Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by OnyxRose, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. uwishuwereme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2005
    star 3
    What a nice thing to say so close to Christmas.j/k
  2. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    When I took my wife to see the movie, afterwards she said she hated this movie so bad she would never watch it again. Why? "Because it was soooo violent and he killed little children!"

    I tried to reason with her about the violence part. I asked her to expalin how it was she though this PG13 movie was so much more violent than a movie she loved, Gladiator that was rated R.

    Simple, she siad "because they didn't kill little kids"

    So even though it was not shown it was the idea that made it much worse than that of the bloody, loss of limbs scenes that were shown in the other movie.

    Go figure.

  3. DarthJiangWei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2005
    star 1
    I cant really decide who to side with. I kind of agree with both farrelg and the guy with the Kiadimundi icon (sorry forgot your name lol.The most shattering part of that already terrible scene is when they think that he's going to help them. I agree that murder is murder and it doens treally matter the age, because its still a despicable deed but it is also true that children have lesser means of defense and they have more innocence than adult. Adults like CIn Drallig can fend off an attack effectively better than a youngling or even a Padawan ( someone said this before.). SO i really cant choose a side.
  4. newwillorder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2004
    star 2
    My problem is with people who are SO shocked that they actually try to delude themselves into believing unsuited Vader and suited Vader are different which I think is ridiculous. It's almost like they can't accept the fact that the villain they grew up watching in the OT could be that evil, when in reality he was.
  5. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I agree,its not like it should be all shocking and controversial. Its a movie,those kids didn't really die. They probably got some free Star Wars toys.

    By this point,Anakin is more or less Darth Vader. He's a pretty evil guy,he had to destroy the threat to the emporer,atleast he didnt ''interragate'' them like the Empire is famous for.

  6. Darthdias Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2004
    star 3
    "When I took my wife to see the movie, afterwards she said she hated this movie so bad she would never watch it again. Why? "Because it was soooo violent and he killed little children!"

    I tried to reason with her about the violence part. I asked her to expalin how it was she though this PG13 movie was so much more violent than a movie she loved, Gladiator that was rated R.

    Simple, she siad "because they didn't kill little kids"

    So even though it was not shown it was the idea that made it much worse than that of the bloody, loss of limbs scenes that were shown in the other movie.

    Go figure."

    I find that a bit funny. I know that it wasn't implied in the same shocking way as it was in this movie, but the romans in Gladiator did kill Maximus wife and children. We didn't se it, but we didn't technically se Anakin killing the younglings either.
  7. Ceethreepio Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 5
    Just think, if you had a child and you saw him or her murdered, how would you feel? A reason it is so shocking is because children are a sign of the future and when children die, the future dies with them.
  8. Masterkyp44 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 3
    Doesnt that make the point exactly? we see that the children are going to die..so the jedi future is dead.(ofcourse except for the last 2 remaining jedi children luke and leia)

    I find it funny how people in this thread say there's no character development they didnt understand why he went evil. I thought it was fine I mean did you all watch the other 2 films.? He progressed to this beginning with watching his mom die and slaughtering sand people. Right then we saw what he was capable of. Now he believes his wife is gonna die and he will do ANYTHING to stop this...I Found it very believable.

    In a new hope vader watches a whole planet die...you think he cared? there were lots of women and children on that planet.

    The film shows true evil and how it can start.
  9. thechozn1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    It's a couple of things.

    1. He is told after being knighted that he needs to be strong in the darkside of the force to save Padme, and to get strong he has to kill.

    2. He wanted to make sure he was taking care of things for the long haul. Little Jedi will one day be big Jedi if allowed to live. When you exterminate pest in your home do you tell the guy doing it to spare the baby rats or roaches? Nope, and at this point all Anakin was doing was exterminating the Jedi.

    3. The precedent was already set. He killed the Sandpeople, including children. Not a shocker here, sorry.
  10. Fat_Bird Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
    He went from wanting to save Padme and his child to murdering other children in a heartbeat. He went from regret for what happened to Mace to pledging himself to Sidious in a heartbeat. It's just ridiculously unbelievable how fast and far he fell. That's what makes it so "shocking" to me.
  11. thechozn1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    But it wasn't fast. He always had selfish and violent tendencies. That's what the entire PT was about. Showing his downward spiral. From the second he walked into the Council chambers they felt the uncertainty within him. It wasn't saved up for ROTS. Again, note what he did to the sandpeople, including the kids
  12. Fat_Bird Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
    It was fast to me (and to others as well). It just seemed unreal to kill his fellow Jedis and the younglings that quickly. All to save two people (his wife and kid). Don't you see the irony in murdering children to save his child? And he was so mindless about it. This from a Jedi who didn't always listen to his master Obi-Wan or to the Jedi Council? So turning to the darkside makes a person a mindless lapdog in a blink of the eye? Even after he realized that Palpatine didn't have the answer to saving Padme?

