Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by OnyxRose, Dec 21, 2005.

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  1. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    What I do find a BIT troubling -- while YES, acknowledging that ROTS is "just" a movie! -- is the number of folks who will twist and turn and contort themselves trying to excuse, rationalize, or minimize Vader's actions, or the Emperor's.

    Vader slaughtered a roomful of kids who turned to him for help. Period. He did it personally, with his own hand. That is monstrous. In every detail.

    It is perversely intriguing... on other Threads, we see folks arguing that Mace was wrong to want to kill Sidious, because Sidious had surrendered, was helpless (although many Sidious fans bitterly resent and fight that last bit, granted!... lets just say that he appeared to be helpless, perhaps because he WANTED to), etc... while on THIS Thread some argue that the Jedi Younglings were a threat to Sidious/the Empire and it was thus rational to kill them. The only consistency I see in those two positions is that both excuse Anakin and/or the Emperor for their evil behavior.

    There IS no excuse for what Anakin did. He did indeed fall to the Dark Side, and became EVIL. He didn't become "confused", or simply have another value system....*S*...he became EVIL. THis is one case where it simply isn't that complicated! IMHO...

    Shadow

    As to redemption...tricky thing there. I think it might have been better to say, as some have noted, that Anakin returned from the Dark Side.. and maybe...MAYBE...was forgiven. That is a different matter, and one that I think is perhaps a bit too metaphysical/"religious" to be touched on in depth. Would only note that in, say, the Christitan faith, one can be forgiven for nearly anything with true repentance - not because one DESERVES forgiveness, but because of God's infinite mercy. I think, in some ways, Lucas is suggesting something similar, minus the ties, specifically, to Christianity. I am NOT trying to stir up a religious debate, nor give offense, and I realize the SW universe draws on philosophical concepts that cut across many faiths and cultures. What i am trying to say -- clumsily perhaps! -- is that saying that saving Luke and killing the Emperor "redeems" Anakin, or somehow evens the ledger, doesn't "feel right", if one is truly looking to balance the scales (decades of utter evil washed away by a moment of good, motivated by a desire to save his own son?). But I don't think that this is really what GL was aiming for. Anakin's past evils are not somehow erased, but his return to the Light Side is still something to be celebrated....
  2. TomPiltoff Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
    I don't think anybody is shocked that the younglings were taken out of the picture. We're shocked that George Lucas had the guts to put it in the movie, which I applaud him for.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Innocent, yes. But just as guilty because they're trained to be Jedi. That's how Anakin justifies it, just as Palpatine does. All of the Jedi Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters are the enemy. All of them will try to kill him, Palpatine and the Senators including Padme. So from a certain point of view, every single Jedi is guilty of treason. The POV is from the Sith.

    Yes. That's exactly it. Anakin can never be reedeemed in the sense of making up for his crimes. He can never right the wrongs. But he can do something that will bring him back to himself, save his son and restore peace to the galaxy. Luke's forgiven his father for all his crimes. Obi-wan and Yoda do so as well, which is why he's able to retain his identity. Not everyone else will forgive him. But they will know that he did the right thing at the very last possible moment, before dying.
  4. haydenlover92 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2005
    they are little people they shouldn't have been killed. yes i know darth had it in him and could care less.Still I thought he wouldn't do it but he did none the less.
  5. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    While not thrilled with it, Anakin's redemption seems to me like the idea of "unearned grace" - he didn't ask for it, but Yoda and Obi-Wan gave it nonetheless. Luke appears to forgive Darth Vader by thinking of his "father" as separate from Darth Vader; Anakin is the name of the "true self" and DV is just a shell. I still find Luke's forgiving harder to understand compared to Yoda/Obi-Wan's.
  6. RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 7
    Especially when you think of those poor Younglings trying to stand up to Vader's invasion of the Temple.

    [image=http://photos1.blogger.com/img/263/1246/400/Kahri_youngling.jpg] :( ~sniff

    Then again, Luke doesn't know Vader killed all the Jedi children and nearly choked his mom to death. I wonder what his reaction will be when the EU finally lets R2 tell him everything?
  7. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Yes, and when Luke/Leia will get to find out about Padme. How will that be retrofitted into the EU?
  8. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    I imagine it won't be long now. I haven't read the new post-NJO books yet, but I think I read that they were gonna start covering the situation in those.
  9. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Then again, Luke doesn't know Vader killed all the Jedi children and nearly choked his mom to death. I wonder what his reaction will be when the EU finally lets R2 tell him everything?

