Why America crumbles before its time: Congress copies Westminster

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Gonk, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    But did Obama really go too far to the left? Healthcare reform was based on the individual mandate, which was an idea conceived by Republicans in the 80's or 90's. Can you really say that this is a left-wing idea? Also, people wanted an end to the practice of denying insurance based on pre-existing conditions....and the only way to do that was to have an individual mandate. It looks to me like Democrats gave the public what they wanted.

    Now Republicans say that Democrats are socialists. Is this actually true, or is it crap? I'm going to have to say it's the latter. If Democrats are saying there's going to be an end to science and reproductive freedom, well is this actually true or is it crap? Let's look at the upsurge of anti-abortion activism and the climate change denialism. I'd say that this accusation seems pretty close to the mark. Am I wrong?
  2. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    You know what's funny?
    Is that Republicans are democratic, and Democrats are republican.
    Kinda goes to show how much of a difference there really is between those two parties.

    As the current administration shows.
  3. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    There is a difference, and it's become even more apparent with the Tea Party.
  4. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Globally, no there is not. That's the context SuperWatto is speaking of. In the U.S. it's a bunch of liberal elites versus the democratic elites with different rhetoric.
  5. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    I don't get these types of arguments. We all understand that things are different in Europe or Asia, but it's stupid to say there is no difference between modern day Republicans or modern day Democrats. That's like me arguing there is no difference between the Labour party and the Conservative party in England, because what is conservate over there is not conservative over here so globally there is no difference. That's ridiculous.

    What are you even arguing? That the tea party (which wants little to no government) has the same political viewpoints as the democrats (which wants big government spending and entitlement programs)? Those look like opposities, not similarities. But maybe that's my "America is the best and the center of the world" bais coming though. :rolleyes:
  6. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    That to outsiders looking in, like SuperWatto, there is little to NO difference.

    If you can't see Europe, which has a true left wing-Marxist base in politics across the continent and radical nationalists and neo-Nazis who hold seats in parliaments, then I can't help. We don't have a socialist labour party straight from the labour/working class. We don't have a green party who hold seats and want to de-industrialise. We don't have a National Front that is flat out racist/separatist yet hold seats in congress.

    What we have in this country is two sides of the same bunch of elites who squabble over their own special interests groups who have lobbied their way into power. It's a clientocracy, not a representative democracy.

    So to someone looking in, it looks like a bunch of free-trade/corporate liberals endlessly squabbling. Corporatists.
  7. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7
  8. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    Okay, but that is not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether there is a difference between the tea party and the democrats. You said there wasn't, and then I pointed out how they are different, and then you replied by saying 'yeah but there are REAL socialists in Europe!'. Just because there are radical differences eslwhere does not make moot the fact that there are differences here as well. They are simply different.
  9. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    They are very different, even looking at them from a "global" perspective.

    Tea Party Republicans are ok with shutting down the government and possibly defaulting on our debt, they're ok with privatizing our entitlement programs, they're ok with eliminating many labor/environmental regulations, many of them are ok with blurring the separation of church and state, they seem to want government out of healthcare completely, they don't seem to want any investment in infrastructure, they support a regressive tax system, they don't believe in stimulus spending, they want unlimited campaign donations from undisclosed sources, they want to deregulate the banks, they are more likely to lead very tough anti-immigrant crackdowns, they are much less likely to support full equality for gays/lesbians, they are very militant in their opposition to abortion, they believe in zero regulations on guns, they seem to strongly support the death penalty, they tend to believe that Americans who don't share their views aren't patriotic or true Americans, they don't believe in raising tax revenue under any circumstances and don't really want to decrease defense spending but they want to amend the constitution so the budget is always balanced, they don't believe the government can or should create jobs, they tend to be pro-Israel fanatics, they don't seem to trust democratic uprisings in other countries (unless our military is invading that country and imposing that democracy), and they want to be more confrontational with Europe and Russia and China and really the whole world.

    I think all of those are huge differences from the Democrats, even from a "global" perspective.

    It's definitely not elite versus elite. Congress is truly reflective of the people's. They're so polarized and messed up because we're so polarized and messed up.
  10. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    ^ Exactly the reasons the Tea Party should never get into power (and hopefully won't), not that the right-wing Republicans are a lot better.

    I don't agree with the idea that the UK political parties are that different to those in America. The Conservatives are less right-wing in some way than the US Republicans, but they are still right-wing and believe in making the rich more wealthy at the expense of the poor and protecting powerful people in business. They won't do enough to the banks because the big rich guys who run them are part of the "boys club" of which they also belong & they will privatise what they can in order for them to keep more government money and not spend it, regardless of how much it costs the general public.
    OK they don't really care much for integrating religion and the state or approve of creationism and anti-abortion stuff, but they're still right-wing in the general sense.

    The Labour Party is hardly perfect either, and made a lot of mistakes when in power. But I would rather have a party in place that relates and at least tries to support the ordinary citizen.

    The Liberals are meant to be have policies that are generally to the middle, but they've veered to the right a lot since forming a coalition with the conservatives and that has undermined most of their principles.

  11. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    The fact that they believe in separation of church and state alone means that they at least believe in the foundational principles of a liberal democracy. The Tea Party has no such scruples. Then again, it's probably not a surprise that conservatives in America are against the idea of liberal democracy.