PT Why Are The PT Films criticized? (catch-all thread)

I found the PT love story bad primarily because it felt forced and fake.
I didn't see two people in love, I saw two actors struggling to recite lines and failing to sound convincing.

The Han Leia romance had at least the advantage that I could see two people in love.

As for Han's line.
It is actually quite clever.
Han and Leia has been together for three years now and Han has feelings for her and can see that she has feelings for him. But she won't admit them and he pushes her on this more than once.
And while she tries to deny it, he sees that she is lying to herself.
When she finally admits the truth, that she loves him, Han's line sums up the situation for him since the start of the film, "I know."

Anakin meanwhile, he met a girl for a few days when he was nine and then didn't see or speak to her for ten years. But in all that time, he never stopped thinking about her.
That is quite creepy and isn't love as much as an obsession.
Which sort of works as it explains the length Anakin will go to save her.
Even doing things that he knows would horrify her.

It is like a guy that had a crush on a girl in high school and never got over it. And he's spent many years obsessing over her. This type of guy quite often winds up as the creepy stalker in horror films.

Han knows Leia, they have spent a lot of time together.
Anakin at the start of AotC doesn't really know Padme.
He met her for a few days ten years ago so he doesn't really know her as a person.
She is more an object for his desires.
Which is how the romance came across to me in many ways, Anakin wants her and not really for who she is now but as something he spent ten years dreaming about.

And Padme, at first she is apparently so creeped out by Anakin's stares that she turns off the cameras in her room, which are there to keep her safe from an assassin that is trying to kill her.
To me, anyone that prefers risking their lives as opposed to have someone look at them in an undressed state, they have to be pretty seriously creeped out.

Then when Anakin comes to her and admits he committed mass-murder, including women and children, she mostly shrugs it off. That this didn't have her more worried or that she didn't even suggest talking to Obi-Wan about it, did not sit well with me.

To sum up, if the romance worked for you, great and I mean that.
To me, it didn't. And it had the problem of stopping the film every time it cut back to that.
In ESB, Han and Leia are doing other things in addition to the romance so if that doesn't work, there is other stuff.
And when I first saw ESB, I was eleven and hated romance in film cause "icky".
So that wasn't anything that I liked about ESB at first. But there was other stuff going on that I did like.

In AotC I didn't get that, so when it cuts back to Anakin and Padme, it is the romance and just the romance and when it doesn't work, it is like switching from Drive to Reverse on the highway, the story's transmission just shredded itself and the film ground to a halt.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

How lame and unproductive. PT fans keep on arguing and arguing when really, they can just ignore the dead and true critiques and let this thread actually die. And PT critics have no purpose for this thread(or much of the fourm) so you all just keep repeating your same ol same ol argument when in reality, it holds and amounts to nothing now. When the horse is gone, you go on and create a new one.

If you can't let go, I guess this is the only result. But I digress..


THX created a wonderful and perfect analogy of "reputation" within its narrative, and despite trying to break out of it, you instead stay within its sheep filled idealogy because you want the "word" of yours to reach. As with PT fans, some of you cannot break the same narrative.

Useless.

 

Oh oh... look who woke up on the wrong side of the fandom today...



Love ya Ezon!

 

If only there were a such thing in sides within fandoms....

 

If you did you did. I don't see that at all. I see the characters not the actors. I don't get this conflation of the two. The actors are doing exactly what the film-maker wants then that is all that can be asked of them and they hit it note perfect. So it's not the execution that is the problem but doing it at all in the first place.

I found it convincing on it's face from the start. Maybe it's because I knew from the get go what Lucas was driving at in terms of the whole Republic Serials/silent film/old movies romance style that Star Wars has always used. I was a particular fan of these so I recognized the source material. It's Space Opera and the PT takes that to another level as the OT was operatic but more Space Adventure overall.

Now that was on the face of it. Once I started getting the details of Lucas' thoughts then it became even better than I already thought it was.

