PT Why Are The PT Films criticized? (catch-all thread)

At the time I was mostly avoiding the Cave and sticking to the Finn/Rey thread and other dissecting topics in the TFA forums. I readily admit my perceptions could be very different from the reality, since I was only witnessing the bashing in the other threads and I remember a lot of them having PT-based icons.

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dagenspear - I'm done dragging that whole thing out with you, so I'm acknowledging that I've read your response and I'm gonna stop discussing it now, lest we go in circles any longer. Pasta be with you!

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Darth Downunder - Yeah, I was probably too brief in my description and how it tied to the accusations being made. Paying attention to who likes what posts gets a little too "overzealous neighborhood watch" for me!

 

The Finn/Rey thread gave me life on the TFA board.

I was in the cave for like 5 minutes before my entire body rejected it wholesale. Besides the fact that I really like TFA, some of the arguments had some disturbing issues with them. And I remember some of the more heinous cave posters used to come over here and they did not meet with universal approval, to say the least. And polls on here I think averaged TFA at 7/10 when it came out.

Not that there aren't people on here who don't love TFA, and also posted in the cave, but I think most people here are Saga fans (as it should be IMO). I think it's something many of us have posted about for awhile now. Hell, some of us like Star Wars so much we even watched the Holiday Special together.

 

Well there is a Like Police but it only consists of one officer. He's not able to arrest us & take us in (no room in his vehicle) so we should be fine.

 

I‘m sorry, but I have to dissagree with your first sentence. It suppose that PT fans should stay silent IN THE PREQUEL section and wait when the others explain why the PT movie are criticized no matter if they think that this “critics“ are just complaints of embittered fans (pun intended, of course). I don‘t think so, really. First, this is obviously a discussion in this section and anybody could participate if makes it politely and in argumented way, of course, I agree with that. Second it doesn‘t derail the thread as this is their answer of the question “why are PT movies criticized“.
One more thing: this thread exist for the mere reason that here most of the people are inteligent and patient enough to accept it and also because the admins are such people (congratulations to both of them). There are enough users who came from another boards, made a criticizing, yet motivated thread and were surprised that weren‘t banned. Well, most of us dislike the fanboy type behaviour as we suffered enough of it. But accept the existance of criticizing thread is one thing and shut up is completely different. We won‘t as we care for the movies, that is what Mike and Trica said.
You said that almost there is no such type of threads in TFA section because there is no so much people that hate TFA or something like that. Well, this simply is opinion not fact and as such it needs proofs. If you have such impressions I have the opposite ones from reviews of users and critics, but again, these are impressions, nothing more. And I even would say that as I‘m one if these people who really hate this movie I just don‘t bother to go to TFA boards. Really, why waste time and efforts in something that I dislike and consider as boring? So, I hope that here will comment only people who care for some aspect of the PT movies no matter that they strongly dislike others (as you describe yourself, for example) and I and many others are fine with that. If no, here will become the same mess as in IMBD forums and I dislike that.

 

seventhbeacon


The prequels as solely "popcorn" flicks is a misconception. Sure they are flashy and there is a lot of action, so it draws kids and doesn't take incredible attention at first glance, but there is as much to them underneath as there is with the OT.

Fair enough that not being engaged by the characters means you didn't try to look further, but if you can get used to the fantastical characterisation (I admit the characters can be less human, but they are rich allegorically), there is a solid sense of myth there that to me is really engaging.

I would admit that unlike the PT's dependence on seeing the six films as one, the OT works both with or without the PT backstory. It is really up to the viewer individually.

It's just a shame that people that wanted the realness of the OT again might dismiss the trilogy prematurely.
They are really written and produced intended for multiple viewings, Lucas's attention to detail is quite underrated.

 

In "A Clockwork Orange," they were forcing Alex watch that stuff, not to like it. In fact, they were trying to force him to be repulsed by it, so as to change his sadistic nature.

No one is forcing the prequel-dislikers to keep watching the prequels, or to continue to spend any of their time on them at all. I just don't see why PT fans can't get the same courtesy as TFA fans, in that they have a forum in which they can discuss the prequels without being subjected to prequel hate. It's been over 10 years since the last prequel came out, and 18 years since the first one came out. Surely the prequel-dislikers have vented enough by now, especially since they have had the rest of the Internet to rant to and get enthusiastic agreement as to the prequels being the worst films ever created. Not to mention, they're treated in the press as representing all of SW fandom. If PT fans get acknowledged at all, it's only patronizingly and pityingly, and with the air of, "Well, they're in denial, maybe someday they'll see the light."