    Luke knows that Vader helped destroy the Jedi, which would include any Jedi children. Those actions aren't any worse than all the evil deeds Vader did in the OT that Luke is aware of. Luke was able to have compassion for his father because of the ounce of goodness in him, despite the fact that Vader was a monster.
  10. JASTERSLEGACEYV2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2005
    star 1
    well i guess that when anikan turned 2 the dark side he showed a little bit of remorse 4 mace so i guess peoplethought "o well he's going 2 spare them....... what he killed all the those inocent little kids!!", i mean they still thought he was on the jedi side, but i still think that if the emperoer (pardin my spelling) had'nt had told the anikan 2 kill al the jedi he would have left the clones 2 do it while he enjoyed a nice cold 1. but the emperoer did and the little kids did'nt stand a chance unlke in Star Wars: another flash parody when a piano drops on the kids after a musicly aided chas sceen, very funney:D
  11. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    i try to remember: anakin was still being motiviated by a saving grace: he will not lose another loved one like he did his mother. he "can't live without" padme. he made that promise at shmi's funeral on tatooine. he is desperate. he is essentially, once he disabled mace thus enabling sidious/palp to murder him, guilty. he can't seek forgiveness from the jedi. as sids says: they are relentless and they will be condemning and seek to punish the culpruits. he has cast his lot with the only person he thinks (after palpatine primed him to think of nothing else) can save padme and thus his own life.
  12. ANAKIN415 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    star 1
    In my mind there is no need for redemption or to be forgiven. Anakin did what in fact the prophecy said he would do and that is bring balence. The Jedi were way to strong in numbers with archaic views and never evolved within the Force. The Force being all powerful and being all encompassing would you not think it could be capable of retalliating? The Force is evolution of good or evil, soft and hard right or wrong. Its an entity all of it own. It learns it grows it passes its knowledge onward. Anakin is living proof. Emotions and anger and love can all be useful tools if used properly. Something the Jedi never mastered but something the Sith used for evil. While the death of nearly all the Jedi was indeed regretable and sad it was a result of them not heeding to the Force in which they swore themselves too. The Jedi viewed them self so omnipotent that they couldnt see what was right in front of them. With the Force itself it was never a matter of Anakin being forgiven, he did what he was drawn to do. I said this today to someone and I see it applies here, You need to embrace the darkness and let it engulf you. If only to claw and fight your back to be stronger within the light. Anakin was the end of the old ways he proved it didnt work. Luke is beginning of a new order one that will revolved and grow in the future
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Because Luke is a Jedi. He has compassion. It's like Lucas says, the Jedi should love their enemies. Even the Sith. Luke loves his father regardless of what he has done.

    Luke and Leia found out in the Dark Nest Trilogy. During the story arc, Luke finds out that Artoo had been recording several key events. Anakin talking to Padme about his nightmare, the night he first had it. Obi-wan talking to Padme before going to Utapau. The Temple raid, since he was in the Temple at the time and the confrontation on Mustafar. To say that Luke was shocked is an understatement. Artoo has kept this knowledge to protect Luke, but it winds up getting out by accident and then it just comes out more and more.

    No, you don't. Anakin didn't have to do what he did. He did what he did because he was selfish. The Dark Side is wrong, no matter what. This is what every Jedi learns and because Vader is a slow learner, it takes him the longest. But he does it. He lets go of his anger and hate and saves his son, just as Jedi would. Just as his son showed him the ultimate act of compassion. The Force didn't want the Jedi to die, because of Anakin's greed and selfishness.

    Besides, who says the Force created Anakin? According to Lucas, it could've been the Sith.
  14. Magical_Maestro Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1
    I'm more shocked that Lucas didn't wise up and ditch the name "Younglings" after ATOC like he did Jar-Jar's annoying ass. IMO, it's the single stupidest name in the entire PT by a longshot. It even trumps "Dooku" in it's ignorance, and that's quite a feat. And before anyone begins typing up a harsh rebuttal, for the record I really liked the character of Count Dooku. He was my favorite along with Palpatine. I just thought his name sucked, which doesn't I believe require an in-depth detailed analysis as to why it "stunk".
  15. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    Shadow Jedi, you hit it right on the head.
    I and others have long expressed the point you make.
    That there is hypocrisy, a double standard in that they rake Mace Windu over the coals, scrutinizing his every action and trying to find wrong in it -- and even worse, if there really isn't any wrong, they twist, distort and even sometimes attribute other characters' actions to him, all in order to cast him as a bad guy... sigh....
    And yet, for Anakin, they make excuses, justifications and "sympathies" for his actions, no matter how bad.
    People ask if we feel sorry for Anakin. Only to a certain extent, up through Attack of the Clones, but once he betrays the Jedi, I don't. Once he chooses to side with Palpatine, and plots to cut off and kill the Jedi, I no longer feel sorry for him. And he gets his just desserts when Obi-Wan carves him up.
    I feel more sorry for Mace Windu and the GOOD Jedi, those who didn't arrogantly and selfishly and foolishly betray other Jedi, unlike Anakin.
    Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar were acting for the good of the Republic after finding out that this Chancellor that they put their trust in and believed to be an ally, was actually a Sith Lord, the sworn enemy of the Jedi. Just imagine if, say, we find out that the the president, or prime minister or other head leader is actually an enemy.
    And if Anakin hadn't betrayed Mace Windu, it's very possible that the whole galaxy would have been spared the oppression and tyranny of the Empire, as Mace would have killed Palpatine, and rightfully so.
    Funny that people justify Obi-Wan's killing of Darth Maul (and don't even blink an eye), and yet, many don't justify Mace's attempt to kill Palpatine. Palpatine wasn't just your run-of-the-mill bad guy. he was the puppet master behind the whole wicked scheme. And, to add to what you said, Palpatine is never unarmed.... he was faking to get Anakin to act.
    Mace Windu was doing the right thing as he knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, who deceived them all. And what makes the whole making of excuses for Anakin more ridiculous is that we all know how the story ends... with Vader and Sidious oppressing the galaxy, and killing millions of people. And yet, they feel more sympathy for Anakin and not Mace. For me, Mace's death scene was, if not the most, one of the most moving, shocking and sad. I heard more people gasp and comment during that scene than any other in the movie. I also was saddened and shocked by the scene and I knew what was going to happen....