Is it awkward as hell sometimes? Yes. Does it play against the "proper" way to do it? Yes. Is it ultra-corny? Sure is.

Yes. Already in love before the movie starts. Now Lucas could have easily done this for AOTC because Anakin and Padme are both on Coruscant. It'd be easy enough to create backstory that they had been crossing paths the previous couple of years since Padme became a Senator. He didn't do that because he already did it before in TESB.

Of course that is the case but it's easy enough to also put a "creepy" spin on it if you want to. Is it really the case here? No but neither is it the case with Anakin and Padme but it's still done regardless of Han's actions actually being far more "creepy" and invasive. Leia says hands off but Han still keeps coming because "he knows"

I always find it odd that people love to talk about the Force in these movies but with Anakin we have a child of the Force itself and then it's like the Force doesn't exist. Anakin dreamed of being a Jedi. He's a Jedi. He certainly must dream of Padme who ends up becoming his wife. He dreams of his mother in pain and that comes true and then later he dreams of Padme dying in childbirth and believes that will happen unless he does something.

Yes because those stalker guys really want to marry the girl and be the husband and respect and admire them. Oh wait no they don't. They want them as object of sexual desire. That clearly is not what is driving Anakin. Look how respectful he is of her. Once she tells him to come to the real world he accepts it.

ROFL! I mean really? Lucas put that line in there for a reason. Why does anyone seriously believe that it's about Padme being "creeped" out?

If that were the case then the entire story in the movie would be totally different and they wouldn't have ever got together. She was uncomfortable because of the feelings she felt toward Anakin. It's odd how that is alright for Leia to be uncomfortable and all is OK and not "creepy" but Padme does the same kind of thing and it's a problem.

The script is even more "corny". Why do Leia and Han fall in love? We don't know they just do. Why do Anakin and Padme fall in love? We don't know they just do.

ANAKIN
Don't be afraid.

PADMÉ
I'm not afraid to die. I've been
dying a little bit each day since
you came back into my life.

ANAKIN
What are you talking about?

PADMÉ
I love you.

ANAKIN
You love me?! I thought we
decided not to fall in love. That
we would be forced to live a lie.
That it would destroy our lives...

PADMÉ
I think our lives are about to be
destroyed anyway. My love for you
is a puzzle, Annie, for which I
have no answers. I can't control
it... and now I don't care. I
truly, deeply love you, and before
we die I want you to know.

PADME leans toward ANAKIN. By straining hard, it is just possible for
their lips to meet. They kiss.

ANAKIN
I have no desire to be cured of
this love either. Long or short,
I vow to spend the rest of my life
with you.

 

It's not even about being creepy, although that certainly didn't help, just like his killing spree didn't make Padme's affections more believable. It's simply what I percieve to be the complete lack of chemistry between the two actors, while reciting IMO some of the most terrible cliche love dialogue I ever heard. The addition of Padme's ever more revealing outfits made the entire sequence seem surreal. So, in the end it's not about Han being a chauvinist pig, but the fact that I believe he's a chauvinist pig, whereas with Anakin and Padme I see two actors struggling to portray two characters falling in love.

 

While I agree about the lack of chemistry I just want to add.the below


Storywise you could argue it's two people who have very little experience with romance falling in love. Padme's had one or two Boyfriends(Paolo, the artists she mentions in the films, and possibly Rush Clovis per the Clone Wars cartoon). She spent her early teen years running a planet and then her twenties as a Senator. She is apparently something of a workaholic per the depiction of her in the clone wars. She has a bit more exprience than Anakin but not much.

Anakin by AOTC has spent the first nine years of his life as a slave and the next ten as a member of a monastic order of peacekeeper who do not allow romantic relationships. He has zero exprience in romantic matters.

In short, their being awkward is in some ways believable given their circumstances.

 

So if Anakin had been actually "creepy" like Han then it would have been better for you?

If Anakin is creepy then what does that make Han?

