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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Why all the LOTF hate?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Jun 2, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Garak

    Darth_Garak Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    I'm going to have to check that out. Thanks for mentioning it.
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    it's the last on the list - marked "tow")

    http://www.cse.usf.edu/~pnguyen7/

    EDIT: Getting back to the subject- which things, introduced by which authors, have earned the most dislike? Issues Traviss & Denning's books have been gone over a few times- but what did Allston do in LoTF that was disliked too?
     
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  3. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    It's amazing how many people are still unfamiliar with a little thing called "paraphrasing." Is what I quoted the exact line in the text? No. Does it sum it up to get to the point? Yep. Don't like it? I frankly don't care.
     
  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
  5. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    Betrayal, Exile, Fury

    First thing that springs to mind is Vergere being a Sith, but we know that was more Denning's brainchild and everyone else ran with it for the series. That being said, I don't like how he wrote Jacen as being so freaking reliant on his Force Visions for everything, when a lifetime of lessons from his uncle, as well as his own experiences during the Vong War, should've shaped him up to do the exact opposite. Just running with the Visions, he also introduced and killed off the character of Nelani Dinn. Now I understand why it wasn't an established character, as dying in such an unsightly way would piss fans off, but killing off a character you just introduced and gave a background to along with a link to her murderer leaves me asking "Why the hell should I care about this girl?". Tried to make this new character fill an important role that she really wasn't suited for, didn't really work for me.

    If anything, she should've been introduced in Betrayal, had appearances throughout the next few novels, then she discovers Jacen meeting with Lumiya, the entire fiasco happens again, only later in the series, slightly altered to fit, and I actually care about the character somewhat.
     
  6. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    You didn't identify it as paraphrasing. Thank you for the clarification.

    Examination of the actual text is something that I very much encourage. Of course no one is going to force you to do so, but often the actual text can and is taken in different ways as the examination of both sides of this discussion show.

    Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I liked the idea of Jaina thinking outside the box - even if we can't prove that Boba was a great Jedi hunter, his father certainly knew how to fight Jedi and Mandalorians in general do have a fearsome reputation and a history of fighting Jedi. According to the Star Wars Encyclopedia they were the only people to defeat the Vong on their own, despite suffering massive casualties. It just doesn't seem crazy to me to think that there could be knowledge to be gained from such individuals.

    I'm also not really a big fan of Jaina, so anything that could be deemed as a mischaracterization might slip past me a little. It is absolutely right to point out her hardships during the Vong war, this would not be a soft woman by any definition(though I'm not convinced that is the only presentation she is given in the novel in question). The condition of her hands is a really minor thing - I would guess that she didn't have to dig a lot of trenches in her life, or frankly do the day to day labor that a metalsmith or general laborer would.

    Mandalorians fighting an extended war for years against the Vong, for Mandalore itself, with no one coming to rescue them or help them would be a pretty rugged lot to compare anyone to.

    Fighting on the front lines of a war doesn't mean she was a grunt for years on end. She was promoted to Major at sixteen years of age iirc? Something like that, a rank attained as a fighter pilot I think. She wasn't part of a general infantry unit. I suspect Maverick from Top Gun might seem a little better for wear than say someone who did three tours in the trenches in WW1 - I suspect that is what was trying to be communicated. Not meaning to compare her to Maverick completely of course, her experiences in the Vong war were considerable beyond the cockpit of an X-Wing, or Stealth X.

    And if the only focus is the bad interpretations that still leaves something on the table as well. Fett for instance was very impressed with Jaina Solo's fighting skills. "He'd have to remember to tell her one day how impressive she looked" . Suddenly the thoughts about spoiled princesses are no where to be found in the midst of battle and Fett is dazzled by how she can defend herself even without any armor.

    She doesn't even take a blow in that entire battle while Fett himself gets knocked around a fair amount and saved by his armor. Fett even worries about Jaina getting killed because he is getting knocked around, only to find that she didn't suffer a scratch. If the point of the entire books was to make Jaina look bad I'd say it at the very least deviates from that end during the battle on the Bloodfin. (Making Jacen Solo look bad is another matter :p)

    Beviin tells her that in a week of training she would be able to kill him with his own equipment which he spent a lifetime training with himself. Keep in mind that when she does actually choose to use the Force(something she was trying to avoid) she instantly puts Beviin on his back.

    So while I can see that it might not always paint Jaina in the best light, the book also shows these same Mandalorians growing to deeply respect Jaina and her abilities, while she also grows to respect Mandalorians in a similar way. Thats how I have viewed it, and yes, I do realize that many don't share that point of view.
     
  7. Arrian

    Arrian Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 15, 2011
    Thanks, CT - I needed a laugh today.
     
  8. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'm suggesting nothing of the sort, nor is the novel. As with the novel, I'm saying that what constitutes hard work for Jaina or any Jedi is unlikely to be the same standard as a non Force-user. She has the ability to modify her strength, speed, agility, and stamina pool by calling upon an outside source of energy inaccessible to others who are forced to only rely on raw muscle and matter to accomplish the same ends. It's not unreasonable to think someone's going to note the inherent inequality in their positions. Which brings me to a point I should have made previously: the entire remark was made from the non-articulated mental POV of one of said non-privileged individuals who doesn't rightly know anything about Jaina or her experiences, and is engaging in his own fair share of biased prejudice based upon a self-perpetuated Jedi stereotype, prejudice which is also subsequently challenged upon seeing the type of person she truly is.

    She doesn't cease to have privilege in that situation, she merely endures hardship. They are entirely separate concepts that aren't to be conflated lightly. She will always have the metaphysical privilege afforded to her by the Force, and though she endures rough times at certain points in her life, throughout the vast majority of the galaxy, she benefits racially from human privilege, socially from the place of cultural privilege the Jedi occupy, intellectually from educational privilege, and physically from able-bodied privilege.