And please don't tell me that "it would be boring if everyone agreed." Hatred is not a necessary ingredient to discussion. On the TFA forum, where hatred is forbidden, they still manage to have plenty of discussions.

 

Even on the TFA forums, unnecessary PT bashing and OT vs PT debates are heavily policed. I have seen a few members given "vacations" because of it. Criticism of the movies is usually steered to one thread so that the more constructive discussion can grow.

One would think that after 12 years these forums (the PT forums) wouldn't need to be policed like that, that we could discuss plot points, scenes, etc etc without someone coming in and feeling the need to comment about bad acting, bad writing, bad cgi etc etc. That those people would have gotten it out of their system by now.

Now, I want to make it a point, that I don't think criticism should be nixed in these forums. Nor do I think that these forums should be more heavily modded. There is obviously a place for criticism, there is a time for it. In fact there was an awesome discussion a few weeks back in one thread about the acting. How some saw the acting as bad and some saw it as good. This discussion completely went over my head because it went so far in-depth to acting styles, technical issues, etc etc. To me, the acting is fine in all 7 Star Wars movies. In fact acting has to be really really really bad for me to notice it, ie Sharknado bad! However, it was a fascinating read none-the-less and all the parties were civil in their opinions. It was nice to see.

However, what gets tiresome, is that we could be talking about the mystery of Sifo-Dyas, and the same people just need to pop in and announce it was bad writing... Talk about how Obi Wan would get Jango back to Coruscant and someone has to jump in on how silly a story contrivance it was.... It's those type of criticism that I consider bashing, because it has no point in what is being discussed so it comes off to me as bashing.

 

This thread has interested me as of late. So much so that I actually decided to go and rewatch TPM after what had seemed like an eternity since the last viewing I can recall many moons ago..
And it's still very much 50/50...There's still much I like/dislike about it.
And despite everything I still dislike? It's the only prequel that retains that SW 'feel' to my mind..

 

The closest thing you're going to get to proof about generally how people felt about the movies is their aggregate ratings and scores on places like IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes. You can't demand proof and then ignore the main evidence supporting my impression. I can't help you there. I also can't help if you want "proof" for general impressions or opinions, other that what is noticed anecdotally by those interested in the subject matter. It's less evident, but I think the fact that Force Awakens shattered nearly every box office record there was means it was more widely accepted than the Prequels. I also think if you were to add up all the negative articles and reviews of each you'd find less of them for TFA.

It is odd seeing the sudden burst in anger show up in these threads in the last few hours. I'm going to do my part to keep any negative critiques to this thread or others asking for it if I feel compelled to do so. I understand that many of you have been in these forums more actively for a much longer time, so it seems like these arguments have been hashed out enough times, but there are newer people to the forums (I had an old account years ago but I can't remember what it is, and even still was only sporadically active, so I ended up making this new one lat December), and many of them might not have participated in the discussions, in their love or hate for particular elements.

I sincerely wish that we maintain a focus on the films, and avoid turning things personal. You should also stop calling people out on their opinions, demanding proof for them. Opinions by their definition are just that, and there's no such thing as proof for subjectivity. I think I've had to repeat that damn bit of obviousness on this thread alone half a dozen times already. Enough's enough.

I'm more interested in doing what Jcuk is doing, next. I started by rewatching TPM the other day, and will continue to do so with the others, with the sole intent of focusing only on what I like. I have not yet written up the review, but the goal I set for myself is to not include any negative elements, eye-rolling, etc.... and to only focus on the things that I like. I think that's a pretty straightforward goal and a way for someone like myself to revisit these movies after such a long time. It's also an attempt at an olive branch and reconciliation, because I'm still passionate about Star Wars and still want to be a part of the community that feels likewise, even the parts I disagree with.

 

Just because TFA has higher scores on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes doesn't make the prequels bad, or is a criticism itself. I think TFA has higher scores right now than almost all the Star Wars, so if that's the case, then the critique is that all of Star Wars is bad. (I'm too lazy to go look, but I believe it's even higher than ESB.)

All the movies have good scores and did very well at the box office and so are all pretty good films that form a body of work that some will like parts of over others.

It's heartening to hear you all are watching them again. I know that when I first saw AOTC, I didn't like it very much, but have since come to enjoy it a whole lot. Now some of my favorite Star Wars moments are in that movie. The thread "What's your favorite detail" gives a lot to look for. I think there are some other threads too.

TPM is a little polarizing for me still, but all of these movies are unique in that I like them more each time I watch.