Anakin comes on to Padme in a way that denotes that he has little idea what to do and Padme's reaction denotes she has little idea what to do in response.

I keep going back to what the movie is telling us. Padme sees Anakin for the first time in 10 years and now he is this incredibly handsome man. Her first reaction is to try to make him the little boy of her memory. She is uncomfortable because she is feeling something towards him. She tells him so again because he talks about how she has noticed he's grown up and he knows she is noticing.

That is where he uncomfortable feelings come from. Not from him being "creepy". If that was the case then she wouldn't act the way she does from then on. On the waterfront as he leans in she accepts the kiss then turns away not out of creepiness but because she feels the same but as per what we know of her she is being the professional Senator which is something that obviously has been holding back any romance she could have with anyone.

It's like people would be happier if Anakin pressed himself on her like Han did to Leia. More likely then they would cite him for harassment they don't towards Han.

It's not the actors. They are hitting all the notes right on. It's the characters are "struggling" to fall in love.

I don't think that is an argument but evident in the movie.

I don't know how more evident it can be. So once again what we are really talking about is not execution but inception. Lucas knew that some people would likely reject it as "most terrible cliche love dialogue I ever heard".

 

Wrong, the execution IS the problem, at least to me.
You don't see the problem but I do.

And that they are doing what Lucas wanted.
That is no excuse, I am sure Jeremy irons in Dungeons and Dragons did what the director wanted but it was over the top as all **** and so bad it was funny.
I am sure that Thora Birch in the same movie also did what the director asked but her performance was so wooden and stiff that you would mistake her for an Ent.

What it had primarily had to do was to convince me that they were in love, if it fails at that, and to me it did, then the rest doesn't matter.
If you eat at a restaurant and you don't like the food, will you care what kind of plates they serve it on?

Anakin was already in "love" with Padme before the film starts.
I say love but lust came more to my mind.
And that didn't come off as natural, he has spent ten years obsessing over a girl he met for a few days when he was nine and now he can't stop thinking about her.
What does he love about Padme? He doesn't know her now, they met ten years ago and he hasn't seen or spoken to her since.
Han and Leia has spent a lot of time together and thus they know each other.
Han a little better than Leia.

And I wouldn't have a problem with having the love story develop onscreen. But the problem is that the "love story" that I saw was so faked and forced that it didn't work. The actors couldn't convince me of the feelings they said they had.
And when the more they say they are in love and it doesn't work, the more fake it seems.

So Anakin already has his love in place before the film starts and then we should see Padme growing to love him. But the problem is that he does so many things that are off-putting to me that her suddenly declaring her love for him is forced. It happened because the plot needed it to happen, it didn't grow naturally and organically from the film.

Really?
What does Anakin do?
He spends ten years obsessing over a girl he met when he was nine.
His stares makes her uncomfortable to the point where she risks death to avoid them.
He murders women and children in a violent rage.
So yeah, I do see Anakin as way more creepy than Han in ESB.

Han is pushy and assumes too much, sorry if that doesn't creep me out as much as killing children.

Maybe dreaming wasn't the right word, fantasizing is probably better.
Or obsessing. He has thought about her for every day for the past ten years, he says so.
And when he talks about his bad dreams about his mother he says that he would rather dream about Padme. This sounds a lot like a guy that wants to have dreams about a hot girl.

So the Force is not really a part of this.
Anakin has been thinking of Padme for ten years and to me this doesn't sound healthy.

Speaking just for myself, if I met a girl that I knew back in school and hasn't seen or spoken to her since and she said that has thought about me every day for the past decade, then I might be a little flattered but also a bit creeped out.
If she then admitted that she killed a whole bunch of people, including women and children, I would very likely be even more scared.

But to give the movie credit, Anakin is supposed to be a person that has difficulty in letting go, so in that sense, his thinking of Padme fits his character.

