Discussion Why all the EU Hatred?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by JediMJS, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. EUdiscoverer1136 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 1
    I may very well stop. I do work hard for it, and if he ( or rather, The Mouse) doesn't appreciate it, I'm sure my Wife will, a lot more, lol!

    And .. the fact that you have a different opinion than I isn't what's insulting me. It's one of the things this board is about.
    What I take as offensive or insulting is the tendency to respond to certain parts of comments, but conveniently ignoring others. Did you not read my comment about pretense?
    What? I was supposed to GUESS that Lucas was lying about all the stories being part of one big timeline? Whe I bought the product I bought it under THAT pretense.
    THAT is why I compare it to the act of stealing.
    The fact that I chose to believe something which events have led me to believe was a lie, (more accurately that he chose to change his mind, at total disregard toward his fans) ..doesn't change the outcome.
    Look, I love the guy, and I love what he created.. but I think the constant retconning because of the "creative changes and licence" become a little stale after a while. I've heard people echoing my feelings of being made to feel like we're being duped a little, but I haven't really heard much in the way of a retort that ADDRESES this point.
    So can I hear one? Huh? Huh? Can I? Please? Lol!

    But, hey.. we agree to disagree.. fine. But it also doesn't change that fact that many fans feel the same. And money DOES talk.. especially in THIS economy!
    Last edited by EUdiscoverer1136, Nov 27, 2012
    tsunami1138 likes this.
  2. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I've considered the EU that I've read to be a pleasant diversion, but I've never taken it seriously as part of SW canon. When AOTC contradicted the ROTJ novel's assertion that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother, it didn't bother me. When ROTJ contradicted a comic book's claim that Ki-Adi-Mundi (I think it was him anyway) was on the Jedi Council before being made a Master, it didn't bother me. Those are only two examples of many where the movies have steamrolled over the EU already. The movies have always told the only story that mattered to me in the long run; any EU I spend my time and money on is only a means to get my fix of Star Wars without watching the movies for the seven millionth time, and nothing more. I do feel sorry for those who are so invested in the veracity of the EU stories that they feel cheated when the movies don't comply with them, but this is nothing new and there have always been things that couldn't just be retconned away. I guess it's just strange to me what people will and won't allow themselves to overlook in stories that are all fictional anyway, and that they could suddenly be unable to enjoy something just because something else doesn't fall in line with the continuity of it.
    Artoo-Dion and Varguitas like this.
  3. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    It's not clear if Lucas told them to do it or if he merely approved it. Did you completely ignore what I showed you simply because some people believe it for fact?
  4. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    No, I'm ignoring it because nobody seriously uses wookiepedia for facts. I've explained why.
  5. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    It might not be, but I read the interview with Veitch, and in no part does it say that George Lucas suggested the idea. That's why It's reliable.
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    lol. So, a quote, that anyone can edit, says something? Wow. Your research is amazing.

    Edit: And you're also deliberately misquoting:

    http://www.jazmaonline.com/interviews/interviews2007.asp?intID=432

    Tom Veitch: I loved that George Lucas gave us "carte blanche" to think up new ideas and stories. The first idea we gave him (this was back in 1989, you understand) was that the Empire had preserved Vader's costume or a duplicate of it, and that they would put somebody else inside it, so that "Darth Vader" could continue to inspire fear and obedience among the far-flung worlds of the Galaxy. George said "no" to that. Our second idea was that the Emperor should continue to live, through the process of cloning. George said "yes" to that.

