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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why Are The PT Films criticized? (catch-all thread)

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Seagoat, Jan 17, 2016.

  1. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    How does the start of AOTC shows Anakin was a bad seed exactly? To me his behavior before the Tusken massacre wasn't any worse than any other people who have problems with authority.
     
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  2. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    I knew you were agreeing with me, i was just clarifying my position. Sorry if there was any confusion.. as for Dre.. well, I don't see his posts anymore....;)
     
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  3. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    How wude... Doesn't matter Mike, I know you're ignoring me, and I'm honored to be on your ignore list, but I will rant on as usual, even if I'm the only one reading my posts...
     
  4. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Well considering he did become a mass murdering psychopath, I think we really should have seen more than the glimpses of heroism we finally saw in ROTS. Anakin doesn't show many good traits in AOTC before the Tusken massacre. He's angry, obsessive, arrogant, and ultimately self-serving, going so far as to "joke" about preferring a dictatorship (if it works?). These are hardly the qualities of a good Jedi knight, or a hero, tragic or not. More like fertile ground for the dark side. Some here describe Anakin as a tragic hero, but the hero part is sorely underdeveloped IMO.
     
  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Interesting how you accuse me of not being able to tell the difference between subjective and objective when you state your opinion as FACT time and time again.
    Davy Jones is a tragic character, you state that as objective truth. No "In my opinion" there.

    And I did say "TO ME" and explained why it didn't work TO ME.

    Tell me, is Mola Ram a tragic figure?
    Can Indy 2 be subtitled "The tragedy of Mola Ram"?
    He dies a rather nasty death and the cause he has been working on for a number of years is destroyed. So tragic right?

    I don't agree.


    And again you keep using bad examples.
    Snape in the first book, is at the start nasty and unpleasant and we are meant to think he is the villain and indeed the character do think this.
    At the end we learn that he was not and he was in fact trying to save Harry's life.
    That is a positive aspect to him.
    We also learn in later books that he did work for Voldemort but turned against him and yet he kept up the front of being a loyal death eater. So he is shown to be brave.
    We also get bits and pieces of his younger life and that of Harry's dad and we learn that Harry's dad was quite mean to him. This shakes both Harry's and the audience perception of James.

    There was the question in the first six books if Snape really had become good like Dumbledore said or if he had fooled him as well.
    For me it was not much doubt, he was a good person. To do otherwise would seriously harm Dumbledore's judgement.
    And Dumbledore always trusted him, that was a massive vote of confidence to me.
    His death scene is both book and film were really good.

    They carried far more weight than the death of Davy Jones and were more effective, TO ME!

    His past is quite important and explains much of his motivations and actions.
    Why he turned against Voldemort, his love for Lily and how that was the one thing Voldemort could not see or understand and thus why he was able to fool him for all this time.

    As for the audience not liking or caring about him, wrong! Both Snape/Rickman were and are very popular with both readers and viewers. He had many unlikable traits but also things that people liked or were intrigued by.
    Rickman played him very well and he did know some things that readers of the book didn't know at the time.

    I would say that Snape as example serves my case better than yours.
    Here we have a character with many bad sides, unlikable traits and yet he is very popular with the audience. I poll I saw had him as the second most popular HP character.
    Clearly something was done well here, at least to many in the audience.
    They liked Snape, despite it all.

    Another Harry Potter example, Draco Malfoy.
    In the first five books, he is a rather one-note character. A jerk to Harry and his friends, pretty much a racist against muggle-born and all his schemes pretty much comes to nothing.
    Tragic?
    First five books I would not say so. A pathetic, unpleasant, whiny looser, I would say.

    The sixth and seventh book thankfully did something more with this character and I liked it as he became more interesting and not such a one-note d-nozzle.
    The book/play the Cursed Child at first had him back to him being a jerk but fleshed him out in the second part and made him a better character.

    The sixth book also added more layers to the Malfoy family, that Draco's mother did love her son.
    The fall from grace of his father and why they turned against Voldemort at the end.


