PT Why Are The PT Films criticized? (catch-all thread)

The Republic's and Jedi's use of the clones is just not about moral ambiguity. Obviously many of the conversations have centered around what else were they supposed to do. They know that the Separatists are gearing up for war, so they have to protect themselves and the innocents of the Republic. Are the Jedi supposed to just let the Separatists march on Coruscant? We also know that the Republic does have some sort of anti-clone laws in effect as per what Organa says:

"The Senate will never approve the use of clones before the Separatists attack"

The wording is very subtle, but, it is extremely important. Organa doesn't say "the use of the clones" or "the use of those clones", which would specifically imply he was talking about the clones they had found. The wording "use of clones" highly suggests that Organa is talking about laws that are on the books that the Senate would have to debate over, and than vote to overturn those laws that dictate the use of clones.

So yes there is the moral ambiguity of that situation, but, deeper than that, and keeping with the theme's of what Lucas is going for is the role of fear. What fear makes us do when we give into it. The constant lessons from Yoda on fear are lessons that all the characters fail to listen too (even the Jedi themselves to a degree). The Republic give into their fear, thus, they make decisions that go against their laws. They give power to an individual, which goes against the principles of a democracy, out of fear, etc etc... So the Sith's representation in the movies is that of fear, and what good people do when they allow that fear to overtake them...

I think if people have issue with the Jedi's use of the clones, than they are aren't taking the time to really deconstruct what is happening...

 

There is also the question in universe that what role does the Clone Trooper play after the war? Do they keep the Republic military and wait for other threats? Do they disband and have them work in a civilized society? Can you have a trained killer for most of their life adapt to a regular job? Can they be accepted with prejudice against clones? These are interesting questions imo.

 

Yes, they are the perfect solders. They obey, but they could think, i.e. be creative in war, they are made with the purpose to be soldiers and they don' ask questions. Efficient living killing machines and believed or not, the real world generals dream of such Army. Also, you know, they are not real individuals, i.e. subjects, they are tools of war. This is one of the most interesting and at the same time horrifying concepts on PT: almost anybody in the Republic doesn't consider the clones for something more than living battle droids. So, why the Jedi accept this perfect Army made for war and they supposed to be PEACE keepers? My theory is that many fans just cannot accept the fact that the good guys can make some bad and big mistakes but the prequels dare to show exactly that.

 

Well, in a way the Jedi themselves don't view themselves as subjects but tools of the force, which is why they deny the self so much and why they take children with no other frame of reference so they don't know any different.

In a way the clone troopers are the perfect mirror for the Jedi.

This isn't to say that the Jedi were bad, but they needed to change, per Yoda's realization in the ROTS novel.

 

There are those who believe that the moral ambiguity the PT (and in some ways, the Expanded Universe as well) killed the mythological aspects of Star Wars (which is total BS). I think it added an extraordinary amount of dimension to extremely iconic characters. With Vader, it's blatantly obvious. However, what amazes me is what it did to Yoda and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan is viewed as the ideal Knight. He embodied the Jedi Order at the time without any of its corruption. He was compassionate but kept his emotions in check, he fought for justice without giving in to wrath and he was very well-tuned to the Force. He truly ended up following in his master's footsteps despite the hard existence he would lead in the Dark Times. Possibly even surpassed him in some ways when it came to skill. This becomes even more obvious when compared to those like Mace, who was swallowed whole by the Order's corruption and sacrificed his ideals (I think his mastery of Vaapad is heavily symbolic of that), inadvertently paying the ultimate price for it.

Yoda, on the other hand, has a remarkable transformation. He goes from an active warrior in the PT to a shaman of sorts in the OT. I think recalling his instances of combat and seeing him training his Order in preparation for conflict with the Dark Side dramatically increases the impact of his statement, "Wars not make one great". After all, he would know. He's lived that example and seen many of his Order's finest swordsmen fall (either to death or evil) before his very eyes. He trained and prepared exhaustively for centuries and even that wasn't enough because he couldn't see what was right in front of him. Which is actually rather apt. The only examples the Jedi had of the Sith having the possibility to usurp them was in cases like the Great Hyperspace War, the Battles of Ruusan, Revan and Malek's fall and destructive campaign against the Old Republic, the fall of Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, etc. However, this time it was through pure deception and subterfuge. A plan that was a millennium in the making. I know this is Legends but you get my point.

The fact that these characters aren't how they were like in the OT (Yoda, for example) is what makes the saga distinctive.

 

it's been ages since I read it , can you remember where that bit is ?

.

 

Right at the end of the battle with Palpatine before he flees.

 

That would require detailed and open minded examination of the movie on all levels of story and characters through the visuals, music, dialogue et all which serves no purpose for those people who have no interest in the story being told but the one that they want to be given.

The text and meaning they want are not available to them in proportions they can observe or feel.