Well I saw sexual desire in AotC Anakin. I saw a horny guy that wanted to get into Padme's pants. Maybe not what Lucas intended but I got that vibe from Anakin.
In RotS he is doing all manner of horrible things so that he won't loose her. She is something he wants to posses, to own. He isn't doing this for her sake, but for his.
So in that regard, AotC worked well as it set up how far Anakin will go to avoid loosing things.

And speaking of those stalker guys, they do terrible things, even murder to get the girl to love them, to posses the girl they desire.
And what does Anakin do, he commits mass murder, including women and children and after that, he gets the girl the he desires.
So looking at in a very basic way, he tried to be charming and woo her, that didn't work.
He went kill crazy and killed men, women and children and now Padme wants to marry him.
So then it is not so strange that he kills children in RotS to keep her alive.
She didn't object last time.

Again, I don't think that is what Lucas intended but it was an unfortunate side effect of the events in the film. Padme brushes off Anakin going on a homicidal rampage and then marries the guy.
That became a lot to buy, esp with her being a character with a strong moral code.
Either Anakin hides the truth from her or she has a somewhat stronger reaction.
Or he doesn't kill the children, he stops himself before going that far.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah he put the line in for a reason, what reason was that?
Padme's life is in danger, someone is out to kill her and she has cameras in her room for PROTECTION.
But she turns them off and the reason we get is;

So Padme prefer to risk her own life rather than have Anakin look at her.
How else was I supposed to read that scene if not to think that Padme didn't like Anakin looking at her?
And given that the stakes is her own life, I have to think that the dislike is pretty damn high for her to do this. If someone was out to kill me and I knew that cameras would help, I wouldn't turn them off just because I didn't want someone to look at me in my underwear.

Plus the whole scene is dumb as the cameras should be pointed at the window as that is the most likely direction of an attack. And she should have cameras outside the window too.
And it is also dumb because if Zam had not been a moron and used a more direct weapon like a gun, bomb or gas, Padme would be dead.

And there is a later scene where Padme asks Anakin not to look at her in that way as it makes her uncomfortable. So we have two scenes where Padme is unnerved by how Anakin looks at her.

Maybe Lucas didn't intend for that to be the reaction but that is what I got.

Lastly, that they got together in the end is no excuse, in fact given all the other things, it just makes it worse.
And that is the problem that some people have, that Padme falls for Anakin, given all the things he said and did, most can not see why she loves the guy.
So the romance become Forced and Fake. It has to happen because of plot reasons and it feels fake because the two actors failed to sell it.

If it worked for you, great, it didn't work for me and others.
And it had nothing to do with preconceived ideas or expecting something different.
In fact, that there would be a romance was one of the thing that most that had seen the OT first DID expect.
And given TPM, it was pretty obvious that Padme was going to be the mother of Luke and Leia.
So people were ready for a romance but the reason why it failed for those people was the writing, the directing and the acting.
The actors could not convince me that they were in love and the dialogue they said sounded so forced and fake that it made me roll my eyes several times.
Add to that the other stuff that Anakin did that made him even more off-putting to me, being an unlikable mass murderer, that made it even worse.

You could say that Han is too forward and too pushy but the actors were at least able to sell the emotions, they made me believe that they were in love and it all worked.
Had that happened in AotC then maybe the other stuff that Anakin did might not have bothered me that much. But they didn't and it did.

End of story.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

For you and others that is correct.

Not me.

I can survive and thrive in AOTC.

I see the problem that you perceive.

I just don't agree that it actually is one.

Excuse for some not liking it?

I would say that the "excuse" is for those who as Lucas said simply won't accept it.

But they weren't in love. It's about them falling in love. They aren't actually "in love" until the end when oh BTW they get married.

I wouldn't say so. He was in love maybe with the ideal of Padme but then had to meet the actual person.

This lust angle just doesn't work at all. That would be a whole different story angle.

Exactly. This is rather the point Lucas makes and the difference between the two relationships.

Alright then. That isn't my reaction at all as you know.They clearly have little to no idea about what they are doing and are trying to square that with their professional lives.