    Also, killing Sandpeople and their children is NOT the same as what he did to the Jedi. With the Sandpeople, he killed STRANGERS in a mindless murderous rage because some of them killed his mother. The Jedi and the younglings were NOT strangers. They were in effect his "family." What did they do to him? NOTHING. He killed them because he was a mindless lapdog doing his new master's bidding. He can't blame it on mindless rage, can he? No. He doesn't even have that excuse.
  13. Masterkyp44 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 3
    Did you watch the same movie. It showed his downward fall very well...starting with the sand people. He felt such a huge loss to have his mother taken...he will do anything to stop his wife from dying like his mother. We see he is capable of evil right off in ROTS as he executes Dooku. How could you nto see this coming it wasnt fast to me at all. They showed the conflict within as he waits in the jedi chambers...he is torn and makes his decision at that point to try and keep palaptine alive in anyway. He lusts for power in ep2 always wanting more wanting to be the best jedi ever. As far as it being his "family" he murdered "twisted by the darkside he is" The darkside is powerful and the "quick" path to power.

    also why shouldnt vadar be palpatines lapdog he is throughout the original trilogy. "Do not understimate the emperor's power or suffer yoru father's fate you will" ( boy this quote alone brings mroe meaning after ROTS cominmg from yoda who thinks he lost to sidious) "I must obey my master"
  14. Lord_of_all_Noldor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 3
    Anakin is a murderer, and his deeds are wrong, however, I think that every one of us would have done the same thing in the situation like the one Anakin was in.
  15. Fat_Bird Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
    Of course I watched the same movie. But we all have this right to something called an "opinion." YOUR opinion may be that it was done well, MY opinion is that it wasn't. No big deal.
  16. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Darth Vader himself said, "You underestimate the power of the dark side". The dark side's grip is very strong, and it exists in everyone. You shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that people are too civilized to commit horrible acts. The existence of the Galactic Empire, Nazi Germany, and Communist Russia shows that people are full of cruelty. You shouldn't be shocked to see children die. If you lived in certain parts of the world, this happens every day.

    Think of Yoda when he wandered the Temple after Order 66. Was he shocked? No...because he had seen war. He had seen cruelty. In his 900+ years of life, he has seen more death and more destruction than any other Jedi alive. He's had 900 years to be shocked, to despair, and by the time ROTS rolls around, he knows better.

    That being said, this is why I believe ROTS is such a tradgedy. It's not a story about evil people doing evil things. This is about good people doing evil things. That's why Obi-Wan is much more reluctant to fight Anakin than he was to fight Grievous.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin didn't know that Palpatine was going to kill Mace. He only stopped Mace to keep Palpatine alive. Otherwise he would've let Mace finish him. He expresses regret because he didn't think Mace would be killed. Now he realizes that he has no choice left. If he is to keep Padme from dying, he has to side with Darth Sidious, the only one who can save her. And Sidious tells him that if he is to do this, the Jedi must be destroyed. There's no two ways about it. They will come for him and the Senate. And guess who works in the Senate? That's right. Padme. So Anakin had to do it, to keep her alive. He's already told us at least three times that he will become the most powerful Jedi ever. That he will learn to keep people from dying. And that he will not let Padme die, as his vision dictates.

    Thus he marches on the Jedi Temple. He has no choice. He's too greedy and selfish to stop. He knows the Jedi will never take him back and he knows that Padme will never accept it if she found out what really happened. Worse, Anakin starts deluding himself into thinking it's the right thing to do.
  18. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    It's always startling when you see children killed.
  19. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    If you've seen the OT before and realize that there aren't any
    Jedi left and you've seen AOTC before and see what Anakin
    does to the Tusken kids, I don't see how you can not see it coming.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I knew it was coming from "Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force" and the novelization for TPM, which said that the Jedi trained from an early age. Hell, "Children Of The Jedi" told us that the Sith and the Empire were hunting down Jedi children. And that was back in 1995.
  21. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    the younglings had to go by definition: the jedi order becomes extinct - it had to happen and palpatine needed the weapon to be anakin to complete the process and actually to test his total allegiance.

    but watch his face in the scene - and on mustafar after the separatists slaughter. he's not a total sith yet.

    alas - there really was no turning back once mace was murdered.


    courageous choice by lucas....he knew he risked angering some and risking the loss of his end goal of sympathy for vader in RotJ and actually throughout the OT. works for me. big time. i never think of prowse in the suit any longer...i think of hayden as anakin - the way he was and what was lost.
  22. Ceethreepio Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2003
    star 5
    Well you also have to remember, Luke isn't really a Jedi persay. I mean he was trained in the Jedi arts but he wasn't a full Jedi. He is the future for the Jedi but the younglings are more key to the future because they have been trained endlessly, while Luke only had about 9 yrs under his belt, while the younglings have about 12 yrs(up until they become padawans).
  23. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    Lets face it... even in movies, violence impacts us in different ways, depending on who is doing the violent acts, who is on the receiving end, how the acts are shown, the tone of the scene, etc. Motivation matters, and context. It isn't necessarily entirely logical - and artists and movie makers certainly know this.