 

Yup: this bit:

There came a turning point in the clash of light against dark. Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didn’t-
have it.
He’d never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years’ intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new.
While the Jedi-
The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any touch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark’s own weapon?
He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.
“Hmmm,” Yoda thought. “A problem, this is…”


It's not till his conversation with Qui-Gon right before Padme's death though, that he actually takes blame upon himself specifically:


He spoke softly, but not to himself.
Though no-one was with him, he was not alone.
"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did."
He spoke to the Force.
And the Force answered him. Do not blame yourself, my old friend.
As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.
"Too old I was. "Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago- but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not- because let it change, I did not."
More easily said than done, my friend.
"An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."

 

That's fantastic. See... now why couldn't that have been in the film?! It adds so much needed context and thematic elements. The Jedi Order dying to be reborn in Luke becomes so much more if that transition is acknowledged on the screen. Definitely going to be reading the ROTS novel now.

 

I'm not sure if it could be captured in a satisfying way. There was a scene with Qui-Gon and Yoda and it was cut. I'm not sure it would have done the job.

 

It would work better if between Yoda and Obi-Wan I think. Or even between one of them and Bail Organa.

 

Well there's any number of reasons why. It might even be an interpretation of of Stovers and not necessarily that of Lucas...

If it was something that Lucas was toying with, than he may have taken it out for various reasons. One of which might be he felt the idea that the Jedi order had to die in order to be reborn might be a slippery slope of justifying evil.

Also, the idea that the dialogue appearing in the novel somehow adds context I think is not true either. It adds no context in what exactly the Jedi needed to change. So that is still entirely up for interpretation. For all we know, it could be simply the arrogance that had seeped into the Jedi Order.

We can't forget that many of the more controversial issues that some in the audience have with the Jedi Orders rules, specifically those that sorrund Anakin, i.e. teaching him to let go of that which he fears to lose, are still lessons that Yoda passes onto Luke in a more streamlined manner. Yoda basically is telling Luke the same thing in ESB when he basically tells Luke that is he honors what Leia and Han are fighting for, than Luke must be able to let go of them, and sacrifice them for the bigger picture. That basically Luke has to let go of his emotional connection to them and let them die if need be.

I think that the moment in the book is more about Yoda putting the weight of what happened on himself, the guilt of what happened on himself, rather than a moment of truth that the Jedi Order was deeply flawed. Obi Wandoes the same thing when dealing with Anakin. Obi Wan blames himself for Anakins fall, when the fact of the matter is Anakin was a grown man that knew the difference between right and wrong, so there is nothing Obi Wan could have ever done to change the outcome. Anakin's flaws were inherent to Anakin and he would have made the same decisions irregardless of the Jedi's Rules.

So there is really no context by what is in the novel, what you think is context is more you interpreting the lines as justification for your opinion.

 

More so trying to add depth and layers of meaning to something that I feel lacked both. But as you pointed out, the teachings didn't change drastically from the practices that existed prior. Maybe the change, however, was about the Jedi and their relation to political power, their de facto role as generals in wars... wars being an antithesis to the Jedi beliefs and practices, even though combat was central to their training and function on a smaller case-by-case basis of correcting injustices.

Pretty sure you just did the same thing in your reply... also pretty sure that's how opinions and explaining them work for everyone. So... maybe let's stick to explaining our opinions, and skip the need to point out the obvious that we're all expressing opinions here?

 

I realize I gave an opinion... Your opinion was that the scene and dialogue from the novel added "much needed context", when clearly it doesn't (imo). It still leaves much to interpretation and opinion because there is no way to discern exactly what Yoda is talking about. Opinions aren't bulletproof shields, they are surely open to praise, agreement, scrutiny, and criticism. I was merely disagreeing with your point, with your opinion, and giving my own. You don't have to agree with me of course, but, I fully understand how opinions work and wasn't pointing out to you anything more than I disagreed with your opinion and giving an explanation as to why.

 

Have fun debating someone else. If you say something else I think is worth replying to, I'll consider doing so. Meanwhile, your tone is clearly not something I care to engage with tonight. Cheers.

 

I do agree for the most part, but, also to be fair, the meanings, morals, themes of the PT are buried a lot deeper into the story than the OT. So I think for some (maybe a lot) of people, they just aren't willing to make that investment to get to those deeper themes, and not so much a capability (which I believe you were implying in your last sentence, forgive me if I'm wrong).

For example, in my early 20's when I saw The Shining. While I had the capability to understand the deeper themes,meanings, motifs and even see the somewhat subliminal messaging of the movie, I didn't have a willingness too. I simply saw the movie as a horror film, something that was merely to scare people. It wasn't til years later that I got into a conversation one night with a co-worker about our favorite films, and he brought up The Shining and it's use of subliminal visuals within the hotel to create confusion for the viewer. I was intrigued because I never picked up on it and he explained how in many scenes, if one pays attention to where the background people walk, they are basically walking into dead areas where there couldn't possibly be open space. He pointed out how the doors in the hallways couldn't possibly go anywhere because they are too close together. So after that moment, I had a willingness to watch the shining with a more open mind and I now see so much more in that movie than just a horror flick.