    [/QUOTE]

    Is Palpatine a tragic character?
    He has flaws, his over confidence, which proves his undoing.
    Is Tarkin? He is arrogant and underestimates his opponents, which is his undoing.
    Is Jabba, Greedo, Maul, Ozzel?

    For a character's demise to be in some ways tragic to the audience, it has to be something that they don't want to happen to this character.
    That they are in some ways invested in the character.
    If they don't care at all about the character, why would they care if he/she dies?

    Take Joffery in GoT, flaws? Oh yes!
    Was his death seen as tragic by the audience?
    I would think that many cheered at his death.

    Or take Loki in the first Avengers and the first Thor film.
    In the Avengers, Loki is very much just the villain. He sneers and taunts the heroes, does bad things and when Hulk smashes him, the audience cheers.
    Why?
    Because watching him get his comeuppance was satisfying.
    In the first Thor film, he has more layers and there is something tragic about him and that he chooses to fall to his seeming death doesn't create the same feelings as Hulk smashing him.

    @Slicer87
    I disagree about Anakin. What he wanted was to spare himself the agony of loosing Padme.
    So his motivations were very selfish. He was willing to let others suffer and die so he could get what he wanted.
    I do not see him his actions as benefitting Padme as much as himself.
    He must have known that she would never approve of what he did even if she knew it could save her life. Yet he still did it.
    And as Dr Dre said, the motivations between Snape and Anakin are very different.

    Anakin wants possession of Padme, to keep him at his side. And he flips out and tries to kill her when she rejects his methods.
    Would Anakin have given up his own life to save Padme?
    If Palpatine told him, "Yes you can save her, but for it to work, you have to die."
    Would he have accepted that?
    I am not so sure.

    Snape was in some ways like Anakin after RotS, both had lost their love. And Snape, who had turned good, stayed good and agreed to work for Dumbledore and plan for the possibility of Voldemort returning. Voldemort was gone and while Dumbledore said he would come back, Snape has had his revenge really. Voldemort had fallen from power.
    Working with Harry must have been a constant reminder of his loss, that the woman he loved, had chosen the man he really despised. But he still did it, being a massive **** not withstanding.

    Anakin? He too had lost everything and yet he kept working for Palpatine and doing evil upon evil.
    He did turn back once Luke managed to reach his heart and showed that he did still care and showed him that the dark side can be rejected.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  6. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    he carries Padme's bags doesn't he , what more do you want ? :p
     
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  7. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I have a different opinion of him. He acted awkwardly whenever Padme was around, trying his hardest to impress the lady. Arrogant? Definitively but he also deeply cared about people close to him even if they have arguments (Obi-Wan), his concerns for his mother. He's definitively not a perfect hero who never fails at anything.
     
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  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Is Palpatine a tragic character?
    He has flaws, his over confidence, which proves his undoing.
    Is Tarkin? He is arrogant and underestimates his opponents, which is his undoing.
    Is Jabba, Greedo, Maul, Ozzel?

    For a character's demise to be in some ways tragic to the audience, it has to be something that they don't want to happen to this character.
    That they are in some ways invested in the character.
    If they don't care at all about the character, why would they care if he/she dies?

    Take Joffery in GoT, flaws? Oh yes!
    Was his death seen as tragic by the audience?
    I would think that many cheered at his death.

    Or take Loki in the first Avengers and the first Thor film.
    In the Avengers, Loki is very much just the villain. He sneers and taunts the heroes, does bad things and when Hulk smashes him, the audience cheers.
    Why?
    Because watching him get his comeuppance was satisfying.
    In the first Thor film, he has more layers and there is something tragic about him and that he chooses to fall to his seeming death doesn't create the same feelings as Hulk smashing him.

    @Slicer87
    I disagree about Anakin. What he wanted was to spare himself the agony of loosing Padme.
    So his motivations were very selfish. He was willing to let others suffer and die so he could get what he wanted.
    I do not see him his actions as benefitting Padme as much as himself.
    He must have known that she would never approve of what he did even if she knew it could save her life. Yet he still did it.
    And as Dr Dre said, the motivations between Snape and Anakin are very different.

