited by LawJedi, Nov 1, 2012
  3. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Well, no. By that logic, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and "ABCDEFG" are the same song.

    But forgive me for encouraging people to like things more than they will currently allow themselves to.:D
  4. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Here's the thing about EU material: in a world where only the Original Trilogy existed you can reasonably claim that the films were better than anything the EU could ever produce. After the Prequel Trilogy that simply was no longer true. While EU material varies wildly in quality, there are immense quantities of it that are superior to either The Phanthom Menace (by any measure a bad film ouright) or Attack of the Clones (a bland and at best mediocre mid-story vehicle) and even a considerable quantity that are obviously superior to Revenge of the Sith (which is a good but not great piece of space opera).

    Any number of personal stances regarding how the EU fits into your individual vision of Star Wars are certainly possible, but irrespective of that the position has been dictacted, by Lucasfilm, of a mostly seemless single continuity across media for decades. Disney can of course do what they want, but competing with the EU would be foolish, because that means setting up the new movies to be compared against it. This problem has occured with The Clone Wars animated series, as certain fans compare it agaisnt other EU clone wars material in places where they conflict and find it wanting - in a movie context it would be magnified by orders of magnitude. It would be unwise to set up two Star Wars timelines that function directly in opposition to each other. That's like taking the Han Shot First contreversy and spreading it across every single frame.

    There is no need to do that. Just as there was a gap in the EU timeline allowing for the Prequel trilogy, there are several possible gap points that allow for a sequel trilogy and need not reference any existing material.

    I think your analogy is flawed. What the potential devestation of the EU is most closely similar to is product turnover in an RPG system. New movies may officially invlidate EU material, they are also certain to render it unsupported by further effort in such a case, but they cannot make it go away.

    When Wizards of the Coast shifted editions of Dungeons & Dragons (which they've done twice and are ramping up to a third time) they didn't nuke the old systems or rules, they simply turned off the support and potential advanced the game setting timelines. It always remained possible to keep playing with the old rules, and people could and would do so. This creates an added burden of not simply making a new product, but a superior one. One of the reasons EU fans are so concerned is that the last time we went through this that test was failed, the new product was inferior.
    Last edited by Mechalich, Nov 2, 2012
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  5. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Ahh, well. I see. Bulldozing the existing EU cannon outright seems rude to me, but fans SHOULD know how to become flexible by now. I mean, Splinter of the Mind's Eye was sort of "ruined" by The Empire Strikes Back, but it still stands up on its own. And it seems to me that it would be very convenient for some broke, lazy people such as myself to ditch the idea of the EU in favor of shiney new movies.
  6. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    star 7
    Hey, we're just encouraging you to like a new idea more than you're currently allowing yourself to.
    Last edited by Ramza, Nov 2, 2012
  7. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Oh, that TPM was "bad"? I've thought that before. That opinion "sucked".:p
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  8. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    star 7
    So say these new films bulldoze the EU - I take it they, too, will not be bad?
  9. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Hmmm... it will have to take major departures from the 1-6 Saga films' formula for me to dislike these movies. I mean, consistency has been the name of the game with Star Wars movies. The EU? I like the EU for what it is, but it usually doesn't follow the same formula.

    But, basically, yeah. I like being satisfied. Even if it makes EU "wrong".
  10. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    So then you're a "broke, lazy person willing to ditch the EU"? For shame.
    Last edited by Ramza, Nov 2, 2012
  11. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    No. I'm a broke, lazy person willing to read an EU that is "wrong". See? I'm flexible.
  12. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
  13. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Oh, in that case, never mind.[face_not_talking]
  14. Dr Harleen Quinzel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    That was pretty much it for me too, when they kept going further in the future. I hate the New Jedi Order, but I did give them a chance. I do still read books and comics that took place before, and during the Original Trilogy.
  15. DM99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2012
    star 3
    EU is better fanfic, dude. Nothing good enough for the big screen. Mara Jade, a RED haired babe in the GFFA on the cinema screen? This is Star Wars, not Harry Potter.
  16. Othalan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2010
    As long as the ST doesn't retcon Thrawn out of existence, I'm happy. Honestly, I'm looking forward to seeing what post-Lucas Star Wars looks like after the mess he made of the PT. After all, the Original Trilogy was great, and that was likely less than half Lucas, with guys like Irv Kershner, Richard Marquand, Gary Kurtz and Lawrence Kasdan filtering out and re-writing the most abjectly stupid ideas GL came up with.