  16. Werebantha Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2005
    1) Vader was not a "baddie". :rolleyes: A "baddie" is,like, when Snidely Whiplash poses as Dudley Do-Right's horse.
    DARTH VADER ordered his own daughter to be tortured, and killed his own underlings. He stood by as an ENTIRE PLANET was destroyed (I'm, uh...guessing that that would add up to billions of people (children included)).

    2) HEINOUS...learn to spell. It helps those of us that are educated to at least make an attempt to try and take you, and your opinions seriously.

    3) yeah, killing children is "EVIL". Are you trying to suggest that destroying an entire planet-full of people and strangling people with your mystically-attuned mind-force ISN'T "EVIL".

    Adults are children that grew up.
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    stop being condescending.
    what is your argument trying to accomplish?

    it's a plain fact that we feel much less for people being destroyed in an abstract manner (like a planet being wiped out) than we feel for a very tangible idea (like the younglings slaughter) there is no scale that makes one more hideous and more atrocious than the other. it is really just how close we are to the person. and people have a strong reaction to the younglings scene even though we don't even see him do it, it's just conjecture and it's still powerful. it's strong becasue they can easily sympathize with a little kid and maybe they have kids themselves.
    i think lucas put it there because it easily defies all rationalizations of how anakin just wants to save and be nice. and it also shows the lengths he will go to in order to get what he wants. much like abraham who would kill his own son to obey god.
    in all the defenses of anakin that i write this one is pretty much beyond excuse but i still know where it's coming from.
  18. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    If people are shocked, (I say if, because I don't know any who are "shocked" because of it) then perhaps it's because the younglings are kids. As others have said, many people view kids as innocents, and rather defenseless, and so when an adult, such as Anakin, takes them out, it hits them harder. And I think parents probably take it harder than someone who doesn't have kids, or who doesn't have any relationship with kids.
    I know of parents who are upset/moved when a kid goes missing, or is kidnapped even though he/she is not their kid, because they think about how THEY would feel if their own kid were the one missing. But when an adult goes missing, they're nowhere near as concerned.
    And I do agree with your general point, although I don't know if I would so much call it a FACT, as I would call it a tendency.
    I think the actual idea is that when people have an emotional connection to the situation, they're going to be more moved by it. Often most of us need something scaled down, seen on a smaller level -- we're often more moved by someone's individual story, than say, hearing that 50,000 people, or hundreds of thousands of people were killed. Same way that many of us can picture, say, 100 bucks easier than we can fathom millions of dollars.
    But, to add to your point, there also is this idea -- that, the nature/context of a person who, say, goes missing or is killed can also contribute to how it moves us.
    For example, I am not all that moved by the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, that blonde-haired, white young adult who went missing, whom received tons and tons of news coverage, completely out of scale, when there are hundreds and hundreds, or thousands, of others who likewise go missing, and don't receive one second of coverage. And so, why do I not care much about her going missing? Because of that out-of-whack coverage.
    And I'm more moved and angered by the thought of, say, the nearly million innocent people who were slaughtered during warring in Rwanda in the mid-90s, and even more so because the world pretty much turned their backs and just blinked their eyes to the situation.
    And also, say, about the dropping of two nuclear bombs on big cities in Japan wherein at least hundreds of thousands, likely millions of people were either killed instantly, or seriously deformed as a result. People are shocked and angered by the attack on the WTC and rightfully so, but in terms of numbers, the killing of innocents by the nuclear bombs was hundreds, thousands of times worse. So multiply the WTC attack by probably by many thousands and you get the dropping of the bombs.
    I think there are times when we can see the magnitude of major mass killings, if we just open our mind to it. Yes, it can help to see it when we use a situation we know about and our moved by, but it's not always just about numbers.
    So, to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying, we can build on that idea, and also, it is possible to be moved by bigger numbers, and that people, such as me, are indeed moved by them.
    ANYWAY, back to Anakin, I didn't view his killings of the Younglings as being worse than his killings of adult Jedi. I see it just as a part of his betrayal. It was just another part of his fall.
    The worst that Anakin did was betray the Jedi, and the killing of the Younglings was just part of that betrayal.
    It would have been better if GL didn't wimp out. I mean, GL didn't show Anakin killing ANY Jedi. When I saw Anakin marching up the steps of the Temple, that's what I was waiting to see, but yet again, GL wimps out, as he did when he cut away from Anakin killing the Tusken Raiders. But at least then, he showed Anakin killing some Tuskens.
    Perhaps GL is species-ist? o_O
    It's OK to show Anakin killing Trade Federation members and other aliens, but not Jedi?
    GL missed out on a major cinematic coup de grace. It's what many of us SW fans have been waiting for since first hearing that Anakin helped to kill the Jedi.
    It's too bad we didn't get a good director to handle Sith. I would have wa
  19. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    you're right. i shouldn't have stated it as fact but as tendency. [face_blush]