    Anakin wants possession of Padme, to keep him at his side. And he flips out and tries to kill her when she rejects his methods.
    Would Anakin have given up his own life to save Padme?
    If Palpatine told him, "Yes you can save her, but for it to work, you have to die."
    Would he have accepted that?
    I am not so sure.

    Snape was in some ways like Anakin after RotS, both had lost their love. And Snape, who had turned good, stayed good and agreed to work for Dumbledore and plan for the possibility of Voldemort returning. Voldemort was gone and while Dumbledore said he would come back, Snape has had his revenge really. Voldemort had fallen from power.
    Working with Harry must have been a constant reminder of his loss, that the woman he loved, had chosen the man he really despised. But he still did it, being a massive **** not withstanding.

    Anakin? He too had lost everything and yet he kept working for Palpatine and doing evil upon evil.
    He did turn back once Luke managed to reach his heart and showed that he did still care and showed him that the dark side can be rejected.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface[/quote]


    Isn't that exactly what Yoda and Obi warn Luke about going off to Bespin to save his friends even if it means destroying everything they fought for. Anakin initially did love Padme and did not want to lose her or their child. However, his fear of loss began to override this, then his desire for power to save Padme began to override his fear of loss. One of the problems with both Anakin and Luke is that they both did not stop to think or ask what the other person really wanted. Anakin attempted to save Padme even if it meant destroying everything she fought for, Luke nearly did the same thing as he risked being captured which jeopardized the war and the Jedi and destroy everything his friends fought for in an attempt to save them. Leia allowing Cheiwe to nearly choke Lando to death is very much like something Anakin would have done in a fit of anger. Like with their father, the twins' fear of loss (Luke fearing losing his friends, Leia's fear of losing her lover Han) began to bring out ugly, unwise, and selfish traits and behavior out of them. Luke endangering himself and their cause, Leia turning violent on those trying to help her.

    Snape was not all good or selfless. As long as Voldermont could return to power, Snape did not have his revenge. He only helped Harry because he loved his mother and did it over his love for her which is still selfish. Dumboledore also somewhat played Snape, using his love to lever him into his long plan and not quite telling him everything, like how Snape will have to die for the plan to work as the evil wand can only have one owner. Plus Snape did take his anger out of Harry's father on Harry several times and relunctantly helped him.
     
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  9. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013

    Isn't that exactly what Yoda and Obi warn Luke about going off to Bespin to save his friends even if it means destroying everything they fought for. Anakin initially did love Padme and did not want to lose her or their child. However, his fear of loss began to override this, then his desire for power to save Padme began to override his fear of loss. One of the problems with both Anakin and Luke is that they both did not stop to think or ask what the other person really wanted. Anakin attempted to save Padme even if it meant destroying everything she fought for, Luke nearly did the same thing as he risked being captured which jeopardized the war and the Jedi and destroy everything his friends fought for in an attempt to save them. Leia allowing Cheiwe to nearly choke Lando to death is very much like something Anakin would have done in a fit of anger. Like with their father, the twins' fear of loss (Luke fearing losing his friends, Leia's fear of losing her lover Han) began to bring out ugly, unwise, and selfish traits and behavior out of them. Luke endangering himself and their cause, Leia turning violent on those trying to help her.

    Snape was not all good or selfless. As long as Voldermont could return to power, Snape did not have his revenge. He only helped Harry because he loved his mother and did it over his love for her which is still selfish. Dumboledore also somewhat played Snape, using his love to lever him into his long plan and not quite telling him everything, like how Snape will have to die for the plan to work as the evil wand can only have one owner. Plus Snape did take his anger out of Harry's father on Harry several times and relunctantly helped him.[/quote]


    Sorry for the double post but I timed out on editing for a point I want to add.

