Saga Why are Grievous's robotics so superior to Vader's?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Nerdling, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. Darth Nerdling Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    Is there any explanation given in-universe or any logical way to explain why Grievous's robotics improve his physical abilities so much while Vader's suit limits his?

    Grievous, before getting suited up, was just a good warrior of the Kaleesh species. Dooku tried to infuse him with the blood of Jedi Sifo-Dyas but that supposedly didn't work. So the only explanation for why Grievous is powerful enough that he can kill lesser Jedi is that his suit greatly amplified his physical abilities?

    However, if this is the case, why wouldn't Vader's suit do the same? And for that matter, if a non-Force sensitive like Grievous can control 4 arms shouldn't a strongly Force-sensitive like Vader be able to control 6 or 8 arms but instead his movements are pretty restricted with just his 2 arms.

    At the end of the day, is there any legit in-universe explanation that makes sense or does it just come down it the fact that Vader was played by a guy in a cumbersome suit who could hardly see?
  2. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    One of the rules in the old WEG roleplaying game was that cybernetics interfered with the Force. So maybe we can theorize that a Grievous-style superbody would limit Vader's access to the Force; we all know how Vader feels when comparing technological constructs to the powah of the Force!
  3. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Mar 3, 2013
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    That's actually a very good question. We know OOU that CGI technology was able to make Grievous appear far more advanced, but finding a good IU answer to this query proves elusive. My guess is that Grievous' case is quite different than Vader's in that more than 90% of his body is completely mechanical. IIRC, his only organic parts are his organs, stored securely within his duranium alloy chest, his eyes, and his brain, which was upgraded by slaving to various supercomputers so as to improve his reflexes and ability to learn and adapt to various lightsaber fighting techniques. Of course, this background info is technically all EU and there is little hint of it in the movies, but it is clear that Grievous' mechanical modifications were done for the sole purpose of improving his fighting prowess and making him into a feared Jedi killer.

    Vader, on the other hand, depends on his suit for survival, but unlike Grievous, he is still largely organic, as aside from severe burn scarring from his ordeal on Mustafar, his head and torso are completely intact, and only his limbs and various internal organs are mechanical (the suit itself acts as a sort of iron lung). Check out this old but fascinating article regarding Vader's injuries, and his cybernetic replacements. I suppose my answer to why the suit didn't seem to improve his prowess and even limit his physical ability was because the suit wasn't built in with any real upgrades to his strength or stamina, as far as I'm aware. That being said, I suspect that it did provide him a better measure of defense due to the armor. Vader was still powerful due to his mastery of the Force, but unlike Grievous, he didn't have any computers slaved to his brain to further increase his reflexes and fighting ability. As to why not, I suppose Sidious didn't want to have the surgery performed on Vader, perhaps due to the risks involved? I'm just speculating here, but I imagine trying to add these computers to Vader's brain would risk irreversible cerebral damage, or even interference with the ability to call upon the Force, something that I am sure Palpatine would not want.

    So ultimately, the suit served no other purpose than to allow for Vader's survival and an added layer of protection for the Dark Lord. Its functionality was therefore more limited than that of Grievous, who was far more machine than organic, and physically behaved in that manner.
    Last edited by Circular_Logic, Jul 8, 2013
  4. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Another possible explanation (which seems to suit ROTS) is that Vader's new body is meant to be a prison for Anakin, a punishment: Sidious wanted to turn Anakin, potentially the greatest Jedi ever, into this monstruous and pathetic figure, a shadow of his past self.
  5. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Good question. The official word is that Grievous was supposed to by the prototype for Vader, with Vader's mechanics being the final result, but that isn't too obvious from what we're shown.
  6. MOC Yak Face Manager

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    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    It's a good question and a good reason not to watch episodes 3 and 4 too close to each other.
    rumsmuggler likes this.
  7. Darth Eddie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 4
    Personally I rationalize it that there was simply more Anakin left to work with than there was of grievous, who was just a brain and a few organs after whatever happened to him. Therefore, instead of building a highly specialized, 90% cybernetic body as was the case for Grievous, we get half a robot body shoehorned onto the remains of half a man.

    To get the same dynamism out of Vader as Grievous would be as impossible in the GFFA as on Earth in 1976.
    Last edited by Darth Eddie, Jul 9, 2013
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  8. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Sounds right to me. I think the suit is very painful for Vader and it creates a constant state of discomfort both physically and psychologically- certainly as the Emperor wants it to be.
    FRAGWAGON and oierem like this.
  9. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    I like the explanation because it also explains another thing: why did Palpatine want to turn Anakin in the first place?

