Lit Why all the LOTF hate?

I'm having a hard time believing that the water in Kenobi wasn't being unintentionally spiced with, say, the Star Wars equivalent of vodka.

Keep this up and that'll be a bannable offense.



On-topic, finished

the other day. Magnificent read, and more-or-less spot on to my recollection, barring some hyperbole here and there.

Not looking forward to re-reading Revelation once I finish re-reading DNT and move on to LotF.

 

Why are you doing this to yourself?

 

I think that Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda are having the same conversation Luke is having with Jaina. It's too blatant for Troy Denning to have not been deliberately trying to invoke it. Contrary to what people think, he's actually a very good writer--it's just he can get very protective of "his" interpretations of things.

He's also a HUGE Jedi and antihero fan. Which sort of makes him "quirky" to other writers.

(He'd be ideal to write Kyle Katarn in his prime).

I think neither Obi Wan or Yoda knew the future regarding Anakin Skywalker--even though Obi Wan is a glowing spirit. As a result, they both knew Luke Skywalker was the only one capable of defeating Lord Vader and hesitation on his part would probably get him killed. After all, Anakin was willing to kill Padme and Obi Wan Kenobi--the two people he loved him most. They have no reason to believe he's going to hold back when faced with a son raised away from him.

They don't grok what Luke Skywalker has picked up on, which is that Anakin's treatment of Luke isn't just the love of a father for a son but also the love of Anakin for all of his lost potential, his wife, and his friends. Luke represents a second chance for him and all of those feelings he's suppressed come bubbling forth with 20 years of regrets.

Obi Wan and Yoda know Luke defeating Vader is a step to defeating Palpatine. It also is necessary for Luke to become a Jedi Knight.

However, they don't WANT Vader dead so much as see it as necessary.

Which, again, is how Luke feels about Caedus. It's also out of character for Luke because the Jedi Grandmaster is boundless in his love for his surrogate son/apprentice.

 

Because I'm of a mind to catalogue as I go each and every case of revisionist history on the parts of Denning, Traviss, Allston, and Golden with regards to the NJO, and then take all of that and put it up in a thread over several posts as a resource for others to refer to when needed.

NO. FULL STOP. DO NOT PASS GO. PROCEED DIRECTLY TO JAIL.

No author is qualified to write Kyle unless they can give a play-by-play from the Mission to Danuta all the way to the climactic face-off with Jerec on Ruusan.

 

In my head, Luke gets knocked out and Kyle is the one having the conversation with Jaina.

"You've got to kill him!"
"But there's good in him!"
"Stuff it, who cares!"
"But--"
"WE'RE HARD JEDI! MAKING HARD CHOICES! Right Jan?"
*Jan files her fingernails*
"Meh."

 

I don't want Ulicus to destroy me for derailing the thread discussing Denning's deficiencies as a writer -- nor do I feel comfortable talking about my opinions about such outside of discussing any particular piece of his work. I think he could be a good writer though!

When I last re-read the NJO a few years ago, I found it rather informative (perhaps more so) with regard to cataloging revisionist history, because the more recent stuff is fresher in my mind, so when I come across Luke discussing his reasoning behind setting up the Advisory council as six Jedi and six officials in the Galactic Alliance, or Luke surrendering his guardianship of the Jedi way on Ithor, or when I read the character of Jacen Solo in the NJO, I don't need to re-read what followed to know that it deliberately ignored all that.

 

Among the many dumb things in Revelation, Mara's ghost not being able to talk is even dumber in light of her appearance in the Legacy comics (and that wasn't a hallucination ).

That sounds really interesting, I might have to add him to my (eventual) reading list.

 

Mara was a reverse Qui-Gon as a ghost.

 

You're right, if Denning was the guy who was supporting the Jedi, I'd probably be against it too. I could do a bloody better job of writing the New Jedi Order as they're supposed to be. It may come off a little bit too much like KJA and not quite enough like Stover and Luceno, but even KJA did a better job with the Jedi that what Denning did to them. At the very least, I'd write them a) without blasters, b) not corrupt like Denning's, and c) able to hold a karking conversation without arguing over it like spoiled karking children!