His fantasy of love which was gone over in the movie. When confronted with the reality he knows it would destroy them as does she. Then they set that aside because it looks like they will be destroyed anyway and once they take the path they don't go back.

"It happened because the plot needed it to happen" is the ultimate answer for everything though. That is the answer for Leia and Han which simply thrusts it on the audience at the start of TESB.

Are you saying the best way for you to accept Anakin and Padme's love as "natural and organic" is for it to happens off-screen between movies where it's a plot move? It's not that Star Wars doesn't do that. Luke and the good in his father was between movies. Both Anakin and Luke have huge changes between movies that are not actually covered in the movies themselves. We are simply presented with these changes and then have to find some threads that Lucas leaves that we either accept or don't.

Seriously? Han obsessing over Leia as a grown man is fine but imagine a young boy thinking about a girl? I mean that never happens!

What is this risk death? Let's not get into the whole Tusken thing again here.

So if Anakin had done what Han did you'd be fine with it?

I don't think so.

Not a hot girl. An angel. Anakin's love for Padme is not simply sexual conquest driven. It clearly is not so why people try to place that spin on it is baffling. He is in love with Padme not simply lust. If that was the case then the entire story tract would be different.

With Anakin the Force is always part of him. He is a child of the Force.

Well now I don't recall saying it was healthy. It's a call sign to Anakin's very unhealthy attachments that will ultimately be his downfall.

Over and again I say to people that Anakin and Padme's romance IS wrong. It's bad for both of them. It should not happen. Lucas himself says she fell in love with the wrong guy.

Exactically!

OK then. I don't because that path would lead to a different result. One more in line really with Han but I guess you don't get that vibe from him?

Yes.

No. He already has her love. He wants to save her life. His selfishness leads to have her not as a true love as in AOTC or ROTS before his turn to the possession and as an object.

Why do people think Lucas did this with no purpose? He clearly did have one which has all been gone over many times.

So what we are really talking about is that some didn't accept what Lucas was doing because to them it was the wrong thing to do.

He had Anakin kill the Tusken women and children for a reason and have him tell Padme about it. This is intentional on his part.

People have been talking about it for 15 years now and we are still talking about it.

Again we've been talking about it for years. We full well know how Lucas worked in the prequels. There is the text and the subtext.

Now this is just getting into useless story detailing. We can shred and rip apart every movie ever if we start applying this method.

It's a good thing the Star Destroyers don't have hangar doors or that escape pods they don't want to escape can pass through the vacuum shield or R2 and 3PO would have never been able to escape! If Luke hadn't been so dumb as to detach R2's restraining bolt then the entire story ends with him and the Lars dead and the plans recovered etc etc etc.

Exactly. Then what happens later when Anakin is also looking at her on the lake? She accepts his advance and kisses him.

So combining all of those (plus other things later) what does that tell us?

That Padme is attracted to Anakin and she is uncomfortable that she is attracted to him.

If she is the "creeped out" person that for some reason others see then her reaction on the lake makes no sense at all. She should still be "creeped out"

So the question is why fight the story as presented and try to over-ride it with an alternate version which is not presented in the movie itself?

I can't agree at all. The two actors absolutely sold the story that Lucas wanted to tell. It's just that for whatever reason some people didn't want the story to be that way.

As is so often the case with the PT as we have seen time and time again there are those who want their story not Lucas' story.

The story of Anakin and Padme's romance is ultimately that Padme was right the first time. The right and proper thing to do was to NOT fall in love. That was the right thing.

The wrong thing was to give into it because it would destroy them...and it did.

This of course is very much against the way that these things are supposed to go. Lucas turned the whole thing upside down. Not falling in love is supposed to be the WRONG thing and falling in love is supposed to be the RIGHT thing.

The actors sell this terrifically but that is in cinematic grammar "wrong".

The journey of Anakin and Luke are inverse in this case though the inversion has to be between Anakin and Leia since Luke doesn't fall in love with anyone.

