PT Why all the hate for Phantom Menace?

I personally think all 6 episodes are great in general

 

I think in hindsight TPM isnt that bad, but upon first viewing it came across very poorly which pretty much damaged its reputation forever. I actually liked much of the plot and thought Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor were both really good. The introduction to life before the Empire was fine as well. But often its thats first impression that makes or breaks something and the rough acting for Anakin Skywalker, the Jar Jar Binks character running wild, the pretty weak villians other than Darth Maul, the pod race, some of the very kid friendly overtones, etc...were all things that gave most people a shock and immediatey turned them off to the movie. I think if they had cut alot of it out people would have been more receptive to the movie especially since it probably hd the best actors of the three,,

 

tying this into the sequels, i was just flipping through the channels and chris hayes on msnbc was showing the new trailer. he stopped on the crashed star destroyer and said that was cooler than anything in the last 3 movies (because it's not like there was a star destroyer in Revenge of the Sith right?) and then went on to say there is a scope in the new movie that the prequels didn't have.

where's the facepalm emoji?

 

I think most of its hate comes down to its childish humor and Jar Jar. Beyond those two things, I find TPM as fine a SW movie as any other.

 

Agreed..
Scenes with Jar Jar are still painful to watch for me, but other than that, I like this Episode more and more with every re-watch...

 

Thanks to AOTC, I have started to become a die hard Star Wars fan back in 2002.. So in my guess, Lucas must have done something right

 

Why all the hate for Jar Jar? He was like, the embodiment of karma and fate.

 

I like jar jar personally

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As do I.

He serves a very singular purpose, mythologically and thematically, and one of my few frustrations with the Saga as a whole is that it feels like his role was unjustly truncated in AotC and RotS because of negative perceptions concerning him, which is just sad.

 

I'm going to be upfront with my bias here--I like the OT and, for the most part, dislike the PT. My initial reaction to TPM when it was released was extreme disappointment.

In hindsight, the movie fascinates me. While I still don't watch it often or appreciate it on the same level as my favorite Star Wars movie, I have a good deal of respect for what Lucas was attempting with it, and today, it's my favorite of the prequels.

Here you have two central characters who are Jedi--not a ragtag team of adventurers--taking part in a story that even they don't understand. In fact, the whole movie juggles a tone of carefree adventure and dark political machinations. There's really not a single character we can relate to--no Luke Skywalker and little of 3PO and R2 to guide us through this strange world.

The movie's like a sustained cantina sequence, taking us through a series of odd (and beautiful) sights and sounds and setting up a universe that looks both familiar and different. And while TPM is mostly "clean" compared to the "used" OT, I can't get over how real many of the locations, Naboo and Coruscant in particular, feel.

I also love much of the action and scenery, from the Gungan city, to pretty much all of Naboo, to the Podracing, to Coruscant, to the well-choreographed duel between Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Maul.

The Empire Strikes Back took the seeds sown in Star Wars and allowed them to grow in a direction few could have anticipated, altering the course of the entire series. Likewise, TPM was a gamble--instead of a simple rehash of what worked in the originals, it was unfamiliar, jarring, a bit creepy, and also ambitious and adventurous.

That's all in hindsight. When I THINK about what the movie REPRESENTS, I want to love it.

In practice, it's always been really difficult for me to watch. The story still doesn't make much sense to me (I don't go to books for explanations--I'm mostly just a fan of the Star Wars movies), I don't really like any of the characters, and the movie is brutally slow. Furthermore, while I like how the action looks, the fact that I don't feel any human connection to this world or these characters makes what should be exciting scenes rote and cumbersome. There's little real sense of danger to any of it. Also (and this changes in the two sequels), the actors rarely betray much feeling. I can't recall any main character expressing concern, love, or anything of the sort--just a lot of monotone exchanges about complex lore and politics.

I haven't seen the movie in a long time, so I could be remembering some of these things incorrectly, but it's telling that nothing really stuck with me.

While the original Star Wars was approachable, well-paced, and drew us into its world with relatable characters and a familiar story, I can't help but feel that The Phantom Menace, however honorable its intentions, is incredibly alienating. The chief problem I've always had with it is my lack of emotional connection and, as a result, my lack of care about any of the events in the movie. I generally hear complaints like: the world is sterile, the characters are bland, the story makes no sense. However true any of this is, it echoes my feelings while watching the movie.

Is that fair? Obviously, The Phantom Menace resonated with some people. Speaking for myself, it didn't really give me anything I look for in a movie, nor did it change the way I think about movies. The result was an experience that fell entirely flat for me.

 

As odd as this may be, the lack of an over-arching galactic conflict is the only thing that really feels "off" about TPM for me.

