Saga Why are Grievous's robotics so superior to Vader's?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darth ladnar, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Decapitated? What are you talking about man, Obi-Wan shoots him in the chest with a blaster.
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, Oct 19, 2013
  2. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe he meant incapacitated.
  3. Yondo Kuromu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2013
    star 1
    Sorry, wrong word. I meant amputated. His hands are easily amputated by Obi Wan.
  4. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 6, 2013
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    Still not an easy feat...
  5. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 5, 2012
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    I know the original Clone Wars series shouldn't be taken to literally, but Grievous still does take out a pack of Jedi simply because of the unorthodox style that he uses. Still, that doesn't seem much like Vader's style, which would explain why he opted for a more human design. Maybe it does have something to do with the Force, too. I assume Vader would have a tough enough time adapting to his new cybernetics; anything crazier would probably make the process much harder.
  6. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    This is really just a theory, but maybe Palpatine uses the suit as a symbol of Vader's inferiority? It also may be to make him feel that he needs the Emperor, because I cannot imagine that suits like that are easy to take care of, and Vader had no real reason to stay other than he had nothing to lose.
  7. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2013
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    Yes, exactly! It keeps Vader under control. In the books, it talks about how Vader has to get his suit refitted every six months or so, and how painful it is, and only at the Emperor's medical center on Coruscant is this done. It makes Vader dependent on him, and since all the cybernetics dampen Vader's connection to the Force, it keeps him from attempting to overthrow Palpatine. This would explain why Vader is always trying to work through others to overthrow the Emperor rather than do it himself.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But doesn't the same book imply that Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical?
  9. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 6, 2013
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    He could have both. He was a psychologically tortured individual. The suit would have driven him slowly insane anyway because he was in constant pain in it. This would explain his animosity and irritability all the time. This doesn't eliminate the possibility of him being greatly diminished in the Force from the cybernetics of the suit, either.
    In fact, the two possibilities together are sort of synergistic, don't you think?
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not really. If he is greatly diminished in the Force due to the suit, that would arguably be his real weakness.
  11. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 6, 2013
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    In the Dark Lord Trilogy books, I think it is more implied that Anakin is a psychologically flawed person, and that weakness (in the form of his constant worry over Padme, an obsession, really) is started and fueled by Palpatine sending him visions of her dying. This starts a downward cycle where he gets desperate to save her, and so comes to unwittingly depend on the person manipulating him, Palpatine. His obsession turns to madness as the Palpatine mercilessly pushes him. When he is defeated by Obi-wan on Mustafar, he acquires a physical weakness in the suit, since his connection to the Force is diminished, which Palpatine has no desire to correct by cloning, most likely because he fears Vader's power if he does, and must know that Vader hates him because Vader has to know that Palpatine had manipulated him the entire time by that point in time. So he could be mentally flawed and have that psychological weakness as Anakin before the suit, and have a physical/meta-physical weakness after being put in the suit. And for all we know, maybe Vader figured it out about the B'omarr monks and started growing a clone of himself that he never got to finish because he was killed by Palpatine before it could be completed; he did have a lot of secret projects going on.
  12. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Random interjection:

    I like the fact that Grievous has a slightly translucent exoskeleton.

    I mean, why not?

    It may be a little more "organic" than people are allowing.

    His cough even suggests he has more control over his breathing than Vader; which seems, in the latter, to be entirely taken over by an artificial respiratory system.

    There is a consistent theme across the PT of the galaxy slowly becoming more and more industrial/mechanistic.

    Therefore, symbolically, Vader's suit is the clunking, deadening, garbage outcome of pure utilitarianism -- "if it works" -- winning out over creativity, a respect for nature, and imagination.

    It's the parodic end-point for a youth, and the galaxy that gave rise to him, so into machinery and sweeping solutions for complex problems. The birth of the machinic, sarcophagic Vader is the galaxy's death rattle as it goes over to the Dark Side and jettisons its soul; or allows itself to be consumed by tyrannic simplicities that attack and choke out ambiguity, artfulness, and nuance.
  13. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2013
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    Well said, Cryogenic. A very insightful comment, and a subtle one that makes sense now that you've pointed it out.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  14. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Yes! The Frankestein/Vader connection, one of the things I love about the end of ROTS. I believe we've discussed this connection (much to my delight) in a previous thread.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    Welcome back, @Cryogenic! Haven't seen you post in a while...
    Last edited by Son of a Bith, Oct 24, 2013
    Cryogenic likes this.
  15. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Thank you, twowolves.

    I just realized that my remarks could also be construed as a not-so-subtle bash at the OT; though that wasn't (consciously?) intended on my part. [face_dancing] O:)

    Since, you know, which part of the story takes place before the reign of Vader/the Emperor/arch utilitarianism? Though, for the record, you could argue that the OT is of an equal or greater quality, also, for seeking out the extraordinary amidst the apocalyptically dull regime of the Empire.


    Thanks, Son of a Bith!

    Had another little break; as I sometimes do.

    This is definitely the place for discussion -- when the moment is right.

    It's striking how dream-like the top image is. The bright parts (highlights) were clearly enhanced and made to glow.

    Hmm, there are also three individuals working on "Franken-Vader" in both shots: they just happen to be mechanical in the top one.

