Lit Why all the LOTF hate?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Considering he never should have died in the first place...

    Nah, I won't go there. I just wish post-NJO had been better, is all.
    aleja2 likes this.
  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Sniper,

    Your latest post makes the case for two things very well:

    1. That you should be banned from ever looking at a thesaurus again.

    2. That in 10 years time someone will find that and other similar posts of yours, remind you of them and you'll just look at them and go: What the hell was I thinking?

    Your post would far better reflect your abilities and read far, far better with the snark, the snide intellectualism, the malice and general disdain for this forum you seem to have decided to develop removed entirely.
  3. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Traviss is guilty of far more than simply disagreeing with Denning.
    aleja2 likes this.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    What did we know about who disagreeing with what?
  5. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Oh, and if (when talking Star Wars) Traviss disagrees with you, I'm more likely to view you in the right than not. Just on principle.
  6. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Then you're letting your views on some of her works mar your opinion of her as a person. "Oh she disagrees with Denning, so Denning must be right!" In what world is a Luke Skywalker that uses a sniper rifle to watch a couple Sith Lords "right"?
    Force Smuggler and Mia Mesharad like this.
  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Well he should have macrobinoculars but Luke knows how to use weapons as he WAS an alliance soldier.
  8. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    In what world is an author that claims they want to garrote fans, and has a disdain for the franchise for which they write (she pretty much scoffed at the idea of reading the books) right? She did far more bad than good. So to claim the other author (who has bad moments as well, admittedly), is the only issue to speak of is, again, incredibly shortsighted.
    And read the line right before what you quoted.
    "more likely to view"
    That doesn't mean it's with 100% certainty. Quite the contrary.
  9. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    When did she say she wanted to garrote fans? Could it have been humor? Maybe Traviss just has a dark sense of humor. As to scoffing at reading the other books–no, she didn't scoff at it, she just said (honestly) that she didn't read them. But I believe she also said she didn't read the books in the other franchises she wrote for (like Halo) either. "More harm than good" is a personal opinion. I happen to quite like every single one of her Republic Commando books. Maybe Denning isn't the only problem, but he certainly made his fair share of goofs, and Traviss disagreeing with him certainly isn't a bad thing.

    True. But he hasn't been a soldier for 40-odd years. That should've fallen out of use, being a Jedi.
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  10. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    It was very much not humor. She also described those that disagreed with her as "talifans."
  11. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, that is very extreme, but I think if people were as critical of me as some are of Traviss...I'd be pretty karking peeved, too. I wouldn't call them "talifans" or say I'd garrote 'em, but I'd be pretty peeved too. She writes good books, but because they slam Jedi–TRAVISS SUCKS!
    Mia Mesharad and darth fluffy like this.
  12. aleja2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 1

    It is never a good idea to disagree with readers in a public space. Never. Only makes the author look unprofessional, defensive and a crybaby drama llama.

    Yes, criticism can hurt and sting. But authors should cry on their partners' shoulders, write long nasty letters that are torn up and never sent, have bitchfests with their editors and agents about teh stoopid, gather their best writer friends around and have bonfires of the most hurtful criticism - and never respond in public (even email is a bad idea).

    In Traviss's case, she proudly proclaims that she doesn't read fiction, period. Has a whole manifesto about it on her website and defends why is she is right. (BTW, Karen, it DOES show that you can't/won't read. Badly.)

    People put an emphasis on writers needing to read because that's how writers learn and improve. Dramatic structure really does exist. The concept of a character arcs really does exist. The more (well-written) books you read, the better your innate understanding and ability to impart those structures in your own work. FIlms are not books; comics are not books. There is a specific art to each, and Traviss misses the the storytelling nuances that come with choosing a novel as a platform, as opposed to choosing a film or a comic to tell the story. For example, Traviss's characters all sound the same because they are basically Traviss - a military/police type who has been taught via journalism to write and speak in short, simple, declarative sentences.

    And, y'know, Traviss's prose isn't terrible. Short sentences create the impression of action, and speed the reader through the story. Simple sentences make her writing easily accessible and digestible. I can see how some enjoy reading her prose. And Traviss herself is self-aware enough to call herself more of a reporter than a writer.