You're right. The Jedi in Denning's books are more commando than Jedi. It makes you wonder if he even watched the PT or ROTJ–and then, when you realize he had to have in order to write the R2-hologram scenes in the DNT, it makes you realize he totally missed the bloody point. Now, I don't have a problem with, say–Kyle Katarn or Jaden Korr, having blasters. Because they did in their video games. But when Corran, Kenth Hamner, Kam Solusar, and even Ben are using blasters, then you've got a problem; you're not writing Jedi, you're writing X-Men meets G.I.Joe. I don't especially mind the Jedi flying StealthX's, because the old Jedi had their starfighters, but when they use them in military strikes rather than rescue missions (that's the one good thing about that scene in Vortex; it was a rescue launch for Luke and Ben, not a commando strike), then, once again, you're not writing Jedi.

 

This happens a lot, see: Vergere, Jacen, the NJO, the film saga, Mortis.

 

The more I think about it, the more sad I get. Because really–this had the potential to be a good series. The first two books, Exile, Fury, and most of Sacrifice (sans Mara's death) were good. But there's so much bad thanks to these being a continuation of Denning's DNT, which were where badness started, that this is really an average series. Denning is the wrong person to write any book where the main character is supposed to be both a Jedi and good, because when he does they end up as either elitist jerks or commandos with superpowers. Now, if Denning wanted to write a Dark Jedi–i.e. Adalric Cessius Brandl, Alema Rar, or TOR-era Revan–fine, I think he'd do a good job with it; he did okay with Alema, but I blame that on Alema, not Denning (though Denning did create Alema in the first place). But in the future (and I thank the stars they're getting so many new authors like Lebbon, Wells, and the rest), keep him away from any good Jedi. Leave them to JJM, Stover, and Luceno.

 

In all seriousness I think Alema was one of the best written characters between DNT and LOTF. I think writing her was Denning's best contribution. Unlike a lot of others acting out of character or just acting plain stupid, I felt her character went through major changes that made perfect sense and added some nice elements to each story.

 

Seconded. This development pleasantly surprised me.

 

I didn't mind her but sometimes she just got a little ridiculous. By the end of Exile, her missing her target with her blowgun and hitting an innocent bystander was practically a running gag.

 

But she killed the World Brain -- something which was said would destroy Coruscant in the NJO -- and thus conveniently erased another part of the NJO in Tempest!

 

...are we talking about Had Abbadon, Imperial Center, or Yuuzhan'tar?

 

Eh, she was always aiming at high profile targets though, targets who specifically couldn't be allowed to die. And the darts from her blowgun were later used by Jacen to kill Mara...which could've been handled so much better.

 

I think the Legacy of the Force's issues are manifold, more or less dealing with the fact the authors didn't have a really firm friendship and there was no major overview to iron out the details between them. It was three very different authors with three very different styles who needed someone to reign them in. More than that, though, there was a serious problem with the story on a conceptual level.

Here's, Charlemagne19's Top Thirteen Reasons Why LOTF was a misfire.

1. The Return of the Sith is underwhelming: The Return of the Sith was a big selling point for the story. Forget the idea Vader was supposed to destroy the Sith in ROTJ. People want to see the Darksiders vs. Lightsiders and I was purchasing LOTF in part because of this. Unfortunately, frankly, Jacen Solo never really meditated on being a Sith. We got no real insights into them, their culture, or the Dark Side of the Force. It was just Jacen Solo deciding to be evil and then proceeding to menace the galaxy.

2. Jacen Solo as the villain is questionable: The Dark Nest trilogy was foreshadowing Jacen Solo's fall but we never really got a concrete reason for this. Jacen Solo was a pretty popular character and all of the "evidence" building up to his corruption and death was controversial. Vergere, after all, was a popular character and her retcon into being a Sith makes no sense. After all, what sort of Sith sacrifices themselves for another? Hell, there's TWO Sith who did that.

3. Jacen's motivations remain nebulous: Jacen Solo wants to bring peace and order to the galaxy. This would make sense...if the galaxy wasn't already peaceful. Yes, there's a flair-up between the Corellians and the central government but it seems fairly small time. If he was going to convert to the Dark Side, surely it'd be when the Yuuzhan Vong were ravaging the universe. All of this seems fairly small potatos by comparison.

4. A certain lack of panache: Star Wars is a very visual medium and the return of the Sith, Jacen Solo's personal army, and the Dark Side should have been extremely cool. Instead, we never get really a sense Jacen is anything but Jacen in a cape. Likewise, the GAG aren't terribly threatening. One reason Legacy developed the fandom was, flaws aside, they gave us visual details which made things impressive. Jacen Solo doesn't really become a major threat to the galaxy until he burns Kashyyk, either, which is confusing.