    In a way, Anakin indeed did sacrifice his life in an attempt to save Padme like you suggested Vimes. He sacrificed the good man Anakin to become the evil monster Vader in order to gain the ability to cheat death. One of the biggest things Padme objected to was Anakin willingly becoming a monster and destroying the man she loved. She could not follow that path and destroy herself too. As Obi said in the OT, Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin, from a certain point of view. ROTS shows that view in all its ugliness. Later in ROTJ Anakin did sacrifice his life to save his son Luke.
     
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  10. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I think you're stretching the meaning of the word sacrifice somewhat.

    sacrifice: to give up something that is valuable to you in order to help another person.

    IMO Anakin did not want to help Padme. Anakin could not stand the idea of losing Padme. His main motivation is possessiveness not love, as Padme herself did not want Anakin to follow a path of tyranny in order to quell his fear for losing her, a selfish desire. Also Anakin doesn't view his path to the dark side as giving something up. In his mind he's gaining the power to save her life. It's all about gain for Anakin, even if it means others have to lose life and limb.

    So, in my view Anakin's story in the PT is not one of sacrifice. It's not until he gives up his life to help his son, that Anakin finally let's go of his selfish desires, and learns about the power of sacrifice.
     
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  11. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    I think it's true that Anakin's actions were motivated more by a selfish fear of loss than anything else (I wouldn't say the story of the PT overall is one of sacrifice), but I agree with Slicer87 that there is an element of self-sacrifice, in a way, in Anakin's choice. "What have I done?" He exclaims immediately after making his fateful decision. Despite his faults he did care, I believe, in the Jedi code and in his own integrity -- "I'm not the Jedi I should be" he frets earlier in the movie -- hardly the sign of a sociopath, who would care nothing for such things and who wouldn't lose sleep like this over their personal failings. I think on some level Anakin does understand that he is losing part of himself -- think of his silent tears on Mustafar -- but he eventually suppresses such feelings in favor of the delusions and self-justifications he makes to explain himself to Padme and Obi Wan.
     
  12. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015

    I agree he's not a complete sociopath, and he's aware that his desires are at odds with the Jedi way, and actually feels guilty about it to an extend, but even so self-sacrifice implies sacrificing one's interests, desires, etc., as for the good of another, which is the exact opposite of what Anakin is doing. He's doing it all for himself to satisfy his desires, wanting to be so powerful he can cheat death itself, and keep Padme with him at any cost. It's not about what Padme wants. It's about what he wants, and the galaxy has to suffer for it. I really can't see an element of self-sacrifice in that.
     
  13. Torib

    Torib Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    I think I pretty much agree with you. Looking from an outside perspective, I think it's clear that Anakin is acting out of greed and selfishness rather than truly thinking of what Padme herself would want. And yet in Anakin's own mind, I think he truly believes he's doing this for her, not himself. It's not a true, noble kind of self-sacrifice, no, but I think in his own mind he feels he's acting out of loyalty to Padme.
     
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  14. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Anakin believed stopping Padme from dying at any cost was helping her, he made the mistake of assuming for her. Anakin did not want to become a Sith, he did not want Mace to die, he did not want the Jedi order wiped out, but these desires were at odds with saving Padme, at least in his view which is why he sacrificed them.

    Anakin sacrifices his integrity and his soul to save Padme, even though she never asked him for it!

    There is a self sacrifice that he understands, he has to sacrifice his soul to the devil , the Sith master Sids. Not to mention Anakin was tricked into this situation and the decision was more of Sids than Anakin. He unwillingly sacrificed Mace when all he wanted to do was stop him from killing Palps but became a unwillingly accomplice to his murder, thus Sids removed options from Anakin. He ends up sacrificing his integrity, Jedi knighthood, Jedi ideals, his comrades, etc. One of the mistakes Anakin makes is not considering if Padme would want him to sacrifice everything including himself for her. The irony is Padme is also sacrificed as well as Vader's body, health, and potental. The darkside only takes and never gives. Luke nearly makes the same mistake in TESB by abandoning his training and risking himself and the galaxy to save his friends, not considering if his friends would want him to sacrifice himself and their cause for their lives.