    Nice links!
    Son of a Bith likes this.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Palpatine's ( EU ) opinion on his weakness comes after ROTS, though, and it calls the psychological stuff his "real" weakness at that point in time. This may represent a stance on the part of the author, since Darth Plagueis seemed to take the same position and it is consistent with the films ( though not so much with some of Lucas' statements ).
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 24, 2013
  17. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 6, 2013
    star 4
    Wouldn't that point at both weaknesses being present, then? One exacerbating the other? His physical weakness is without question; anyone who has to depend on a machine to breath, and whose connection to the Force has been lessened because of the cybernetics on which he depends to live, and which must be replaced every six months or so, is at a tactical disadvantage. Vader's skill with the Force is what prevents that disadvantage from being fatal (how many times have people attempted to kill him?). Didn't another Force-user find the same problems with cybernetics diminishing their connection to the Force? Was it...Durge? No, that doesn't sound right...
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I thought it seemed to point at one of them not being significant and possibly not even being "real".

    That he has to depend on a machine to breathe is not in question; there's also an understandable loss of agility. But an overall diminished connection to the Force is another thing. The point was that the author in question didn't seem to strongly support the diminished Force power angle, equivocating at best. In a later book he had a character argue pretty strongly against it.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 24, 2013
  19. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2013
    star 4
    You know, I wish the powers that be would make a declaration on this. Even though a character later argues pretty strongly against it, I find that ridiculous. Why hasn't a Force-user just cybered-up, then? You'd think the Sith would do simply in their quest for power. A character who is mostly cybernetics that are the best money can buy would be almost unstoppable. Look at Durge. A Sith would be far worse because they wouldn't chase after pure physical strength, they would go for quickness and durability, making them even more lethal. I've never heard of a Sith becoming cybernetic purely for power, though, but I admit my knowledge of Sith is limited.

    The Force is based on midi-chlorians, and if you have less of them in your body because half of your body is missing, you have less connection to the Force because you have less midi-chlorians circulating through you. If the Force was simply a matter of mystical focus, okay, I could see it, but ever since the midi-chlorian concept was introduced, it seems that all Force users, if they are to be powerful, must have a high level of midi-chlorians.

    I get your point, Arawn, and my rant isn't directed at you. It would just be nice to have someone like Leeland Chee make a decision one way or another on such topics.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Midichlorian count is a cell concentration per TPM, not the total number in the body. Thus OT Vader would still have the same midichlorian count as PT Anakin. Despite the fact that the idea remains persistent on the Internet, it has never been established in an official source that "total number of midichlorians" has any relevance at all.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 26, 2013
  21. twowolves Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2013
    star 4
    I don't know about the Force sensitivity thing. It seems that it would behoove LucasFilm to clarify this and make a stand one way or another. However, I did find this on Wookieepedia, hinting at Palpatine's motives: http://www.alluc.to/movies/watch-dark-city-directors-cut-online/168227.html, specifically, "Vader's artificial limbs were incredibly heavy and purposely badly made, frequently snagging on the inside of his suit."
    The source for this is listed as coming from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno.

    However, TwiceBlessed holds the same opinion on the forum board, Star Wars Community under the thread title, Small Cybernetic prosthesis (sic) and the Force:
    Its been noted in multiple sources that cybernetics interfere with one's connection to the Force; notably Vader and Lumiya both were weakened in their connection.

    I'm curious about smaller replacements, though. For example, Luke and his hand: has it ever been mentioned anywhere - in any of the books or comics or anything - that Luke's prosthetic hand interfered with his Force ability at all?
    Perhaps he could shed some light on this? (Sorry--still haven't figured out how to post a quote from another thread properly!)
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not that I know of. The same goes for Anakin's AOTC injury.

    In Luke's case, at least, I'd say that's simply a result of the real-world timeline: the idea of Vader's supposedly lessened Force connection hadn't emerged yet.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 26, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Vader's hand potentially interfering with his connection does get brought up in The Clone Wars: Wild Space:

    p19:

    Tragically, the lightsaber damage inflicted upon his severed arm made reattachment of the limb impossible.

    "But I anticipate he'll make a full recovery," Vokara Che concluded. "Although doubtless he'll struggle a little at first."

    A prosthetic arm. Yoda felt his spirits sink, although he'd been expecting the news. A Jedi's connection with the Force flowed through the midi-chlorians in his blood. The loss of a limb had been known to affect a Jedi's powers. True, Anakin Skywalker possessed more midi-chlorians than any Jedi in history, but even so...
  24. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    If I remember right so was one of Girevouss backstories that he was made a cyborg by his own free will and under controlled forms unlike Vader who was in an emergency. This could explain why Vader's cybernetics seems so mush cruder then Girevouss', it is there to keep him alive and functional instead of enchant his abilities.

    Also Girevouss new body is full of extra abilities that his old did not have and I think that to be able to use that kind of cybernetic body efficiently there would be a need to link the brain with a computer that made it possible to use your extra arms, crawling ability, griping feet, spinning joints, etc..
    And such an operation would probably not be without risks and then there is the chance that the operation will have later mental effects that Sidious vould not want to risk Vader to develop
  25. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I don't think they are. They way both are depicted in their films both are pretty vulnerable for their state of basically being living machines.