 

I am sure that I speak for most of the more active and regular members here in the PT forums. No one is interested in chasing out newer members out of the PT forums just because they have a criticism or two of the PT. Again, to reiterate my earlier point, to me, and surely others, the difference between having a discussion about criticisms and bashing is certainly obvious when we see it.

To expand on my earlier examples, if we are talking about an in-grown toe nail on Anakin's left foot, and how it may or may not have contributed to his agitated state and his ultimate turn to the dark side, and someone drops in with criticisms of how Hayden's toe was perfect example of bad acting, or bad writing, or bad cgi etc etc and oh and btw Jar Jar Sucks!, to me that is bashing because it becomes clear that the person has no interest in the topic, only in criticism. This type of behavior happens quite a bit in this section of the forum. It's usually the same people that continuously do it, so they develop a stigma for themselves because of their own actions. There are plenty of members here in the PT forums that have complaints of the PT, and express them willingly and openly without reprisal from " hardcore pt defenders" One such member is HevyDevy. Don't believe me, just ask them!

A new member, while new, and may want to discuss their criticism of the movie, should realize that the above behavior is unacceptable. I mean it is common sense that you don't drop into a conversation and just start complaining, unless that is what the thread is about.

So I agree with you, that new members that want to get their criticisms off their chest shouldn't be run out because they have criticisms or are new, however, it doesn't take long to figure out, by their behavior, posting habits, general attitude, if they are here to just complain endlessly, or if they are here to actually have a conversation. If someone wants to complain just for the sake of complaining with no openness to discussion or rebuttals from the rest of the membership than they should stick to social media for their release of unhappiness. If someone wants to express criticisms of the movies, does so appropriately, in the appropriate threads etc etc, than usually there is no problem (note I said usually, surely there are exceptions to that sometimes).

If some of us seem to be harsher towards certain members who have criticisms of the PT, there is usually a reason behind it. The harshness is usually, but surely not always, earned through behavior that has been noticed over weeks, months, even years from the member who is treated harshly. We have members here, that only post criticism after criticism after criticism, day after day after day, week after week, etc etc etc. They do the things I outlined above, and more. Their antics are tiresome and grating.

Well, if you are all about the obviousness of what opinions are, than you should also obviously realize that some opinions are not some kind of shield. Some opinions can be wrong, some can be criticized. They are not bullet proof. Of course it always depends on the opinion itself and it's context, but, just because it's an opinion, doesn't mean it's beyond reproach.

 

I don't know what it is. One theory is that they know that most people don't actually listen to anything they (or really any of us say) so they seem to have some penchant to try to keep their narrative about the prequels going because if they don't then the larger reality of their success with and enjoyment by the actual general audience will establish itself even in the geekdom media.

They seem to need to have constant reinforcement of their narrative of all phases of the movies both in the movie and the behind the scenes.

Oddly and unexpectedly (for them not anyone else) TFA and the new era is making this all the harder as Lucasfilm has shown both in TFA, Rogue One and all the new canon that the prequels are completely woven into the fabric of the story. So they have to try and come up with new ways to accept the story they don't like but is simply there and not being ignored and focus harder on things in the movies themselves.

As we have seen the behind the scenes story they have been working on for years is decaying as they have to deal with the realities of the new movies production. Some are desperately trying to hang on to the old narratives but the new fans simply don't have the nostalgia about the original movies.

 

Opinions are like a***holes, everybody's got one...This has always been my mindset when ppl continue to divulge about the prequels.

 

I've come to appreciate the prequels more and more in the past year. I have come to realize that they are by no means "lesser media" as the internet has tried to convince me for the past 8 or so years. It was like realizing the Emperor had no clothes. Suddenly I could just appreciate them without having to be overly critical in ways that I would never be with any other movie.

Since then, my feelings have tended to alternate depending on the time. Sometimes I prefer the prequels to the originals. It really depends on whatever my current interests and moods are.

 

That might be an interesting thread idea, if the mods are okay with it, where the theme would be people who either dislike the prequels or like them less than the originals have to sincerely list things they like about them without mentioning any negatives. I remember this idea being brought up on a now-locked thread; the idea didn't end up going anywhere but I think it would be really interesting and has potential for some unique perspectives.

 

Darth Maul doesn't.