    Basically Anakin assumed keeping Padme alive was a good enough cause in itself to sacrifice so much for and not consider what she wanted, Luke makes a similar mistake by going to Bespin. Its a mix of selfishness and unselfishness in both cases, but it should be completely unselfish which is what happens to both in ROTJ.
     
  15. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005


    ANAKIN GIVES HIMSELF TO THE DARK SIDE --> GIVES HIMSELF TO VADER
     
  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Yes, but in order for it to qualify as a sacrifice:

    1) He has to view it as a selling his soul to the devil, and while he initially appears to have doubt, he very quickly and pretty enthousiastically embraces his destiny, which undermines the sacrifice aspect in my book.

    2) More importantly, he has to do it to help another person. However, we've already established he's doing it to fulfill his own desires. He doesn't even consider Padme's point of view. He's not doing it for Padme or for love. He's doing it for himself, because he cannot let go of his fears.

    So, IMO in his own mind he's not giving up something valuable for someone else. He's gaining a power to fulfill his own desires. Ergo, in my view it is not sacrifice, as there's way too much selfishness for Anakin's actions to be defined as such.
     
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  17. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    It's a sacrifice (of a sort) -- you're just hung up on a particular "form" of it.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sacrifice


    Top definition:

    1.
    a. The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.
    b. A victim offered in this way.


    Anakin slaughters himself on Mustafar. He is mutilated and sets on fire --> like a human offering for the darkness of an entire galaxy.

    Even the musical track is called "The Immolation Scene".


    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/immolation

    1. To kill (an animal, for instance) as a religious sacrifice.
    2. To kill, especially by fire: "[The soldiers] are crushed under rocks, pierced by bullets, immolated by flamethrowers" (A.O. Scott).
    [Latin immolāre, immolāt-, to sacrifice, sprinkle with sacrificial meal : in-, on; see in-2 + mola, meal, millstone; see melə- in the Appendix of Indo-European roots.]



    A few more definitions of sacrifice really underline the point:

    v.tr.
    1. To offer as a sacrifice to a deity.
    2. To give up (one thing) for another thing considered to be of greater value.
    3. To sell or give away at a loss.
    4. To kill (an animal) for purposes of scientific research or experimentation.
    v.intr.
    1. To offer a sacrifice: The Greek warriors sacrificed to their gods.
    2. To make a sacrifice: parents sacrificing for their children.
    3. Baseball To make a sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly.



    1. a surrender of something of value as a means of gaining something more desirable or of preventing some evil
    2. a ritual killing of a person or animal with the intention of propitiating or pleasing a deity
    3. a symbolic offering of something to a deity
    4. the person, animal, or object surrendered, destroyed, killed, or offered
    5. a religious ceremony involving one or more sacrifices
    6. loss entailed by giving up or selling something at less than its value
    7. (Chess & Draughts) chess the act or an instance of sacrificing a piece
    vb
    8. to make a sacrifice (of); give up, surrender, or destroy (a person, thing, etc)
    9. (Chess & Draughts) chess to permit or force one's opponent to capture (a piece) freely, as in playing a combination or gambit: he sacrificed his queen and checkmated his opponent on the next move.



    Plenty of those definitions apply to what happens to Anakin in ROTS -- plenty!


    Moreover, the derivation of the word is also relevant:

    [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin sacrificium : sacer, sacred; see sacred + facere, to make; see dhē- in the Appendix of Indo-European roots.]



    Palpatine to Anakin on the Invisible Hand:

    "Leave him or we'll never make it."

    Anakin (via Palpatine's demiurge influence) as "The Maker" of C-3PO; the "maker" of his own robot destiny.



    Star Wars is a a colossal meditation on many matters. The first "colossus" of the big screen.
     
  18. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015

    I'm not hung up on a definition. Even in your definitions in order for it to be a sacrifice you have to be aware, you're giving up something valuable. I don't think Anakin pledging himself to Palpatine really fits the definition. He immediately accepts Palpatine's argument, that the Jedi are attempting a coup, and in fact are enemies of the Republic, including his former friend Obi-Wan. He clearly doesn't view his former life as valuable. In fact he's now convinced, that he was living a lie, and the Jedi are evil.
     