5. Lumiya feels more like the real villain: Jacen Solo, bluntly, can't carry the series. Lumiya may not have been a major threat since Marvel comics but she was written with intelligence, charisma, and a certain amount of Dark Side knowledge. Her death at the hands of Luke Skywalker midway through the series left people feeling rudderless since Jacen Solo's lack of concrete goals or plans meant we were lacking a guiding force in our villain.

6. No-Selling Luke's Dark Journey: Another point, Lumiya murdering Mara inspiring Luke to kill her doesn't strike me as character assassination. HOWEVER, it is the lowest point in the entire history of Luke's career. At least with Dark Empire, we have the Emperor's mind-tricks to blame. The story would have worked much better with Luke coming within INCHES of killing her only for him to stop and arrest her--only for Lumiya THEN to commit suicide by jumping into lava or something similar.

Later, it's hard to believe Luke, Han, and Leia all agree to murder Caedus.

7. The surprisingly unemotional Solo Family: It stuns me but the fact we don't get a Leia vs. Caedus scene or Han Solo Gunsliinger vs. Sith Lord fight seems like a massively wasted opportunity. If you're going to have a close member of the Solo family corrupted to the Dark Side, it seems like this should be a story about their reactions to it. Instead, the Solo-Skywalker clan doesn't NOTICE Jacen's corrupted for half the series.

8. The perfunctory Second Galactic Civil War: Does anyone actually know what worlds are independent of the Republic? Did they rejoin the Republic? How did they LOSE the war when Jacen Solo had all of his forces eradicted outright? We never actually saw the government of the "enemy" in action or met with their Genralissmo. It's a plot point no one saw to develop despite being the entire reason Jacen Solo fell to the Dark Side.

9. Ben Skywalker, Secret Agent: I don't have a problem with Star Wars Kid Appeal Factor. Ken Palpatine, Ahsoka, and so on are all part of the setting. It gets BIZARRE, however, with Ben Skywalker as a member of the Jacen Youth. Luke and Mara come off as horrible parents. It's one thing for Ben to be a Jedi Knight. It's another to have him join the Department of Homeland Security when the administration is talking openly about their love of torture. The corruption of Ben gets reversed as rapidly as Jacen Solo's corruption doesn't. It's almost as if he got the Revan mindwipe of that period.

10. The Rampant Stupidity of Characters: Jacen Solo is made absolute ruler of the galaxy. Why? Because. A lot of characters are driven crazy or removed of their IQs to set this up. I especially like Cal Omas, Suicide Bomber.

WTH.

11. Inconsistent Characterization: Is Jacen Solo insane, a devious mastermind, or see-sawing on the Dark Side? It depends on which part of the story you're reading at the time. Is Luke Skywalker a lovable farmboy or Batman? Is Luke Skywalker the greatest Sith killer the galaxy ever known or inferior to Boba Fett? Is Ben a lovable kid or verging on the Dark Side budding psychopath?

Even Jacen Solo's power level goes up and down. Is he a threat to Luke Skywalker or not?

12. Dropped Plot Elements: The Antilles Family, Mandalorians, and the aforementioned Civil War. A certain level of consistency amongst what's important would have made the book much better. It doesn't help that the books foreshadowing is all over the place too. The tassles, Jacen's visions of his mother killing him, the fact Jacen has to kill his own daughter to become a Sith Lord, and so on.

13. The Unsatisfactory Ending: Jacen Solo dies and the war just....ends.

 

You're right, the series is unsatisfactory at best. But who's to blame?



This guy!

 

You're putting it all on one person? Rather short-sighted, don't you think?

 

You're right.

Dear Del Rey...

 

Well...it was his idea to turn Jacen to the dark side. And we've established it wasn't Allston's fault, and Traviss just flat-out disagreed with Denning, so...yeah. It might have been editors and whatnot too, but it was Denning's idea, so he has to shoulder the blame for...this.

 

If it stays off-topic.... Then yes.

But it won't. These things never do.

 

I actually think Troy Denning's part of the story hangs together the best and would have worked fine if he'd been allowed to write a trilogy or quadrilogy on his own. Call it the "Darth Caedus Cycle" or something.

Jacen Solo is fascinated by the Tassles, Jacen Solo is a genius at the Dark Side, and Jacen Solo still has good within him but he's obsessed with his daughter. It's an interesting take on the character and would have been interesting--even if I disagreed with it, if it had been left alone without other people going in different directions.

Then again, if Troy Denning had artistic freedom, Anakin would have returned from the dead too.

 

I blame everyone involved. Aaron Allston, Karen Traviss, Troy Denning, Sue Rostoni, Shelly Shapiro, and whoever else was involved with the story or editing or decision-making.