    The most popular explanation is that he wanted a powerful ally to become the Emperor and to betray the Jedi , but that would mean that he'd want Anakin to be the most powerful Sith ever -so, why the suit?

    But if you watch episode III, you realize that Anakin isn't needed at all for Palpatine's plan to rule the Empire -yet Palpatine risks a LOT to turn Anakin. Why?

    My explanation is that Palpatine didn't need Anakin for anything: turning Anakin, potentially the greatest Jedi ever, into a monster is a personal revenge of the Sith.
  10. MOC Yak Face Manager

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    This is probably more of an EU thing, but I think Palpatine needed an apprentice to be his Sith successor, rather than to rule the Empire.
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  11. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Look at the living parts of GG that remain. They are far less than what remains of Anakin. Anakin did not need what GG needed just to stay alive. Also, just about any level of tech is available in Star Wars. There are bound to be differences do to time, resources, regulation, interest, etc.
  12. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    But he didn't need an apprentice at that moment... it didn't have to be Anakin. Yet, instead of giving Order 66 and killing all the Jedi and ensuring his position, he lets Mace Windu and the Jedi come to him... why all that risk?
  13. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    I remember someone trying to explain why it had to be Anakin, I think it was @darth ladnar.

    Assuming that Sidious knows of the prophecy that the Chosen One would destroy the Sith, he must have desired a means to thwart the prophecy by creating a paradox: if he could turn the Chosen One into a Sith, then even if Anakin managed to kill him, the Sith legacy would still live on under Darth Vader. Of course, he never took into account the possibility that Vader would be redeemed and turned back to the Light prior to his death, thus ensuring the destruction of the Sith in RotJ.

    I think that is a reasonable explanation for why Sidious was so willing to risk himself just to turn Anakin, perhaps even more so than the fact that Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi in terms of Force potential.
  14. Darth Nerdling Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    Thanks for the shout out, Circular!

    Here's what I would add. When you watch the scene of Mace vs Palpatine, remember that Palpatine yells: "Power! Unlimited power!" right after Anakin chops off Mace's hand as he's blasting him with Force lightning. These words don't make any sense if Palpatine's real goal at that moment is just killing Mace. Mace is tough, but killing Mace doesn't ensure that he will have unlimited power.

    However, if Palpatine has just turned the one person who is prophesized to kill him into his ally (which occurs when Anakin turns on Mace), then it would seem that he has indeed thwarted the prophecy. At some later point, Palpatine, the master, and Vader, his apprentice, will certainly clash (some time after the carrying out of Order 66, when the other Jedi have been wiped out), and there are 2 possible outcomes. The first is that Palpatine defeats Vader. If that occurs, then Palpatine will have beaten the prophecy given that he would have killed the Chosen One, but what makes Palpatine's turning Anakin into his ally really clever is that even if Vader kills Palpatine, Palpatine will have still beaten the prophecy since Vader, a Sith himself, will carry on the Sith legacy after he kills Palpatine, thus either way, Sith rule is ensured, which is what Palpatine really wants.

    If you pay attention to the dialogue later on when Palpatine is about to face Yoda, it shows that Palpatine's foremost concern is that the Sith legacy lives on. He says to Yoda: "You will not defeat me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." This shows what Palpatine defines as winning. He's acknowledging that Yoda might kill him, but he's basically saying, "That doesn't interfere with my ultimate plans. The most powerful Force-user, Anakin, will carry on the Sith legacy." Furthermore, by telling Yoda that Anakin will become more powerful than himself, Palpatine also reveals that he considers it a "win" if, at some later point, Vader becomes so powerful that he will take Palpatine out and continue on as the next Sith lord.

    What Palpatine doesn't count on is that Luke will redeem Vader. At that time, it was accepted wisdom that once you fully embrace the dark side, you don't come back. Yoda believes this is so, Obi-Won believes this is so, Palpatine believes this is so, even Vader believes this is so, as he tells Luke: "It is too late for me, Son." (I think in the EU it states that no one has been redeemed from the dark side after taking a Sith master since Darth Bane established the Rule of Two more than 1000 years before the events of SW, which clearly makes it something that happens very rarely, but within the films, both the Jedi and Sith alike seem to think that turning back from the dark side is impossible.)