Leia and Han getting together was right to Anakin and Padme's wrong. It's part of Anakin's fall,

I find that difficult to buy. If Lucas had done a traditional by the numbers romance in the common form having the actors do the common thing (which he certainly could have if he chose to) then I don't think that basic version is a problem.

He went out of his way to make it clearly different as he himself has said.

Which is fine for them as this is all subjective. For myself and others the writing, directing and acting was a success.

What we know objectively is that Lucas, a genius storyteller of all-time, was very happy with how it all turned out full well realizing that some might not buy it.

Just as Lucas predicted some might. So he was not shocked at all that it didn't work for some.

I always find this interesting. Vader was a likeable mass murderer but as Anakin he is an unlikable mass murderer.

If Lucas was all about likable characters then Star Wars would be a VERY different story with different characters.

I am sold on both romances and it all works and it should.

Which is not that they should both be the same.

Sorry but we have totally different takes. As I say over and again I don't look at the Star Wars saga as anything but Lucas' story.

He presents it and in his telling I enjoy finding what are his meanings as opposed to ones that I want them to be.

So I don't and can't find Anakin creepy as Padme clearly doesn't otherwise her falling in love makes no sense. Obviously she doesn't find Anakin creepy and does fall in love with him.

She does think it's a mistake. When she stops thinking THEN she does it.

Like Qui-Gon said to Anakin "Feel. Don't think."

 

Full disclosure, I've always disliked the AOTC romance (among many other things). If some enjoy it and think it works, that's perfectly fine. I do find the apologetics, if inventive, to be thin and unconvincing. I suspect some are trying to come up with reasons to like something which doesn't work emotionally as it should (not necessarily anything wrong with that), but I can't really prove that at this stage.

What is clear from what I've read is that Lucas was trying to create dialogue that was a bit hokey, inspired by older films. There is a lot of genre mashup going on in all of Star Wars (ANH has fairy tale, western, samurai film and adventure serial influences) and AOTC is no different. We have noir detective elements, we have the 50s diner and we have cornball romances. I don't get the sense that he did it to characterize Padme and Anakin as complete romance noobs. If he did, I don't think it comes across. We don't see Anakin or Padme in any other romantic contexts (excepting what we get 10+ years after AOTC in TCW) which would give us a clue as to how savvy they are in this domain of life. So much of what we are seeing in the scenes in question is speculative at best.

 

I always liked it emotionally from the start and believe me I wasn't thinking about it in the way I have over the years because I didn't know all or explore all the facets of it.

To me it came just as simply as liking anything in the OT. My emotional reaction to all the movies was always these are awesome.

 

Anakin is clearly a "complete romance noob." I don't know how you could possibly come to any other conclusion about that.

Padme isn't so much. But she also doesn't act the same way as Anakin during the love story.

I can assure you that I genuinely think the romance works exactly as intended. I know my own mind better than you, I suspect.

 

More a general note, but whatever...

I like how various people watch AOTC -- and still complain about it -- with the assumption that everything in it, especially the romance, be judged against a "normal", "common sense", "every day" standard.

Take Anakin courting Padme. It never seems to be noticed that this might be romance "Star Wars" (meaning: George Lucas) style. Golden Age, medieval, THX-y, a long time ago, etc. It's like everyone has one map; the same map; the map of the present day. And the only markings on the map are the markings everyone else agrees on; while all the time holding the map (a map no less -- not the territory itself) to be accurate and even complete. "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist."