    My one real worry is that Disney will decide that all the attention to their association with the SW franchise will necessitate some level of bowdlerization to preserve their squeaky-clean image. After the CGI-series-that-shall-not-be-named, I don't think I can take anymore of that. They've pretty much left Marvel and Touchstone alone since they acquired them, so there is hope, but again, Disney's association with those brands isn't quite so well-known.



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  17. Vespasian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    I think the problem with the current state of the EU (or at least the post-ROTJ stuff) for most of us is that it's really hard to access.

    When I was reading a few Star Wars books (like the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-wing Series, or Tales...) or played some of the games, you could just join in. Now it seems that I'd have to battle through a lot, I mean a lot of novels and comics. So that's really a deterrent. The only novel I read since was Vector Prime and I didn't really like it.

    I'm sure there's quality there, and Episode VII doesn't have to blow the EU into smithereens (I hope Thrawn is kept), but casual fans like me would be a bit taken aback by the incorporation of too much EU. And yes, Episode IV began in media res, so I don't think it'd be too much of a handicap... still, I prefer not adapting the EU.
  18. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    They just seemed like bad sci fi novels....tried to like them but .you know ANH characters had names like Luke Ben leia.....sci fi writers seem to need to invent crazy anmes with Z and Y thrown in for fun....just never felt real
  19. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
    I'm not saying it will go away. I'm just saying that it will lack relevance in any further discussion about the franchise.
  20. yodasbum Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2004
    star 2
    I think that some people do dislike some bits, huge parts or the entirety of the EU, I certainly dislike a lot of it. I loved the first two book series of trilogies Thrawn and Jedi Order. I loved Shadows Of The Empire. I even have a huge soft spot for The Courtship Of Princess Liea. But I didn't like a lot of what came afterwards and drifted away from it. I think that Star Wars fans have a polarized view of the EU. Some want it as canon and some want it scratched from history. I think both absolute views smack of being a Sith.

    George has never considered his own continuity as canon so I don't expect Lucasfilm to extend the view that EU is Canon. However, it is clear that those saying that the EU wont be considered is wide of the mark. Lucas did incorporate Courscant (the name not the concept) and Kyle Klatan from the EU into the films.

    I would hope that the best of the EU is merged with Georges treatments. I don't expect the Thrawn trilogy to be made but would like noghri, Wookie claws, ysalamari, Mara Jade, Thrawn and the twins included. Even Anakin Solo and Ben Skywalker although the names verge on the conceited for me and I never bought that Liea would name her child after the father that tortured her and that she never had a parental relationship with. I also think Cade Skywalker and lots of the EU Sith are excellent.

    I have no problem with the EU having a separate continuity to the central saga of films. It gives me the best of both worlds.
    Last edited by yodasbum, Nov 2, 2012
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  21. Darth_Darkmoon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I read a few of the EU novels, not all because at some point it became... cumbersome. I enjoyed most of the novels, especially those that were similar to the OT with the Empire still playing a part.
    But I think that the new movies should not depend on the EU. The EU has become so big that it would be a burden to incorporate at least the important things that happened and then explain them in the movie somehow - assumed the new movie will feature the original cast.
    The EU can continue alongside the movies as some kind of "parallel universe".
  22. Moorplant Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2004
    I don't hate the EU, there's large swathes of it I completely ignore in my "personal head cannon" but I'm glad it exists and I feel for those fans who are really attached to it now.