    and what you say about rwanda and other events is spot on. i can't really add to it. i agree these things aren't about numbers. which is why it doesn't *truly* matter to me whether it's an entire planet or just a group of people. it matters both in that it shouldn't happen at all. i guess we agree on that. i just find comparing atrocities not very useful.

    what we both talked about is empathy, the walking in somebody else's shoes. and that is evidently stronger when it's more of an individual story rather than mass killing. it seems part of human nature and not connected with a lack of feeling that when my dog dies i cry and sob for a while and earth quakes and tsunamis just sort of leave me numb.

    what i disagree with is that we should have seen more bloodshed (or rather: bloodless shed) and that GL wimped out with these things. i found that he showed enough in a way, that left the matter more open to my imagination. in some way i would have liked to see hayden more in action with the sabre because he just looked good operating it. and at the same time i appreciate the lack of the action because it makes the matter more poignant than action-oriented. my compromise here is film the stuff and leave it as extra footage on the dvd :p
    i understand that he didn't want to make this about the slaughter itself, but about the betrayal.
  20. jedipadawanjoe14 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 3
    how could you say that? it was so sad...that cute little boy "master skywalker there is too many of them, what are we going to do" AHHHHH nooooooooooooo!!
  21. JMN77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    star 3
    Oh, OK Vader was Satan incarnate.... Better?

    Yeah, again sorry. I can see that my inaccurate spelling of ONE word has
    A) de-railed this entire thread, leaving it completely useless and
    B) made you completely aware of my south central PA 'redneck' upbringing
    where I never done did learnt anything right!
    sorry for being inferior..... master Werebantha, please let me live... please
    no gas chamber for us 'in here inferiors!


    No. (did I spell that right?)

    ****
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
  23. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I think the youngling slaughter is shocking because children are inherently innocent. Even in a film like 'City of God' the actions these kids take are more due to lack of guidance than genuine evil. In the same way, no matter how Anakin (or the audience) feels about the Jedi, the children can't be held accountable for the Jedi. It would have been more plausible if the younglings had been captured and re-programmed, then sent home and monitored. That would have been a much subtler approach to them and still just as effective in maintaining Imperial domination. It would have made a nice bit of propaganda to see the Empire had 'rescued' these poor brainwashed kids from the clutches of the sinister Jedi.

    I think Lucas chose to showcase this scene because he wanted to make it clear that the Sith are evil and the Jedi are not. The story can get a bit complicated for young viewers and he didn't want the Sith to be glorified on their own terms. This is also why Anakin was written to know what he's doing is wrong and not just choosing a path he feels is correct. later in the film he tries and defend his actions by talk of 'God and Country' so to speak, but in his heart he knows he's corrupted.

    When Padme dies, he remains a Sith because he feels it's too late for him anyway. Personally, if it had been me, I'd have laid down on my sword once Padme had been lost because the entire motivation for turning (and really living) had just vannished.
  24. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    Who defended him for doing it?
  25. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    Anakin was redeemed in ROTJ. Lucas says so. End of discussion.

    Furthermore, speaking as a Christian, I can tell that nobody ever completely atones for the mistakes they make during the course of a lifetime. Furthermore, the act of parent sacrificing himself for his child is not selfish even in the slightest bit. I'm twenty three years old, and I'm finding myself giving more and more thought to having children of my own, and I can tell you even now that there is nothing I wouldn't do if one of my children were in trouble. That's not selfishness. It's what loving a child is all about.
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