  19. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Well, you can say otherwise... but you are.

    Where does it say that in the definitions I provided?


    The basic storyline is...

    Anakin sacrifices himself, unwittingly, in order to gain greater power; to prove his worth to Padme -- and, under the increasing influence of the Dark Side, to prove himself superior to Obi-Wan.

    Sacrifices don't have to be conscious choices; let alone beneficial or morally-praiseworthy decisions. That's where you seem a little confused.

    The prequel trilogy puts a dark slant on various things people generally consider noble, virtuous, or good. It's generally referred to as a tragedy for this reason.

    Ergo, just as Luke goes through a "positive" Hero's Journey in the original trilogy, so Anakin, the father, goes through a negative or tragic one in the prequels.

    If there is an exchange that sums up Anakin's journey, it might be this one when Obi-Wan goes to see Padme to ascertain Anakin's whereabouts:

    OBI-WAN: He's in grave danger.
    PADME: From the Sith?!
    OBI-WAN: From himself.

    It's a rather apt reframing of the "Dagobah cave" vision, in my opinion; and something that applies to us all. As threatening, as dismal, and as difficult as the outside world is, the real struggle is the struggle against ourselves. That is the embodiment of Campbell's monomythic structure. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Star Wars. We must struggle with ourselves.

    You might even wish to retitle or re-think ROTS as "Revenge Of The Self"; as that exchange between Obi-Wan and Padme hints at. You can detect the influence of Buddhist strains of thought at work in the saga; especially from TESB onwards. Even the first film subtly articulates such ideas.

    For instance, the prologue to the 1976 novelization describes the downfall of the Republic as follows: "Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from the outside." And this is echoed in the film by a remark of Threepio's at the end of the in-movie prologue or prelude as the escape pod drifts away from the captured/entangled ships: "That's funny. The damage doesn't look as bad from out here."

    So, in a way, the other films all allude to the tragedy that occurs in the PT; and in ROTS more specifically. The way we tend to look at things; well, it ain't necessarily so. Sometimes, we need another "episode", another vantage point, to get a deeper/better/more-rounded sense of things. And ROTS sort of completes everything; in so far as anything can ever be considered complete. It is the missing punctuation mark to everything. "Blind we are if creation of this clone army tragedy we could not see."
     
  20. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Also Anakin's motivations change though the film as a result of his falling to the darkside. He starts out with a combination of genuine concern for Padme and fear of loss, and fear is the path to the darkside. As his fear takes over he descends into the darkside. Soon his fear consumes him and he grabs at the straw the Sith offer. Then that fear is replaced with the desire for the power of the Sith to cheat death and save Padme, then he further devolves to lusting for power for the sake of power as he is consumed by the darkside and sacrifices himself to it to become a monster. You can't just go to the darkside and learn its secrets, it is a rabbit hole that will consume you, its power comes with the price of sacrificing ones identity. Yes Anakin really did sell himself short to the Sith in an effort to prevent loss, and in doing so caused the very loss he was trying to prevent.
     
  21. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Yes. He jumps off the gangplank and falls into the Sarlacc monster, basically.

    Oh, actually, it's worse. He becomes the monster.

    "Good job!"
     
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  22. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Taking the red pill and never escaping the rabbit warren!
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012

    That Leia reacted with anger about Lando is quite natural I think.
    She had been tortured, at least that is what is implied.
    Lando was Han's friend and he sold him out.
    She had suffered abuse and loss for quite a while.
    Had she instantly forgiven him, it would have seemed unbelievable.
    And she does forgive him quite quickly all things considered.

    RE: Luke. He knows that Han and Leia are in Vaders hands and they are suffering.
    Padme is fine and healthy. Yes Anakin had dreams about Shmi that turned out to be true so that he fears his dreams about her is understandable.
    Still, to Luke, Leia and Han's fate are much more uncertain.

