Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by OnyxRose, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    In the ROTJ novelization (I believe, although this could be from somewhere else), Yoda is the one that makes it possible for Anakin to become a ghost at the end and see his son. I don't believe this was done due to Anakin being redeemed, but was done for Luke. Luke deserved to see his father as a Jedi. And then Anakin can drift back into the madenning abyss that all Sith are destined for.

    I dont think retaining your identity can be classified as a redemption from hell. The only real purpose to retaining your identity after death is to help the living.
  2. AnakinLover72 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2005
    I think that people were shocked because they think that he should have at least spared the younglings because their only about 3 or 4 years old and still have a lot of life to live, but he had to come in and cut their little lives short. I was not really shocked because of course he is going to kill them, they're apart of the Jedi Order and he was specifically told to to kill all the Jedi's in the Jedi Temple. But then again I was in a little bit of shock because as I said earlier they're only little kids about 3 or 4 years old.
  3. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    I was shocked but not surprised if that makes any sense.I liked it in there because it changed the mood of the movie entirely.I wanted a movie that was tragic.This was it.Just like in World War II,which Lucas references,a specific group was slaughtered.Did we really think this excludes Jedi children?
  4. Dark_Disciple Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 3
    It's meant to be shocking. That's the point. It's the sucker punch to the fans that finally wanted to see where Vader comes from, what he did to get Sithed up. It's funny in a way, that OT Vader was always thought of as a cool bad a**, but he never really did that much in the OT that was that menacing or sinister. He choked a couple of guys and was a military man, but he didn't exactly go around making a good impersonation of Goebbels. I think people were thrown for a loop when they saw Lord Vader unmasked doing all the killing and especially murdering Jedi children. Would OT Vader doing it have made it less shocking? Or have people finally realised that this is what 'evil' really is. It's not cool, it's a gruesome and shocking business.

    As an aside, there's nothing remotely redeemable in Sids, and yet he is still regarded as 'cool' by many. Is it that we just don't see him getting his hands dirty, as it were that makes the difference. I think it's a little like what others have said, be careful what you wish for. You wanted a big bad Vader, well you got him in ROTS. Is the action defensible? No, of course not, and I don't think anyone here has been doing that. What they might have been doing is expanding on the act itself and placing it in the context of all the other tragic circumstances that end up leading Anakin down the dark path to Sithdom. Explaining, making heads or tails from other's actions doesn't detract from the badness of the actions themselves, it's just arriving at an understanding of it (like learning about history) that doesn't mean that it's condoning those actions in any way.
  5. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    well put dark disciple.And I think it strengthens the character of Vader by showing that he is willing to do anything.Imagine what he did after he felt he had nothing to live for except power.
  6. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    I wasn't overly shocked by Anakin's actions in ROTS and his killing the younglings. I think that George carefully and expertly paved the way for this brutal action to be included in Anakin's downfall in ROTS with how he handled the Tuskin slaughter in AOTC.

    In AOTC, we were told by Cleigg that Tuskin's may Walk like men, but are animals. Anakin took out the entire camp when his mother died, including The women...and the children too...I slaughtered them like animals!

    What we can tell from Anakin's phrasing, and his tears when he's confessing his crimes to his angel Padme, is that he knew that the Tuskins weren't animals but human. He did, however, feel remorse for his actions. Why did he do it? Out of revenge and lashing out against all who mistreated his mother. They savagely abused her and he exacted judge and jury against their crimes and took out the whole lot.

    Was it wrong? Of course.

    Enter the Temple raid.

    Do what MUST be done, Lord Vader.

    Things have changed. Palpatine's manipulations and lies succeeded in completely screwing up Anakin's perceptions of right from wrong and his empty promises to save the one you love from certain death has put our future father in a hard place.

    When he approaches the Council room and before he ignites his lightsaber, you do see that there is a tear in Anakin's eye that's falling from his face. I've often seen Vader/Anakin in these scenes acting rather like a general under Hitler. Anakin's following direct orders from his master, to disobey would mean that he feasibly could be fried the same as Mace, or worse, fail his wife by not learning Palpatine's "secret" for stopping people from dying.

    When he failed to protect Mace and support his decision to take out their powerful enemy and swear allegiance to a master of evil, Anakin realized the fullest extent of his decision.

    One thing you'll note, when he ran to Padme after the raid and explained what "happened" in the Mace/Palpatine confrontation and the temple raid afterwards, he completely omitted mentioning anything about his part in the attack to her. In AOTC, Padme got him to confess what he did, here she was unable to do so. The man she loved had already at that point started to slip away from her.