    That said I'm bemused by the idea that the new trilogy should either adapt one or more of the book series' and/or twist itself so it fits in the gaps between "established canon". 1) Unlike LOTR/Harry Potter/Twilight or a even Marvel movies SW has always been about the big movies 1st and foremost with everything else distant 2nd or 3rd. So if they have a great idea for the future of a GFFA that involves flattening most of the post ROTJ EU into AU then so be it. I think it's especially likely to happen as Disney hopes to keep putting out movies and other projects post the theoretical Ep IX some of which might explore different time periods to whenever the ST ends up being set.

    2) There's so much of it post ROTJ because no one really thought sequels would happen, or not for 30 more years. It's so dense that even if they really, really wanted to keep it and set the movies 500 years in the future or squeeze it into the gap between LOTF, they're going to trample on something, even if they try and keep it as intact as possible and retcon the hell out of everything. TCW caused enough fuss I don't see how new movies don't do likewise on a massive scale.
  23. johnrain39 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2012
    star 1
    Corran Horn, Kam Sulusar, Kyp Durron, are all uninteresting.
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  24. Qui_Za_Miokl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Personally the books are what made me a Star Wars fanatic. Books can get you more into a story than a movie can. The movies caught my attention, but I would not have the passion for Star Wars if a never picked up a book. The Revenge of the Sith movie cannot even touch the novel. I realize that some of the stuff in the eu is not good, but overall I do not think Star Wars would not be what is has become without the eu.
    Last edited by Qui_Za_Miokl, Nov 2, 2012
  25. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    I hear this kind of sentiment time and again, and it never ceases to amaze me at the conceit of it.

    Do the numbers. Taking a look at the sales of any/all of the SW novels (either Bantam or Del Rey era) and also for the comics, and working with a base assumption that every person that has made a purchase would be of the stance that to contradict any part of the EU would be a massive slap in the face, that portion would make up only 1% of the total number of people that would go see a Star Wars film in a cinema.

    Add in the fact that you don't go into making a movie just to retain an existing audience, you go to also attract more. So therefore use of an elaborate and intricate backstory built over the course of more than 400 published products is a giant backwards step. Compare and contrast Serenity and Avengers (especially given the same person was behind the helm and writing of both). Serenity relied too heavily on the existing backstory of Firefly in the telling of its story without enough of a touchstone for those relationships to be presented in the movie itself. The Avengers on the other hand draws not only from 6 existing movies in the franchise, but also 70 years of comic history, and all the pieces are still presented in some fashion in the movie to give a cohesive whole, while also a richer story if you know all the base material (and please note, I am not saying that this is the reason for the difference in box office of the two movies, there are more factors at play than this).

    Yes, The Clone Wars has now managed to walk all over certain parts of the existing EU (despite the mental and story contortionistics of some people that would make a Chinese acrobat look like a piece of steel girder in comparison). And outside of the fairly closed-in world of online fandom, has it made any difference or impact? Nope, still rates well and picking up audience numbers.

    At the end of the day, most people just don't care. They either don't know about the EU, and therefore don't care if it's contradicted. They know about the EU; don't care about it in the first place and thus are not fussed when it is contradicted. Or they know about the EU, and their enjoyment of such is not diminished by what occurs in the movies.





    Oh, and for full disclosure, here is my personal feelings towards the EU. I am a Star Wars fan because of the books. If there had never been another Star Wars movie, I would still be as big a fan as I am today, and would still have gone to multiple SW Celebrations (although I concede the fact that there wouldn't have been any without the PT). I used to work for this site as part of the EU staff. But I'm also a realist and am not going to write rants just because after 35 years and hundreds of people involved in expanding a simple set of movies out into a wider world that there won't be this one big over-arching and intricately connected story with not a single contradiction. My enjoyment was derived from immersing in the world created by the author in each novel, and that's what keeps me coming back.
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