    And Yoda said that Luke could save them. With Anakin, he gave no such advice.
    Instead it is Palaptine that says that but later Anakin learns that Palaptine lied about a lot and Palpatine more or less admits that he doesn't have what he offered Anakin earlier. And yet Anakin doesn't react to that or considers the possibility that Palpatine is lying to him.

    It is quite interesting that Anakin's fear and worry caused the very thing he tried to avoid, the death of Padme.

    With Luke I think he knows the situation, Vader has Han and Leia as bait and he wants Luke to come.
    So Luke knows that if he doesn't come, Vader would most likely kill Han and Leia as then his trap had failed. Is Luke willing to let other people die just to keep him safe? I don't think so.
    In RotJ, he risks himself and Leia, Lando and others to save Han.
    Luke must have figured that going after Han would be something that Vader would anticipate and going to Tatooine could be as much of a trap as Bespin. Yet he goes.

    Later in RotJ he gives himself up to Vader, a foolish plan on the surface. He could get killed or worse.
    Luke, to me, is shown as willing to sacrifice himself to save others, in ESB it was Han and Leia. In RotJ is was his father. Yes you say that he was reckless in doing this, that he risked much by his actions.
    Anakin is less keen to sacrifice himself, at least in RotS. He wants to save himself agony and pain but has no problem with letting others suffer to get what he wants.

    As I've asked before, would Anakin be willing to die so that Padme could live?
    I am not sure, if he dies, he would still loose her. And loosing her was unthinkable to him.
    So I am not sure he would have accepted that.


    [/QUOTE]

    Snape is by no means all good, he is mean and spiteful. He carries grudges for a very long time and goes as far to punish children for the crimes of their fathers. As a fellow teacher, I would very much object to his bullying of some students while blatantly showering others with praise.

    He has some good qualities alongside plenty of bad ones.

    That Snape turned good over Lily's fate is important.
    He did try to plead with Voldemort, to spare her but that failed.
    So he asked Dumbledore to save all of them. Even James, whom he hated.
    His love for Lily was stronger than his hate for James.
    If they all lived, Lily would not come back to him but he preferred that to all of them dying.

    That he didn't want people to know what he did is curious.
    He must have known how people saw him. That most despised him or looked down on him.
    Dumbledore could change it but Snape didn't want that.


    [/QUOTE]

    As DrDre said, I think that Anakin did not intend to sacrifice himself to save Padme.
    When Palpatine gave the order to wipe out the Jedi, even the children, Anakin didn't hesitate and he seemed all for it. He agreed with Palpatine that the Jedi would try to kill senators or try some sort of coup. Which he would know is total BS. .
    The killing of the Jedi, had Anakin done that with an air of "I have to do this unpleasant thing to get what I want." then it might have worked better for me. But he is all for doing Jedi genocide and shows little hesitation or offers any objection.
    Anakin was all for sacrificing other people to get what he desired, Padme not dying.
    Even what she would think didn't matter. Because it was all about him, he didn't want to loose her.
    So anything he could do to avoid that was preferable.
    And Anakin had his own plans, he planned to dispose of Palpatine as soon as he got what he wanted so that he could rule.
    Sure, his thinking has likely been poisoned by the venom of the Dark Side and twisted his mind.
    But Anakin's desire was for Power and to posses Padme.

    To sum up, siding with Palpatine had all benefits and no downside as Anakin saw it.
    He could save Padme, which the Jedi didn't help him with.
    And he didn't care much for the Jedi or democracy so that those would go didn't bother him.
    He would gain power, both to save Padme but also to become the second most powerful person in the galaxy and as I've said, he had plans to make himself no 1.

    It all backfired on him and he suffered greatly, which is a nice dramatic irony.

    @Cryogenic
    DrDre said;

    Here;

    In much of history, animals are considered very valuable, as food, beasts of burden etc.
    A sacrifice of animals is often seen as greater than a sacrifice of fruit and vegetables.
    See Cain and Abel, Cain gave up crops while Abel gave up animals and God preferred the latter, causing envy in Cain.
    So anyone that kills an animal as an offering to a God is knowingly giving up something valuable for a divine favor of some sort.