    George approved. ;)
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Nov 27, 2012
  7. Varguitas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 1
    Yes my friend, he approved it, but in no part does it say that he suggested the idea. It was the other way around. And anyway I was going to show that part of the interview. You simply did it before I could do it.
    Last edited by Varguitas, Nov 27, 2012
  8. EUdiscoverer1136 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 1
    Yes, but we're not just talking about a few innacuracies or a few retcons anymore..We're talking about some books, or entire storylines based on each other.. being entirely wiped out comepletely.
    I actually liked the occasional retcons! One of the wonderful things (to my mind) about the EU is that someone would eventually come around and write a story to correct whatever continuity errors would pop up from time to time.
    But this.. this is something different altogether (IF it happens. Please note that I understand that all of this is speculation!!)
  9. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    But what's really the difference when it comes down to it? Where do you draw the line, and why is it easier to accept small inconsistencies than large ones?

    On another note, I'd be interested in knowing how those examples I mentioned were retconned.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Nov 27, 2012
  10. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    Unless I'm mistaken, nobody from LFL has explicitly said "New films will never contradict the EU material"; indeed, they've always been explicit in the other direction. "Official continuity" just means that the books agree with each other and are licensed by LFL. Again, the idea that "it's all one big story" is the sizzle, and it's always been illusory.

    The novels are the SW equivalent of Disney straight-to-video sequels: cheaply-made product meant to cash-in on the success of the original features. Art and commerce go hand-in-hand with these franchises, but it's commerce that dominates the tie-in media market.
  11. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I can certainly acknowledge the fact that this is a constant in the real world; the conflict comes from the fact that this has (until last month) all been centered around and created by a man who has consistently, in word and action, declared his opposition to the corporate consumer culture. He has damned it in his soft-spoken but nonetheless iron-willed voice for thirty years; he has openly and publicly supported political candidates who themselves are, if not opposed to it, at least convinced that the corporate consumer culture is in need of quite significant reform, a reorientation toward the customer and away from the product. And yet this man resided at the center of a massive corporation that he founded by his choice, and actively and exponentially expanded at the expense of other activities; and this corporation, as any must, has to make decisions based on the needs of the situation, not necessarily the stated leanings of even its founder.

    This basic business survival behavior spoke to a deep-rooted and deeply-complicated contradiction within Lucas himself - which he himself has openly admitted to - and which, last month, he finally and definitively resolved on terms that allowed him to maintain claim on himself as a person, with his ideals ultimately intact, and still provide a future for the people that had long worked for him and had been his responsibility. But none of us knew these sort of deeper issues at the time, because we were simply too young to understand this kind of contradictory behavior: we treated him more on terms with, say, Walt Disney himself in his lifetime; he was "Uncle George," in a sense, and when individuals speaking for him said things, such as that the books were part of a single grand tapestry that the films were simply the centerpoints of, of course we took that to heart - and while we're all mature enough here to not let this truly prevent us from functioning in any significant way, and while I myself will be happy to admit that the EU has suffered from some real bad decisions that now make the erasure of significant parts of it a more attractive option for me, I think it's entirely justified for the people who took the concept of the grand tapestry to heart to then say "Wait, what?" when they then execute an about-face and say that it was not so, and isn't so.
  12. EUdiscoverer1136 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 1
    Um.. small ones can be reconciled.
    Let's put it this way. One story arc is spread over several books.
    Later, someone writes another arc based on the previous (Featuring the same characters of littered with reference points to the previous arc) but takes place many many years in the future).
    If a movie takes place in the same space of timeline as the first story arc, rendering it completely irrelevent in the timeline, then the secon arc would be wiped out too, since it is based on a story that never happened.
    Again, we understand that this is fiction. But it's fiction that we have invested in, and care about deeply, and are now being told (if, indeed this is the case) that it doesn't matter at all.
    As to the ROTJ novelization, I don't really pay much attention to the novel, since any additions are speculation on the authors part. THOSE I can accept being contradicted, as I consider the movie definitive anyway. For the most part, my argument is based on the original stories.
    As to the Ki-Adi-Mundi statement, it's been so long since I read it, I don't remember.
    But, again.. it's an adaption, not really a story, and I may be wrong here... but wasn't Mundi invented way after ROTJ?
  13. EUdiscoverer1136 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 1
    You and I have two totally different mindsets on how and why to care about a fictional saga, so ..that's cool.. have fun with that, man! Peace!
  14. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    You have not been lied to. The stories were indeed all part of one big timeline. Nothing you bought states that it would remain so indefinitely.
  15. EUdiscoverer1136 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 1
    Oh.
    Ok, then.
    Well... thanks.
  16. EHT Manager: New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 5
    I don't hate the EU per se, but I don't really like it either. I honestly sometimes wish some of it hadn't been approved to see the light of day, but if other SW fans enjoy it, so be it. The main problem is just that the majority of the EU storylines that I've read or heard about just sound so silly... and that a lot of it is not particularly well written either, IMO. The novels that I've actually read are Labyrinth of Evil, Revenge of the Sith, Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, the novelizations of the OT, and part of Darth Plagueis. Some of those were decent or pretty good, but none enough to make me keep going (especially given that my impression is that those may be more to my liking than most of the rest of the novels). I watched the TV CW microseries and sometimes watch TCW, if those count as EU. I haven't read any comics and barely played any video games.
  17. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    IIRC, the Mundi thing was in a Star Wars comic that was released between Episodes I and II. Not an adaptation, just part of a continuing EU story in the comic book format.
  18. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
    Fixed that for you.
  19. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    The Mundi comic was the only tie-in comic to TPM, just before it came out.
    Ki-Adi was married to a number of women. Then it turned out Jedi were celibate...