 

Shabamzz! Blammo! Shabamzz!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

First off, I'm not a prequel hater. Do I like them as much as the original trilogy? No, I do not, but it does not mean I do not like them. I do actually like the prequels. My criticism was to the point that the minute anyone who does not like them as much as the prequel lovers makes a comment that is critical, or isn't glowingly in favor of the prequels, that individual is branded a "hater" and is subjected to name calling, and their thoughts or opinions on the movies are immediately discredited and dismissed by those who love the prequels. There are those who blatantly and unabashedly hate the prequels, and will take every opportunity to bash the movies. And in most cases, do so with the sole intent of being a jerk and getting a rise out of those who love the prequels. They bash the movies simply because they know it riles and insults the vast majority of those who love the prequels. Not everyone who makes a critical comment about the prequels is a "hater" or trying to bash the movies for the sake of bashing them, but since, we're all lumped in together, it makes it frustrating when trying to have a conversation, and being met with a childish vigor of hate and disdain simply because we don't like them as much as others do.

You are dead on correct in your point that not everyone likes the same movies as everyone else. People absolutely have different tastes in movies and as a result will have different viewpoints about those same movies. But you miss the mark in assuming that those who are critical, or bash the movies do so simply because they were crushed that they didn't like them. The reality is that people are going to be critical, or bash because everyone interprets things in their own way. They're going to see the movies in how it appeals to them, or maybe to how it affects their life, or potentially to a correlation to their own life.

For myself, I am critical of the movies, not because I dislike or hate them. I'm critical because I see the untapped potential of the movies that Lucas fell short on capturing. That doesn't make them bad movies, or mean that I hate the movies. It simply means I feel they could have been done better.

Lastly, actually yes, the prequels lovers are forcing people to like the prequels. It's why anyone who has a differing opinion is roundly bashed and uniformly labeled a hater without any consideration for their point of view.

 

Oh jeez. That's a lot of text for a post where I didn't even call you out, but was making a point about staying on topic instead of sniping at each other so this thread wouldn't get locked.

Sorry for not getting your nuanced take on the prequels in your previous post where you were offended on behalf of people who dislike the prequels. I'm sure you can understand it was an easy assumption to make based on your previous post.

But no, no one is forcing you to like the prequels by having conversations on the internet that pick at people that hate the prequels. That's not what "forcing" means.

Instead, you could stay on the board, get to know the regular posters here who have a spectrum of feelings about all the movies and engage with them. We'd be happy to have you and I promise no one will abduct you in the night and brainwash you into loving Jar Jar.

 

The film "The Prequels Strike Back" does a solid job on the prequels on its merits and criticisms and beyond.

Worth watching.

 

I think many people were disappointed on how Anakin was portrayed and how his romance with Padme was handled.

Many people dislike the use of the clones by the Jedi too. Use of people genetically tailored and conditioned from birth to be perfect obedient soldiers, without freedom to choose what to do with their lives seem like a villain's weapon.

Also, there are a few plot points that are hard to believe (Padme's death, for example).

All in all, I like the prequels. I like it a lot how they portray the Old Republic and the Jedi Order and the rise of the Sith, and that allows me to overlook those other parts I dislike.

 

Very interesting statement about the clones. I have always liked that Lucas included that element of the “perfect soldier“ : a living and efficient weapon with the purpose to show the atrocities of the war, the concept of the war, the concept of the perfect army. Is not that this concept is likeable but as is strong reference to our world, I like that Lucas included it. So my question is: why people could dislike that? I‘m curious, that‘s all, because I just don‘t understand. I mean, Lucas didn‘t included that to make a homage but to refuse it, or at least it is obvious for me that he disagree with that. So why dislike it?

 

I think the thought is interesting too. The idea that a group of beings raised in a religious order from birth with no other choice or much freedom would have an objection to clones engineered to fight a war doesn't seem that far fetched to me, but it's something to think about.

 

I like the moral ambiguity of the Republic. After all, it couldn't be too heroic since it became an Empire at some point. It is cool that the clones are like private slave soldiers to the Republic and probably are not 100% sure why they are fighting the war. Mirrors alot of recent events like the Iraq War. Basically the GCW is a war of heroics. A war with purpose while the Clone Wars is a hopeless lost cause war. Adds a brutal depressing vision to a conflict, that on the surface, looks like endless cloned people fighting endless robots.

 

And that's what makes their part in decimating the Jedi so perfect. It is them being destroyed by the living embodiment of one of their chief flaws brought to its greatest extreme. The Clones living within uniformity as dutiful soldiers who do what they're ordered without question. (That's the reason reason why I personally don't care for the "chips in their brains" thing added in TCW, but I digress) Arguably it was the Jedi's rigidness and desire for conformity amongst themselves that allowed for them to become cloistered and aloof. It is what kept a wise and perfectly capable master like Qui-Gon off the Jedi Council. And helped to push away a promising member like Anakin as well as Dooku arguably. The idea of a Clone Army, genetically all being the same person in this case in fact, takes that idea further.