    So, Palpatine logically concludes that he's safe once Anakin becomes Vader, and that's why he's willing to risk so much to turn Anakin, because turning Anakin would basically appear to ensure that Palpatine will have unlimited power. According to the prophecy, only the Chosen One can kill him, and since the Chosen One has become Palpatine's ally, the greatest threat to Sith rule has apparently been neutralized.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    In Darth Plagueis, he said at one point "Only once has a Sith turned back from the Dark Side since Darth Bane, and one day I will tell you that story"

    At another point, we see him remembering that "The last Sith to know the Essence Transfer technique was drawn to the light side and destroyed, taking the secret with him"

    (Bane is shown to know it in Dynasty of Evil)

    And at another, he recalls a "Darth Gravid" who started introducing light side ideas to Sith training in the hope that it would enhance the survivability of the Sith Order- went mad, started destroying the Sith archives, and had to be destroyed by his own apprentice.

    These things suggest that Darth Gravid was the Sith who "went light" and was killed by his apprentice before he could destroy everything the Sith had worked for.
  16. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    ^^^
    Interesting though it is, that's all EU stuff. No offense to anyone, but I'm inclined to redirect the thread unless there's any further discussion based on the films or film-related supporting material.
  17. Darth Nerdling Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, my memory of it was off a little, but really, from the way I see it, even Darth Gravid didn't really make it back to the light side. He went bonkers before he made it there, but let's go back to the original topic or we'll be exiled to the phantom zone!

    And to send us back in the right direction, I'll address one of the posts above. It was mentioned that Vader was imprisoned in a suit that would make him into a shadow of his former self. However, the technology used for Vader actually improved upon Grievous's prototype suit. So, again we have the similar technology in each, but Vader moves ponderously, while Grievous is lightning quick, even though he's not Force-sensitive. Why the descrepancy?

    A possible answer that I'll suggest: perhaps, like Palpatine by the OT, the Sith are supposed to be beyond a light saber and rely more of Force powers. Palpatine does refer to a light saber as a "Jedi's weapon," and Vader is most soundly routing Luke in TESB when he is relying on his telekenisis. Perhaps this is more logical in-universe explanation. For Vader, it is more important for him to be protected by heavy cortosis armoring than it is for him to agile since he relies on Force powers -- like Force choke, telekenisis, etc. -- anyway.

    Does this seem like a passable in-universe explanation?
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Jul 12, 2013
  18. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Robotics in general in the PT are superior to those in the OT. It's almost as if there were an out-of-universe hand that depicted Star Wars technology in an inconsistent way :eek:
  19. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    Grievous was pretty screwed every which way, so he ended up being a torso and head controlling a robotic frame without much remaining body getting in the way. Vader still had a lot of body left. His robo lower legs have to work with his fleshy upper legs and glutes and probably wouldn't be as efficient as the leg's being entirely mechanical. That's along with having health problems in general.

    It's the same reason why a guy in a wheelchair might be able to move faster than a guy with just a prosthetic leg. Provided it isn't one of those really good legs disabled runners use.

    It's also likely Sidious intended Vader to be somewhat crippled, to keep him cooped up in a walking iron lung, making him generally a more screwed up person.
    Last edited by Reveen, Jul 12, 2013
  20. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    He was to be a thematic prototype, not a literal one. Like Anakin caught in the machinery of the Droid Factory but on a character level.
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  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9

    Grievous' flashy acrobatics are no match for the power of the Force. :p

    It's been said in this thread already, but Grievous' vehicle-which is exactly what his "suit" IMO-he rides in it for all intents and purposes-is quite a lot different from Vader's prostheses. There's no integration with Grievous' actually body beyond the nerves; Vader's prostheses have to interface with whole flesh.
  22. Loupgarou Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2010
    star 3
    Really this opens a bigger question;in a world where prosthetics are often more powerful and capable than the real thing, why isn't everyone that can afford them a cyborg? Yea, vader had more body to work with, but he could have given those burned bits up for the power of Grievous (though as others have said, it could have hurt force ability).
    darth ladnar likes this.
  23. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I thought they both had weaknesses in their cybernetics. Grievous had a cough and bad lungs, and Vader could only breath normally in a pod. Grievous had to undergo painful operations and had a light-saber style that protected the weakness of his heart, and Vader had his control panel thing as a possible vulnerability.

    I always thought in SW, cyborgs were not a good thing to be.
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I always wondered why people think Vader and Grievous had to defend the control/panel heart more than another human his chest. If you get stabbed into the chest, you are either incapacitated (and easily killed afterwards) or dead. Therefore, it makes sense for every lightsaber fighter to protect the chest region.
  25. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I think that's the specific part they have to defend more than the rest. A regular lightsaber fighter would ideally be after no place getting stabbed/cut off as a goal, but for Grevious or Vader losing an arm or leg is no big loss due to the cybernetics making limbs replaceable.
    darth ladnar likes this.