 

I was 18 years old when "Phantom Menace" hit theaters, and I remember being very uncertain with how I'd react. When that opening crawl came up though, I was thrilled...and while I've grown a little more critical now, I still enjoy the film as a whole. Replacing Yoda with a CG version vastly improved it on the Blu-Ray; the puppet from '99 looked too far removed from his appearance in "Empire".

In my experience, there's three areas most "haters" like to whine about, regarding the film - Anakin being a kid, too much CGI, and Jar Jar Binks. They accuse Lucas of catering to younger audiences, when that's only partially true. Yes, the marketing was very "child-centered", but that's been the norm for most fantasy films in general. As a story, "Phantom Menace" was lighter in places, and I found that appropriate...because its set in the days just before the Dark Times, when many lived in peace and prosperity. The brightness and innocence in the story reflect a pre-war mentality, largely devoid of worries outside individual circumstance. That serves as a necessary contrast to the confusion and terror presented later on.

Now, about Jar Jar...I like the character. If you think that makes me foolish, so be it; I simply don't care. He was funny in a similar manner to Threepio, causing chaos while trying to help everybody. Not once did the thought ever cross my mind, about him being seen as racist; heck, I didn't even know who Ahmed Best was until after the film came out. Even now, seeing people write whole articles about "racist Gungans" and such makes me want to throw up.

Finally, about the effects - Lucas used practical models and sets for most of "Phantom Menace". The main CGI sequences were the Tatooine podrace, Noobian dogfight, and victory celebration near the end. Its nowhere near as prevalent as "Attack of the Clones" or "Revenge of the Sith".

 

For the most part I love TPM. Qui-Gon is my favorite Jedi ever, and his scenes with Obi-Wan and the Council are great. How people don't hold his stuff as some of the best in the series I don't know. He brings a complexity to the series that it just never had. There's a lot of good stuff and is even more reminiscent of Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress than any of the OT films. That's a good thing. However, TPM has two MAJOR problems, and they're unfortunately fairly critical.

#1 - Anakin
Not even so much Jake Lloyd's performance, which is at times touching and grounded, and at other times really flat and weird. That aside, Lucas' approach to Anakin writing-wise was WAY off if you're trying to create an emotion connection with the audience and draw them into his plight.

The kid's a slave? Yeah right. He lives a fairly good life in a nice little pad with his mom who presumably chills all day doing arts and crafts, and preparing for her day job as a kindergarten teacher. But seriously, Anakin's life should have been harder. It would have gone a long way to making him someone we can relate to and feel for if Watto had him working hard in a junk heap with little food, water and/or sleep. This would probably mean he'd have to be a tad older, but that's fine by me. To create tension you need to create obstacles. We feel for Luke in ANH because the obstacle of his stubborn uncle and the coming harvest season.

I think when people even now talk about their dislike of the film, even when they're using scapegoats like "it's all CGI!" and "the political scenes are like watching C-SPAN", they're really missing what their movie-watcher consciousness is bothered by: Anakin's situation just has no tension.

#2 - Nabooicide
I love the plot to TPM. When people complain about the Taxation part of it I really don't understand why. Yes, the plots in 4-6 were about easy to understand war-time catalysts, I get that. But that doesn't mean a Star Wars movie can't be about something less straightforward. The taxation blockade of Naboo was a necessary mirage so that the Trade Federation could make blockading Naboo look to the senate like something more of a mundane and routine reaction to a trade dispute - all in the interests of covering up their true intentions to take out the Queen and destabilize the infrastructure. It's logical that they would attempt to hide their true intentions and I have no problem with it at all up to that point. What I do have a problem with is that when Amidala goes to Coruscant to plead her case, and Sio Bibble sends her the message detailing how terrible things have gotten on Naboo - we aren't SHOWN any of it. Again, no tension. One of the cardinal rules of popular, main stream cinema story telling broken right there in telling and no showing.

I love Portman's scenes with Palpatine and the Senate. Imo, they crackle with intrigue and I love the way Lucas shot them. Padme's desperation, Palpatine's relish at seeing his scheme come together, all great. Mixed together, it all creates a few scenes that are some of the best in the film. But they're undercut by the lack of having any kind of visceral reaction to what Padme is trying to convince the senate of.


I think that's why the film made so much money, and yet so many people gave it terrible reviews - it's so close to being great, and in fits and starts it is very great, and a refreshing difference from the OT, but there are some additional screenplay drafts types of issues that really hurt it. Unfortunately, the average fan isn't eloquent enough and doesn't care enough to have a nuanced take on these films so their response is 'it sucks'.