Extending that metaphor above, you might say that the romance, like everything else in the picture, has a "hidden city" aspect to it; and the only way to find that hidden city is to "go to the centre of gravity's pull". Which means, to notice and pay good attention to the cumulative effects of the melodramatic hooks Lucas uses in the movie and the other ones; to notice, perhaps, Vader boasting in ANH that "The circle is now complete" and "When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master"; and Obi-Wan's stilted response: "Only a master of evil, Darth." The Kaminoans build their cities on stilts. No, but what I really mean is, AOTC is sort of being "pulled" in the direction of the original (and vice versa); and both -- all the movies -- are being pulled toward these more esoteric qualities, the hidden qualities underpinning everything, that the artist wanted to (abstractly) get across and explore. To put it more simply, if Obi-Wan can deride Vader so cheesily in the original confrontation they have, how wildly unbelievable can a melodramatic romance between two lonely characters, in a quasi-high-society/historical setting (the backstory to that confrontation and the ecosystem it exists within) really be?

Also: Anakin. And by Anakin, I really mean Anakin. His name could literally be "nothing akin" ("nothing like this"); with his nearest equivalent (paradox) being the specially-modified (and stylishly piloted) Millennium Falcon; the "piece of junk" radical outsider of the OT. Just as the Falcon is something that transports, strips down, lays bare, and breaks apart the decayed world order, so Anakin pursues Padme in subtle, sneaky ways; in ways that no other "ship" (shape/person/persona) really could; ways that aren't necessarily non-awkward, but which have a particular "stylish awkwardness" or Force-enhanced -- or romantically awkward -- guile to them. Like when he gets up in her face, all bossy, yet softly says, "Why not?"; challenging Padme after she tells him, "Please don't look at me like that". He could be running a bit of a simulation on her; testing her, pushing her buttons, prodding her, seeing what useful pieces fall out. After all, he becomes Darth Vader, does he not? I am not saying that Anakin is a villain in AOTC (I think I would rather argue against that dreary complaint: the complaint "with a thousand faces"), but rather, that he is quite tactical in what he does, never quite doing the same thing twice; and relying on his proficiency with the Force to guide him and tell him things; bringing him closer to where he wants to be. Obi-Wan wistfully tells Luke (and the audience) in ANH that Anakin was "a cunning warrior"; and so you might say that he actually displays a subtle cunning in trying to woo the girl of his dreams. It might not be smooth, or graceful, or urbane; but he does have a way about him. A way that ultimately unlocks feelings within Padme's own heart. So -- job done?

In this regard, in fact, Anakin's endearing dorkishness around Padme might actually be summed up by the "mission accomplished" result of the pursuit itself: a poetic summation of the "if it works" mentality Anakin seems to display throughout the picture and his whole life. His tactics are therefore, seen this way, highly underrated; perhaps much like (I believe this is what I'm trying to argue) the love story itself. It works; so it works! There's always this comedy aspect to everything in Star Wars. The presentation may be big, operatic, expensive, and glossy; but the signature of each movie remains comedic in nature; there is, in other words, a marvellous sensibility about all the characters, about the world, and about conscious beings in general all through the saga, front-to-end, inside-and-out. So, to keep to a "character" reading of AOTC, via Anakin, there could be a bit more purpose and an internal, self-constructing architecture -- a jazzy melody -- to Anakin's pursuit than is commonly perceived. His ruder or cruder moments are merely part of a tapestry of the epic Force artist that is Anakin Skywalker. He doesn't believe in treading easily; he wants to rile his targets up a bit. Consider how he addresses Zam in the alley: "Tell us..." (softly recalibrating Obi-Wan's forceful "And who hired you?"; and earning a quizzical look from Obi-Wan); followed by a pushy, angry, and slightly wild "TELL US NOW!" This bit of baiting/strategy gives one a way in; it allows one to perceive that there is something of a method, a schema which Anakin pursues *in* his pursuit of Padme. But people act like there's nothing else going on; no inner structure. It's always the surface that is focused on and derided; as if no inner qualities -- thematic tapestries, poetic subtext, or personal strategizing by any of the characters -- actually exist; in a fantasy world pervaded by the Force. I won't hold to that view. I don't.

 

Ok.

 

Well, I'm glad you can enjoy it. Obviously we have different metrics for quality and ways of processing cinema.