    Back to the younglings, the addition of Zett Jettster and his taking on the clone troopers in front of Bail showed that even young Padawans COULD be a threat. If they were to slip into hiding, they could eventually grow into major threats to the Emperor and the Sith. The act of wiping out the Younglings may be distasteful to most, and heinous, but in the eyes of the Sith it was a necessary act for them to survive.

    Luckily for everyone involved, the most important child managed to live and survive the purges...and Luke was able to bring his father out of his darkness and back to the light.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Lucas said that Anakin can never redeem himself for all the crimes he's committed. He can never right the wrongs. But he can stop being evil. He can stop the horror. He can take the last bit of goodness and destroy the Dark Lord, which takes his life as well. In the end, he does a final act of good which redeems him in a sense. He becomes a good man again and dies. As I've said, redemption has many definitions. One is to come back from a state of decline. Another is return to one's good favor. Meaning that if someone sees you a certain way, then you should meet those expectations. In the end, that's what happens. Anakin proves Luke is right, by becoming a good man again and saving his son. He does the impossible by the Jedi and Sith standards, which allows Yoda and Obi-wan to help him to retain his identity. Anakin is redeemed by his children. They bring out the best in him.
  8. Dark_Disciple Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 3
    Darth_Sinister wrote:

    ...In the end, that's what happens. Anakin proves Luke is right, by becoming a good man again and saving his son. He does the impossible by the Jedi and Sith standards, which allows Yoda and Obi-wan to help him to retain his identity. Anakin is redeemed by his children. They bring out the best in him.

    That's quite funny actually that last line, because Luke and Leia's very conceptions, brought on the youngling killing albeit indirectly. Anakin dreamed that Padme would die in childbirth so he turns to the dark side to gain the knowledge to prevent her death. This goes awry as we saw in ROTS. I really think this idea that Anakin is redeemed by his saving Luke is a weak contrast to his supposed selfishness in wanting to save Padme. OK, saving Luke saved the galaxy and got rid of the Emperor (a by-product), while trying to save Padme brought on destruction. Both acts involve saving a family member, though one produces benefits that serve others while the other leads to the murdering of innocents. The outcomes are very different but the motive on the part of Anakin/Vader is the same: Saving his family. Not sure Anakin/Vader has learnt anything about how to be a good Jedi from Luke or how to be a good servant and practitioner of the Force, Luke just allowed him to remember what he once was, someone who was human who felt love a long time ago, and could feel it again, this time through Luke. His son, just opens up his heart again that's all. Saving your wife is selfish and possessive, but saving your son is selfless. What's the difference? I only see the circumstances to be different. Had Luke been in ROTS and Anakin had a premonition that Luke would die, would that then still be selfish to want to save him? Or would the diehard no attachment fans argue that 'death is a natural part of life and mourning our dead loved ones we should not", as Yoda might say.
  9. JohnWesleyDowney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    I wasn't overly shocked by Anakin's actions in ROTS and his killing the younglings. I think that George carefully and expertly paved the way for this brutal action to be included in Anakin's downfall in ROTS with how he handled the Tuskin slaughter in AOTC.

    In AOTC, we were told by Cleigg that Tuskin's may Walk like men, but are animals. Anakin took out the entire camp when his mother died, including The women...and the children too...I slaughtered them like animals!

    What we can tell from Anakin's phrasing, and his tears when he's confessing his crimes to his angel Padme, is that he knew that the Tuskins weren't animals but human. He did, however, feel remorse for his actions. Why did he do it? Out of revenge and lashing out against all who mistreated his mother. They savagely abused her and he exacted judge and jury against their crimes and took out the whole lot.

    Was it wrong? Of course.

    Enter the Temple raid.

    Do what MUST be done, Lord Vader.

    Things have changed. Palpatine's manipulations and lies succeeded in completely screwing up Anakin's perceptions of right from wrong and his empty promises to save the one you love from certain death has put our future father in a hard place.

    When he approaches the Council room and before he ignites his lightsaber, you do see that there is a tear in Anakin's eye that's falling from his face. I've often seen Vader/Anakin in these scenes acting rather like a general under Hitler. Anakin's following direct orders from his master, to disobey would mean that he feasibly could be fried the same as Mace, or worse, fail his wife by not learning Palpatine's "secret" for stopping people from dying.

    When he failed to protect Mace and support his decision to take out their powerful enemy and swear allegiance to a master of evil, Anakin realized the fullest extent of his decision.

    One thing you'll note, when he ran to Padme after the raid and explained what "happened" in the Mace/Palpatine confrontation and the temple raid afterwards, he completely omitted mentioning anything about his part in the attack to her. In AOTC, Padme got him to confess what he did, here she was unable to do so. The man she loved had already at that point started to slip away from her.