 

I will defend this film until I am in the grave. Yes, Jar Jar is a bit much to take....but honestly, this film feels the closest (in my opinion, anyway) to the originals. Obviously there are many who will disagree with that statement. Personally, I rank the film above AOTC.

 

I enjoyed reading this post. I wanted to say, however, that we did get to see the Trade Federation's takeover of Naboo towards the beginning of the film and the subjugation of its people. I feel we didn't need to cover much more ground on that aspect. Yes, show don't tell is a good rule, but we already got a good glimpse of what was going on to infer for ourselves that it was getting worse. I mean, the TF craft blockading the entire planet to the German invasion of France-esque imagery in the Droid Army's ground takeover of the planet was enough to sell me on that particular aspect of the film.

 

I don't hate it, but I never watched it repeatedly like the rest. Easily my least favorite SW movie.

I liked some things about it, like Maul, but it was just too childish, and that didn't mix well with the other tones of the movie. You can't put Freddie Kreuger and Daffy Duck in the same movie.

 

You have some interesting thoughts there.

Thanks for sharing them.

Opinions you're fully entitled to. I would diverge quite a bit at this point, though.

For instance, you say you can't recall any real show of concern or affection, but there are some very tender moments on Tatooine between mother and son, between Qui-Gon and Shmi, and then a little later on the queen's ship between Anakin and Padme. These latter two show more affection for each other on Coruscant. Jar Jar also bonds warmly with Padme when they're heading to Tatooine and again with her in her queen guise on Coruscant. Indeed, it's that tentative connection between Jar Jar and Padme that more or less secures the final act of the movie -- a rather poignant statement on bonding, trust, and companionship. Some warm moments also occur on Naboo between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan; and Anakin shows his affection for Padme, even when they're separated, by deigning to rescue her after her security team is pinned down by droidekas.

I will say a little more about the core relationship in this movie. I really like the way that Lucas conveys the connection between Anakin and Shmi. There is a philosophical dimension to their relationship that goes beyond maternal protection. Like when Anakin repeats back a supposed mantra of his mother's: "Mom, you say the biggest problem in this universe is nobody helps each other." Or his mother's words at the sweet, sad moment of their inevitable (and as it will turn out: portentous) parting: "What does your heart tell you?" For the kid that's going to be one day become Darth Vader (or is slightly "becoming" Darth Vader every day), that's really interesting.

It's true, though, that there is a sort of monotone quality to a lot of TPM's dialogue-driven exchanges. More warmth and mirth tends to manifest in the music, or in certain expressions that the actors make, or in some of the more lively, vigorous exchanges between, say, Qui-Gon and Watto; who are otherwise deceiving each other.

I like the monotone, though. It can be taken and felt to be a little bit insipid, but I almost see it as having a spiritual dimension. Artsy, at least. The Star Wars galaxy feels a bit more like an alien landscape, due to the stolid (I hesitate to say "simple-minded") direction. I mean, there's a certain opacity at work. Weird little tensions are created all the time.

And while you claim there's no danger involved, the story here is meant to be a little more (superficially) innocent and romantic; quasi-utopic. The main plotline (Machiavellian takeover) is very dark; and there are a number of regrettable social circumstances (like slavery) which inform quite a lot of the film's visuals, characterization, and themes.

I think TPM is something to get lost in. It's a fun, colourful movie, with a strangely principled, dour quality at times. I quite like the strange dynamic.

Well, I don't think it falls flat, personally. But it is rather controlled and austere in a way -- and so I can understand its online reception.

I find it very lively in a visual sense; and a beautiful intro to the Star Wars galaxy. But some fans just can't rub along with it. And that's fine, too.

 

how do you not like qui-gon jinn? he's one of the best characters in the saga.

 

He put me to sleep...

 

Quiet your mind
And it will soon be gone
Especially if you add gin

 

You just turned Qui-Gon into a pedophile in a matter of seconds.

 

I pretty much just pretend the prequels don't exist... That said - I think the Phantom Menace is a pretty good film! I love Darth Maul and the Pod Race is really cool. It's just that Jar Jar and the whole gungan storyline is impossible to ignore.

 

where is your mind?

 

The special editions were an event. Star Wars was back. I enjoyed seeing them at the cinema. I had actually never seen the original at the cinema, (ESB was my first SW cinema experience back when it came out). But the special editions really started the hype going for the new movies.

Points not to be dismissed though. However there are some great effects in TPM and even though I don't like Jar Jar as a character, I thought his integration in to the film was very good.

 

I remember when those first hit; I was 16 at the time, and had grown up with the OT on VHS. I saw the "Episode IV" SE at a local multiplex, and was truly blown away. I still love Han stepping on Jabba's tail, though it was done much better in the Blu-Ray release.