    The comic was put together with the specific purpose of bringing the EU material and the movies closer together, but LFL couldn't be bothered to keep the most eyecatching aspect of the comic straight.
  20. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    That's rather a small sample, if I can say so without giving you offense, (particularly as Revenge of the Sith is, IIRC, itself a novelisation). I would recommend trying Stackpole's Rogue Squadron, Wedge's Gamble, The Krytos Trap and The Bacta War; then Allston's continuation of the X-Wing series; Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist and Solo Command. Plenty of dogfighting action (as in ANH) plus some humour. After those, try Zahn's Thrawn (or Empire) Trilogy - Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command followed by Isard's Revenge. Stackpole's "I, Jedi" and Zahn's Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future duology plus
    his Survivors' Quest are the pick of the remaining Bantam titles (IMHO).
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Nov 27, 2012
  21. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    It wasn't in the tie-in comic either (or if it was then I didn't see that one). It was a "Star Wars" comic... before it split into the "Republic" and "Empire" comics.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Nov 27, 2012
  22. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Ki-Adi was an exception to the rule on purpose. His species has birth problems and few males. So, he had an exception. I'm fairly sure this was in the initial text.
    CT-867-5309 and Pro Scoundrel like this.
  23. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I thought I remembered the Ki-Adi Mundi story explaining that Jedi don't usually marry, but that he was allowed due to the specifics of his species. Something to that effect, at least.
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, but not even Max Clifford could spin it as anything other than a crappy move Watto:

    1. OK, I've done my set of movies, I'll give the go-ahead to a continuation.
    2. 10 years later: I'm going to do some prequels and they'll clash with my own earlier work, but hey artists are inconsistent! Deal with it!
    3. 20 years later: Say, those continuations I gave the go-ahead to all that time back? Never said they were going to last forever, I want to do the proper version - MY WAY!

    If ever there was a case of just because you can doesn't mean you should, this'd be a damn good candidate. But not to worry, if things go as I expect, I'm sure a whole lot of us who actually gave a damn will cease to and that'll be far better, won't it?

    My own against the odds theory says there is no way the Mouse is going to throw away a viable income stream, regardless of relative size, therefore a creative blinder of a move may well be in the works.
  25. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4

    I think it was actually Lucas himself, giving an interview round about the time when AOTC was released, who said Jedi aren’t celibate. They’re just not allowed to form attachments or get married. So they’re allowed fun, but without all the hassle. Sounds like a good life, actually. [face_laugh]
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