 

How could I come to any other conclusion? There's so much space between TPM and AOTC. We don't know who else he's run into in this time. I get the whole idolazation of Padme and his history, I just don't necessarily buy that he'd never have any other romantic feelings for anyone else during that time and have such awful romance skills. Sure, he's cloistered, but there aren't any cute female padawans? (We know there are.) My biggest problem is that he's so devoid of charm that why she likes him is a mystery. People can see through awkwardness and ham-handed come-ons if there is good intent and character behind them. With Anakin, that's all he has. And the acting and scripting doesn't help...but we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

 

I think Anakin is quite charming, in his own one-part-awkward, one-part-bad-boy way. I'm curious, have you ever watched any of the films of James Dean's oeuvre? Christensen's Anakin has the same sort of half-discomforting charm James Dean does in his movies (and that's by design). Many people with what I would describe as unyieldingly modern sensibilities tend to find James Dean's classic performances off-putting in a similar way as they do Hayden Christensen's, and I can't really argue with that as it's a matter of taste, but James Dean is a film legend all the same, and there's a reason for that. It's because no one else did what he was doing, or even could do what he was doing....until Hayden Christensen under the directorial guidance of George Lucas, that is.

At the very least, I would like people to understand that George Lucas knew exactly what he was doing and got exactly what he wanted out of Hayden Christensen. Anakin Skywalker was acted and scripted exactly as Lucas intended for him to be. He didn't fail to do anything except when it came to pleasing everybody, which is impossible.

 

Meh, Lucas may have wanted to pay hommage to the James Dean classics, but IMO he did not succeed. I also feel Hayden Christensen does not have the acting chops of James Dean. There's a reason James Dean is viewed as a screen legend, and Hayden Christensen is struggling to make it these days (I hope Hayden succeeds by the way). However, he's no James Dean, and AOTC is not Rebel without a Cause.

 

I have seen Rebel Without A Cause and I agree with everything Dr Dre said. No ill will on my part towards Hayden or Lucas, I just think they could have done much better. I think what you said is very telling -- you would like people to understand that George Lucas knew exactly what he was doing. You're a Lucas apologist, yes? Of course you're free defend him and his work, but just to sort of stick to the thread topic, the reason the prequels in part are criticized is that Anakin didn't connect with audiences and George Lucas struggles mightily to communicate his ideas. It's why the Original Trilogy feels so different from the Prequel Trilogy, IMO, and why the prequels have engendered negativity in the way the OT did not. Lucas had so much more of a struggle and input from others on the OT. And I think art benefits a lot from multiple contributions, and it's better to acknowledge that than to defend the idea of a genius who had a vision, and when they fail, well, that's just that the audience doesn't get it. The whole point is that art is a conversation between creator and audience, so if a large part of the audience is understanding or following along, it's an issue. Nevertheless, I don't think there is any way I can talk you out of your position, which is primarily to defend Lucas, so we might as well leave it there.

 

Even if someone likes them, how do you not see it? They aren't very well made movies – particularly the last two. They are awful. As for the prequels overall, take your pick. Kid Anakin, adult Anakin ( who was worse IMO
), the awful love story, the bad performances from actors who are capable of more (Portman, Jackson, McGregor), downright bad special effects in parts two and three, overly choreographed fight sequences, the poor job of connecting with the original movies – there is literally an endless supply of criticism for these movies.

 

overly choreographed fight sequences is a complaint that I hear so much and just don't get. Have you ever watched an Asian movie's fight scenes? Nobody really fights like that...yet many of them are enjoyable because the have some visual flair. I think the prequel saber battles are similar.

 

Lucas apologist? Sounds like you lack a good amount of self awareness if we are going on that route. TPC said that he didn't think Lucas failed at all, and that it would be impossible to please everyone so of course there would be people in disagreements.

You know what I think? I think Lucas never failed with the prequels. No one should be called blinded because they never thought a person failed.

This thread man...I just don't get why you folk keep returning.