    But as a storyteller, capable of creating three-dimensional characters who each have their own voice and own persona, and whose choices are motivated by who they are instead of by what the plot requires to get to the author's end goal: she fails miserably. 'Nuff said. My jaw is still on the ground that anyone at Del Rey and Lucas thought it was a good idea to hire her for a connected nine-books series featuring characters with a deep history, especially considering her stated dislike for being constrained by others' continuity ("I'm not really interested in exploring anyone else's fully-fleshed out universe. I need the latitude to explore it on my own terms")

    I'm happy that Jennifer Heddle is at Lucas now, however. It's too late for the post RotJ-EU as we know it - it's been Del Rey-dumbed-down and Denning-destroyed - but my fingers are crossed that whatever springs up to replace it will have much more care and attention paid to it.
    Last edited by aleja2, Sep 10, 2013
  13. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    :rolleyes: Are you being willfully ignorant at this point?
  14. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 4
    what is a talifan?
  15. HWK-290 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2013
    star 2
    A childish derogatory label applied to fans who'd like some consistency with regards to, say for example, the total number of clone troopers minted.
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  16. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    There *WAS* consistency. Traviss maintained there were only a million troopers like Shatterpoint and other sources.

    Fans didn't like it, so they insulted her.

    On THAT, I stand with Traviss.
    GrandMasterKatarn and Robimus like this.
  18. HWK-290 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2013
    star 2
    Perhaps "consistency" is the wrong word. "Realism", maybe. I wasn't here at the time, but the impression I got afterwards was that she listed some absurdly low count for a galactic conflict.
    Last edited by HWK-290, Sep 10, 2013
  19. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I figured out that LFL is just as much to blame for the clone numbers as Traviss ever was, because three million is roughly the size of the ten Systems Armies and 10,000-man Special Operations Brigade, without counting replacements numbering at least five million over the course of the war. Such a small GAR makes the droid numbers in the quadrillions and quintillions that have been stated in the past to be ridiculously high, which led to Traviss coming up with the hundreds of millions number.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Traviss was basically a company girl. Lucasfilm told her that it was one million clones and she attempted to defend it in her writing. Fans were outraged for the obvious reason that 1,000,000 clones and 8,000 Jedi does not a army make--Grand or otherwise. The numbers neither originated with her, however, nor did they matter in the end because Lucas changes things at whim.

    It was neither her responsibility nor her position to change the official policy. Yet, the internet was filled with PAGES of vitrol over the fictional number of soldiers in a nonexistent conflict. If I were her, I'd have gotten ticked off too.

    It's like the old Saxon debate about the Executor-size had included posts about how people who said otherwise were a moron.
    Robimus likes this.
  21. Cynical_Ben Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    So, through this discussion, I think we've reached the crux of the issue as to why so many people dislike the LotF series: two of the three authors brought on to the series have divisive and distinctive styles and perspectives on the Star Wars. Even without going into the quality or continuity issues or characterization problems or anything else, putting Troy Denning and Karen Traviss into the same series was a powderkeg situation.

    Really, even if the series were good, there would still be people here who hate it, simply because they dislike Denning, or Traviss, or both. The fact that the series is flawed only exacerbates that. That's why people hate LotF: because it has a bad plot stacked on top of bad decisions from an editorial standpoint. Even if you don't compare it to any of the other series that came before, it simply isn't a good set of books.
    Zeta1127 and DigitalMessiah like this.
  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    People would hate it no matter what, even if it was good and it didn't have Denning and Traviss, because there's always someone that hates something.
  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I like Denning and Traviss' writing both.

    *is pelted to death with stones*
    Robimus likes this.
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    /ignore

    They can write books that are enjoyable under certain parameters. But they happen to be two of the most prolific writers in the EU, and they were or have been pretty much unfettered in their storytelling.
  25. Cynical_Ben Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not saying it's impossible to like them both, not at all. Up until I read LotF, I actually considered Traviss one of my favorite EU authors, I love Hard Contact and Triple Zero that much. And I did enjoy Tatooine Ghost. I'm just saying that the divisiveness of the authors involved contributed to a polarizing series.