    I know, not think, she had a diverse upbringing. But diversity is not a monolithic thing where once you've accessed one culture different from your own, you're suddenly enlightened and immune from holding misconceptions or subtle prejudices about further cultures. Every culture is unique in its ways, eccentricities, and idiosyncrasies, and each has to be approached individually. Again, this is not some terrible fault in Jaina's character. And as I noted previously, to her credit, she continues to adapt to the new culture she's met with this time around with grace and introspection becoming of a conscientious woman and Jedi Knight.

    You have a point here, but it's really not that type of situation. It's more like "Okay, I see this is going to be one of those places..." rather than "Ohmahgawd, why isn't everybody, like, being super nice to me like always?"

    Like I said before, she doesn't find it "funny." We're shown nothing but her immediate sadness to hear of another's death, compounded by the fact that it was by her brother's hand. She also makes a point of expressing her sympathy later. The whole thing is from Fett's POV, and as he's still grieving over his daughter's death, is really just being a dick about it for essentially no reason.

    Again, it's about individual differences, not to mention the effect of institutionalized and reinforced stereotypes. Lowie, while a large, hairy beast of a being...is also a Wookiee. A race which has held a general reputation of being an industriously clever and honorable people through the years, of whom Chewie was already there to serve as a positive reinforcement of that popular image. Popular perception of Mandalorians is unlikely to be as flattering, and without direct exposure to them, Jaina can only form opinions based on second-hand information. Thuggish, uneducated brute is not an unreasonable conclusion to come to based upon the stereotypes she likely has available, stereotypes which her father's past with Fett most likely validate. Again, this is not some terrible strike against her character. And she admirably recognizes her misconception, discards it upon finding it to be untrue, and re-evaluates based upon first-hand information. Which, as you pointed out, is the precedentially right thing for her to do as a character as well as a person.

    More likely it was simply a commentary on how someone will act at home with their family, and when they're over at a friend's with theirs. Behaviors have been known to differ.

    This, I would say is more meta-textual than direct in-universe commentary, relating to the closing focus of the overall narrative toward the Jedi and, moreover, the Skywalker and Solo family to the point of exclusion. I've got nothing to say in regards to that or its level of appropriateness, neither in defense or praise.

    I have, but admittedly found it less than stirring.

    Yeah, I'm not personally offended or anything like that. You're good.

    I'm just going to quote Havac here, since I think he put it very well:
    Combined with the fact that society, with rare exception, allows this to continue and validates said behavior for thousands of years...that's essentially the definitive image of social privilege.
     
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  9. Darth_Garak

    Darth_Garak Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    Didn't the NJO series end with the Jedi Council being made up off 50% Jedi and 50% non-Jedi, specifically to create some trust and transparency in this organization? Which was then ignored in DNT and LOTF as far as I can recall.
     
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  10. LightsaberAccident

    LightsaberAccident Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 26, 2013
    Why would the government want to trust the Jedi spice cartels? They're the ones responsible for all the terrorist attacks on Coru
     
  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Hmm, Jedi Spice Cartel.... Jedi Master Stringer Bell...
     
  12. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 28, 2009
    Great review; I'm glad a surviving copy of it has been found. Thanks, CT!
     
  13. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2012
    My brother and his wife gave me TERC today as a birthday present, which I had actually planned on boycotting, but I am not going to complain to badly, since it does have a lot of other stuff besides the whitewashing of the Clone Wars and post-NJO. However, I did read the piece on the NJO, and something in particular bugged me about it. Lucas told Del Rey not to have the villains be dark siders, which I was already aware of, and the section actually specifically states that there are no Sith or proto-Sith in the NJO, which totally contradicts how their justification for the post-NJO is supposed to work.
     
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  14. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
  15. windu4

    windu4 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 15, 2008
    How has the word "privilege" managed to migrate to the TFU forums and to Star Wars EU? I honestly can't think of very many people who have suffered more than the Skywalkers. The entire family gave up their life for public servitude and it seems a little silly to defend the viewpoints of a war mongering people who have very little interest in the plight of others in the galaxy.
     
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  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Congratulations:)
    Also: what is TERC?
     
  17. DarthSanctimonious

    DarthSanctimonious Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 18, 2006
    The Enormous Retcon Compendium? :p
     
  18. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    Which Skywalkers are we talking about? ;)

    Because the crimes some Skywalkers have committed have caused far more loss of life and suffering in the galaxy than the act of any Mandalorian in the recent post Yavin timeline. For every Luke & Jaina there has been an Anakin & Jacen.
     
  19. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Sep 16, 2008

    its sad, because for awhile Jacen was the biggest proponent to peace and helping others.
     
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  20. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Yeah, it seems that after the start of the NJO in 1998-1999, George Lucas' involvement in the Expanded Universe ceased as he worked on the prequel films, with the only story which I am aware that he was involved with afterward being The Force Unleashed -- with his focus afterward shifting to TCW.

    But I guess I'll be the person to point out that you can't really pick and choose when to defer to Lucas.
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    He had some slight involvement with LOE and Darth Plagueis, edited some things out of the ROTS novel manuscript, and wrote the introduction to Shatterpoint.
     
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  22. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    :confused:
     
  23. LightsaberAccident

    LightsaberAccident Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 26, 2013
  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    He also wrote the preface to Shatterpoint.
     
  25. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

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    Nov 21, 2000
    I needed a laugh, too, but I broke off after half of it. Man, I forgot how depressing that review actually is.
     
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