    Back to the younglings, the addition of Zett Jettster and his taking on the clone troopers in front of Bail showed that even young Padawans COULD be a threat. If they were to slip into hiding, they could eventually grow into major threats to the Emperor and the Sith. The act of wiping out the Younglings may be distasteful to most, and heinous, but in the eyes of the Sith it was a necessary act for them to survive.

    Luckily for everyone involved, the most important child managed to live and survive the purges...and Luke was able to bring his father out of his darkness and back to the light.


    Expert analysis and beautifully written as always by PLJ.

    She should write a book.

    =D=
  10. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    Anakin did indeed omit his involvement in the Jedi Purge.I had a friend who did pretty much the exact thing when his girlfriend found out he was cheating on her.He said, "They are trying to turn you against me." In both instances the people know their actions will taint their lover's view of them for good.And selfishly they try to find a way out.It is an act of desperation.I think a lot of Anakin's acts were.
  11. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    Very well put, Sinister.

    In the end, I can't say that I was shocked while watchng the movie, only after as I started to think about that scene in light of ROTJ. We've always known Vader was evil, and did very bad things. But it always somewhat diffuse, off-screen, or detached, like Alderaan. Seeing him killing the YOunglings puts the evil that he had become front and center.
  12. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Why thank you John [face_batting][face_batting]
  13. RedKitten Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 1
    But they show..... Krt Russells kid, dead and bloody.... Reason with her via that.
  14. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I really think this idea that Anakin is redeemed by his saving Luke is a weak contrast to his supposed selfishness in wanting to save Padme. OK, saving Luke saved the galaxy and got rid of the Emperor (a by-product), while trying to save Padme brought on destruction. Both acts involve saving a family member, though one produces benefits that serve others while the other leads to the murdering of innocents. The outcomes are very different but the motive on the part of Anakin/Vader is the same: Saving his family.

    The difference between Luke and Padme is that Anakin does evil deeds to protect the latter. His vision implied that he was going to die a natural death, and Anakin sought out unnatural means to save her. He didn't care who would be harmed in the process as long as Padme remained his possession. This is a very selfish motivation.

    Anakin's motivation for saving Luke isn't selfish at all. Luke isn't dying a natural death and can be saved without turning to evil. As a matter of fact, Vader had to turn away from the dark side to help Luke. There's no reason to let Luke die when Anakin can protect him by simply killing the Emperor.

    If a random Jedi who wasn't Anakin's son was being electrocuted, he wouldn't have cared. The fact that Luke is his son did influence Anakin's decision to help him. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anakin did a compassionate and selfless deed by saving Luke. Anakin needed his son to help him come back to the light, but Anakin still made the choice to do what is right in the end.
  15. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    -His mindlessness, to me, came from a "just following orders" mentality Anakin used to avoid taking any resposibility. Same with "the power of the Dark Side" - it's always something/someone else with Anakin. His actions after becoming a Sith remind me of GL's statements about the Vietnam echoes in SW and how Palpy was partly inspired by Nixon. To me, that makes Anakin a glorified Lt. Calley.

    -Killing strangers or killing his "family" - Murder is murder. I can't agree with using the death of Shmi to mitigate Anakin's actions in AOTC because then you can lessen the importance of the Tusken slaughter in his downfall. In that act, Anakin learned he could give in to rage, get away with it if the victims didn't matter, and not suffer any disapproval from the one closest to him(Padme).
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Correct. It's all about motivation. Padme was only in danger from Anakin. He didn't get that his vision was telling him that she will die if he continues to do evil acts. Luke did get what the vision on Dagobah was telling him. That if he kills his father in anger and hate, he will become his father. Luke had enough presence of mind to realize this before it was too late.

    Anakin was being selfish in wanting to keep Padme from dying. He had no proof that this vision would come to pass, just cause he had two that came true before. He has forgotten the rule about visions, that they are always in motion. He didn't consider the possibility that it might not come to pass. He only considered that it was absolute and unavoidable. He was willing to sell his soul for power. He became obsessed with power to make up for his own insecurities. He was afraid to lose those that he loved and that fear was driving him nuts. By training to let go of his fears, would he be able to face whatever came next.

    Anakin wanted to cheat death, which is not natural as Lucas defines it. Death is a natural part of life and Anakin's visions look like nature is taking it's course. She will die giving birth. It wouldn't matter if it was natural or c-section. Anakin couldn't accept nature and thus fought against it, which is wrong. With Luke, he is being killed by another man. That is not natural. That's murder. That is within his ability to do something. Anakin's not thinking of himself anymore. He's thinking about what his son would want him to do. Something he failed to do with Padme, who didn't want him to be all powerful.