So, there has to be a willingness there from fans not to want to look at the PT through OT colored glasses. If they do, than they will miss a lot of what the PT has to offer!

 

It's fairly obvious what needed to change. What the hell are you talking about?

 

Fairly Obvious? Well please check out the at least half dozen or more threads in which this issue has been brought up where people on both sides of the issue have been able to bring up strong and valid points as to why they feel the way they do.

The bottoms line, imo, is that nothing the Jedi could have changed would have saved them. Everything that happened to them would have happened anyway irregardless of Anakin Skywalkers decisions, because that's how Palpatine set it up to be. Palpatine's victory was not reliant on any Jedi doctrine or on Anakin turning to the darkside. IMO.....

 

This is presumptive. I'm not sure why this line of thinking continues to happen. "If only you'd look at the films deeper, then you'd get it." This is condescending and comes off elitist. The vast majority, I believe, have given the PT multiple chances, viewing it from all kinds of angles. It just didn't do it for us. And I speak for myself, but I'm sure more feel this way, but it kills me that I didn't like them. They're Star Wars movies for God's sake.


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Palpatine wasn't the first Sith to go into hiding though. According to the newcanon Tarkin novel - the Sith temple on Coruscant has been quietly corrupting the Jedi for some 5000 years.

In that sense "Jedi doctrine", being thousands of years older than Palpatine, may have been slowly corrupted over time - with Palpatine reaping the benefits.

 

I'm being presumptive? I spoke of "some", I didn't generalize my opinion as being reflective of all people who didn't like the PT or those that have criticisms. I said "some"... And than on top of that my "some" are only a part of the group to which Qui-Riv-Brid was speaking of and they surely didn't make a gross generalization but we're only speaking of a specific group. I didn't use a genrilization like "vast majority" like you did, now did I? But I'm being presumptive?

I didn't specifically include you in any genrilization, I don't know you, so how could I? You're the only one that knows if you are or aren't. However, You kind of included yourself into that group, just so you could take offense to it... I wasn't being presumptive one bit. I spoke of some, of which that some was a part of a group that another member was talking about. I didn't say that every person that disliked the PT was included in my genrilization.

You might have your reasons for not liking the pt, if those reasons aren't online with what I was replying to another member about, than I wasn't talking about you. So not sure why you take offense?

 

Parenthetical (Maybe a lot) is a generalization. It's a common train of thought I see that PT critics just don't make the effort to understand. Which is definitely presumptive. When PT critics make generalizations that PT fans are easily distracted by lightsaber fights and CGI, that's presumptive as well. I don't like the tone from both camps that portray the other side as less than.

 

Not necessarily speaking about everyone (particularly here), but a lot of people I meet that hate on the prequels on social media and whatnot are pretty superficial about what they hate about them. That's to be expected of course, because the vast majority of people on the planet don't really think about Star Wars much at all, or any movie for that matter. There are movies out there that I didn't like at all and I'll say so but I'm not going to study something I dislike for the benefit of deeper conversation.

That being said, if someone is going to give a deep dive of why they don't like something or bother to produce media around it, then I think they should give it more thought over and above the sentiment that it didn't do it for them. On the other hand, I will probably never understand why anyone who didn't like the prequels even bothers.

One thing I think is funny is that, while I saw the prequels and liked them fine back then (without giving more thought than that), the overwhelming force of geek media hate around them had me say they were bad before I went back and re-watched them last year and realize that I really liked them a lot. So I think that a lot of some of the ambient hate is not really there in any thoughtful way. Moreover, when I "came out" to my friends about really liking the prequels, a bunch of them were like, "Me too, but I never say anything!" like it was a relief or something. It was weird and funny and sad all at the same time.

 

I said.. some (maybe a lot)... Comprehension is key here.... It should be obvious that I have no way of quantifying how many I was talking about... so I was talking about some (maybe a lot). Once again, you are going out of your way to be offended when I was only speaking about a portion... some (maybe a lot) of a smaller group that myself and another member were talking about. I was not speaking about gross generalizations of every person that dislikes the PT like you are trying to portray it is... Again, you are going a long ways in order to be offended by something that I obviously wasn't trying to group everyone that dislikes the PT into...

I appreciate your input here Iron! You are the absolute best at pulling these details out of the novels. I haven't actually read the novel Tarkin, only read the "cliff notes" versions.

I don't want to seem like I am just summarily rejecting the point you made, because I know you (as well as others) like the novels. I however, really struggle with the post-Lucas stuff, especially in this case where the Dark Side works through osmosis... I just have a hard time with it, seems like it doesn't jive with what we see in the movies, where one taps into the Dark Side, not the other way around...The movies center around choice, not being forced...

Thank You for sharing that Sepra! While there is no way we can extrapolate outwards as to how many "haters" are in the same position as you (and some of your friends) were in, the important thing to take note of is that there are certainly many others out there that are still caught up in that herd mentality. Hopefully one day they have the courage to speak out as you did!