    Take, for example, the destruction of Alderaan in the first film (sp?). Stop and really THINK about what happens there. An entire planet is destroyed in seconds. An entire PLANET. Stop and really let that sink in... in a visceral way. Imagine it happening to Earth, right now. To your friends. To your family. To everyone you know. To your pets, your house, your kids, your neighbors, etc. And imagine it happening for almost NO reason -- mainly just because an example had to me made. Imagine if GL had filmed it differently, had showed what transpired ON Alderaan as it was destroyed.

    However, I am guessing that for most of us, the destruction of Alderaan in ANH didn't hit us that way. And in fairness to us, this isn't a reflection of our insensitivity...*S*... it wasn't MEANT to hit us that way. Yes, it was meant to show the evil of the Empire, of Tarkin and Vader, and it certainly did that. But it was meant to be evil in a very Flash Gordon, comic-booky way, very much in keeping with the general tone of ANH. It was an "impersonal" kind of violence, a cold and bloodless kind -- as it was portrayed. The REALITY of it is horrifying, but, as shown, it was more in the "BWAHAHAHAHAHA" vein than in the disturbing, up close and personal and sadistic vein.

    But lets face it...when Anakin goes into that room and those young kids turn to him for reassurance and protection and he betrays them and we know he will KILL them and even if they beg and plead or run or try to fight he is determined to kill them? There is no prettying that up. No distancing ourselves. No way to make that "cool" or glamorous or anything other than SICK. For most, that scene hits hard and leaves no room, no wiggle room, for rationalization or doubt. That is a twisted, evil, montrous act. And it is meant to be. After that, there is no going back (er... well... there IS, of course, but not until ROTJ...*S*).


    I think the reason SOME are shocked... despite the Tusken slaughter... is that for a lot of folks, Darth Vader still retained that aura of "cool" villainy that made that kind of personal, up close, sickening evil surprising. Others on this thread have noted this same thing -- even among criminals, there are gradations of villainy... "Yeah, I might do X or Y, but come on, not Z!". This was about as low, as horrible, as it gets. To the extent that some were, on some level, viewing Vader as one kind of safer, more palatble villain (*S*), this scene was a jolt. And it surely put to lie all of Siduous' claims that the Jedi and Sith weren't really so different, didn't it?

    I have to say, what IS surprising, to me, is how many continue to make excuses for Anakin after this scene (and others!)...

    Shadow

    PS - While ROTS 'worked' for me, I can understand the criticisms of those who feel Anakin fell TOO fast. That he went from betraying Windu, in what you MIGHT argue was a moment of weakness and doubt, to betraying the Jedi and slaughtering kids, in one swift jump. On one hand, it makes a kind of sense... Sidious siezes on Anakin in a moment of weakness and great turmoil and goes for broke, essentially having Anakin jump right in the deep end. On the other hand, a slower descent might have been more "realistic"... although it wouldnt have been easy to show, in a movie that was already lengthy....
  24. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I think the reason SOME are shocked... despite the Tusken slaughter... is that for a lot of folks, Darth Vader still retained that aura of "cool" villainy that made that kind of personal, up close, sickening evil surprising. Others on this thread have noted this same thing -- even among criminals, there are gradations of villainy... "Yeah, I might do X or Y, but come on, not Z!". This was about as low, as horrible, as it gets. To the extent that some were, on some level, viewing Vader as one kind of safer, more palatble villain (*S*), this scene was a jolt.

    If people think villainy is "cool", then I don't see why they would be disappointed by Vader. The more evil a character is, the cooler he seems. This is why the Emperor is a better villain than Vader- because he's even more evil. If people perceive the slaughter of the younglings as a particularly evil act, then I would think that they would admire Vader even more.

    I don't even think that Vader's actions are any more evil than what he did in the OT. He murdered plenty of people, captured tortured Luke's friends, cut off his son's hand, turned his son over to the Emperor, threatened to make his daughter an agent of evil, and stood by as an entire planet was destroyed. Children's lives aren't any more valuable than the lives of all the other people Vader destroyed.
  25. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    I personal thought the scene was awesome,not because children were killed,but because it shows how far gone Anakin is.And I don't think Anakin took joy in killing the children.But in his mind he thinks it is what he has to do.I definitely am not justifying it.Killing kids is wrong.No question.
    I think alot of people forget that Anakin really did think that the Jedi were attacking the Chancellor.And from his point of view I can see why he did.Had Mace not tried to be a hardass Anakin would have been right beside him.But when Anakin comes in the room,the Emperor seems like a poor old man.
    I do wish that maybe Anakin fought the Emperor a little bit verbally right after mace dies.Maybe the Emperor says All the Jedi must be eliminated.ALL the Jedi.And Anakin could object,and then give in after the Emperor tells him that they will kill him and the Emperor if he doesn't do it. I think if you listen to the Emperor's words,he makes it clear that the Jedi are a threat.
    The shock to me is how quick he is to agree that even Obi Wan must be killed.I know later in the movie he still is giving Obi Wan a chance to join him,but why doesn't Anakin object about this?
    I agree that the people who are shocked by Anakin killing the younglings are probably the ones who wanted to believe Anakin isn't evil.
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