    Anakin let go of his emotional attachments and performed an act of compassion, worthy of his Jedi heritage. He stopped being greedy and selfish. And he realized his mistakes in trying to prevent Padme's death.
  17. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    I do agree with your general point, that Anakin's "official" turn was rushed.
    I found it seriously rushed, when at one moment, Anakin falls to the seat, and is crying, "What have I done? What have I done?" after helping to kill Mace. Then, seemingly mere minutes later, he's conspiring with Palpatine on how to find and kill the Jedi.
    his turn should have been shown to us over at least two or three scenes.
    I would have had Palpatine "seducing" Anakin more. After cries, What have I done? Palpatine starts to fill his head up more, saying, (similar to how he does in the movie) that if the Senate finds out what happened there, they'd be in some serious trouble. That part should have been elaborated on, with Anakin still questioning his actions, and Palpatine telling him, that there's no turning back since he just helped kill a senior member of the Council, Mace Windu no less, and that the Jedi/Senate would likely execute him for his actions, and that the only way to be saved is to come with him, Palpatine. And we hear the Jedi coming, looking for Mace, and Palpatine leads the confused Anakin away....
    and it's only later, that we see Anakin make his pledge to Sidious, perhaps some scenes of debate/argument between the two, and we see Sidious stepping up his anger and control over Anakin.

  18. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    So close to having me on your side for once, Sinister, but not quite. Lucas/Yoda's "let go of emotional attachments" is absurd. Love is an emotional attachment, and a mighty big one. Anakin's problem isn't his attachment, it's that is attachment has turned from love to coveting, wanting something for himself.

    In the end, Anakin turns back to good precisely because of an emotional attachment, specifically his love of his son. And his son is able to be saved by his father because he too acted out of the same emotional attachment in not killing him.
  19. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    I think it would be better to say that Anakin let go of his need for control and his fear of death.He commits a true act of love by saving Luke.He says the Jedi are selfless and with killing the Emperor he finally does a selfless act.I can relate to the idea of being scared of dying.Some would say Anakin will do anything to save Padme.But I don't think he would give up his life for her.He says I can't live without her.But the only time I think Anakin puts himself truly in danger, and not for her,is with Obi Wan.
  20. JediCouncilMaster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2005
    star 6
    Hello? We are talking about young kids here. Of course you'll be shocked. Who wouldn't? :rolleyes: The Younglings had no weapons, excluding their training sabers which will not prove to be effective against a Jedi Knight/Sith Apprentice. Anakin killed them in cold-blood. Now I'd come up there and [bleep]-slap Anakin for doing that. But that's just me.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Well, you may disagree but those are the facts. There's two types of love. Unconditional love which is compassion and conditional or possessive love which is attachment. Anakin confuses the two and falls to the Dark Side, because he's unwilling to let go of people. He can love them. All Jedi can love. They just cannot become attached to people in that way. Had he been trained from birth, he wouldn't have had these problems. They would've taught him how to love properly.
  22. KrystinaSkywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2005
    star 1
    The thing that really got me when Anakin (or I suppose it should be Vader) walked into the council room was the way the kids ran out of hiding, trusting him to protect them only to be murdered. I thought it was a great illustration of the vastness of Anakin's betrayel of not just the Jedi, but his entire moral code. It was still extremely shocking, yeah you knew he was going to do it, but it was the personal way he did it, like someone (sorry, I think it was on page 1, I'm not sure who it was) said, it wasn't like just a building blowing up and knowing both kids and adults were dieing inside, and it wasn't the clones shooting them down from a distance either, it was Ankain's lightsaber.
  23. FallenKnight88 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 3
    The fact that it was innocent CHILDREN that he murdered is what made it so shocking for me. :eek:

    I mean this type of crime is something supposably even the most despicable criminals in prison find "crossing the line". Child killers are at the bottom rung of the prison hierachy...least based on what I've heard, so take that for what you will...
  24. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Well, just playing Devil's Advocate here, but how innocent
    can any Jedi be? Child or no?
    Did you see what one young padawan (Zett) did to a squad
    of the 501st? He damn near escaped.
    It's not as though Anakin marched into an orphanage
    (well, in some ways, i guess he did), anyway,
    an orphanage of not-jedi kids...
    The Jedi, by virtue of their actions vis a vis the Republic,
    were a particularly dogmatic and political group.
    The jedi did attempt a coup d'etat, rather one agrees
    with their goals or not.
    Is it so hard to believe that the next generation
    of Jedi would pose a serious threat to the stability
    of the government?
  25. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Their abilities don't make them guilty or innocent of anything, just like our ability to pull triggers of guns doesn't make us guilty of anything.

    It's their actions, their intents etc etc - and the Younglings were innocent in every meaning of the word. They had nothing to do with "the rebellion" that the Jedi, and they, were slaughtered for.

    I understand what you're saying, they're Jedi - and they're, as Luke later proves, forces that could/would grow up to become powerful adversaries. But they are still innocent.
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