    And here;

    GREATER value, so the object that is given up has some value.


    "Something of value". So what is given up is valuable to the person giving it up.

    That tends to be the case for most sacrifices, that what is given up is important or valuable.
    If a deity demands you give up a roll of toilet paper in order for him to grant you a favor, that wouldn't be much of a sacrifice to me.


    I don't much see a case for Anakin wanting to prove his worth to Padme. At least in RotS.
    In AotC it seemed that he was trying to impress her with his powers.
    That he wanted to be better than Obi-Wan, that was something I saw in AotC.
    He respected Obi-Wan but he also saw himself as superior to his master in many ways.
    In their fight then Anakin is very much about "I am stronger than you".
    So those feelings might have been there for a while but that they had much of an impact in his choosing to side with Palpatine, I don't see it.

    What he wanted and the primary reason for his turn, is the power to save Padme.
    That is what he wanted and why he did what he did.
    Had Palpatine never mentioned that or made such offers, I doubt that Anakin would have stopped Mace from killing him. I doubt he would even had been there.

    What happens to Anakin on Mustafar, I view that as somewhat separate from the choice he makes to side with Palpatine. It was certainly a result of his actions and not one he wanted.
    I see it more on the line of Faustian bargain, when people make a pact with some trickster spirit in order to gain something but it backfires in the end.
    Often it is the result of the trickster spirit finding a loop hole in the contract that allows them to screw the person over.
    Like in the first Ghost Rider film. Young Johnny cares about his father, who is very sick, and the Devil makes an offer to restore him to health if Johnny gives up his soul. Johnny does and his father is healthy again but dies in an accident the next day. So the Devil did what he said but also screwed Johnny over.

    In Anakin's case I don't think that Palaptine caused him to get chopped up and burnt to a crisp, nor do I think he wanted that. I do think that Palpatine was happy with Padme dying, that served his interest just fine. Now Anakin has nothing left, no one that he might listen and no one he really cares about. All that is left is hatred and lust for power.

    What happened on Mustafar burned away the good man that Anakin used to be and left only hatred and evil. But as Luke saw, not completely. Some light remained, a small part of Anakin's heart had some light in it. There was still a small ember of love in the dark soul that was Vader.

    To sum up, there are many great ideas and loads of intersting concepts in the PT.
    Where the PT in parts fall down is the execution of those ideas. At least to me.
    Maybe that is why I find them in somewhat frustrating, I see the potential but feel that the films didn't totally realize that potential.
    The ideas sound good on paper but on film they at times fizzled.
    At least to me. I know that others greatly enjoy them and that is great.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  24. DementedMeerkat

    DementedMeerkat Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2015
    Honestly I mostly don't understand most of the critiques for Anakin. For me, he always struck me as a big kid. And a really troubled one at that, who has had so many sacrifices forced upon him - it's always harder to make your own sacrifices when you have been made to make so many before, especially as a teenager (the whole wanting to do homework, but your parents make you do it so you don't want to do it next time situation). I can't say I wouldn't act out if I was in his position, and not be tempted to make easier (but wrong) decisions.
    We see his aggressive nature in AotC, as many teens naturally have, his lust for his dream-girl that turns possessive, like many teens have... but he also suffers terrible tragedy, living his life without his mother to only reunite with her upon her murder. And all this right before war breaks out, and the Jedi (who have held him back and constricted his life so much already while telling him he is very powerful) decide they must actively partake in it. Anakin has no say in this matter, though he was a catalyst that started what was already the inevitable. But it's literally the worst time for war to break out for Anakin, because he now has the perfect environment to act on his anger and hate, use his power, and succumb more to other temptations that go with warfare like suspicion, mistrust, and also attachment to those he used to care about that are now (literally) in the firing line, all of which he suffered from before. He basically had no chance to grow up properly, like a normal person or normal Jedi, because he was always hailed as the Chosen One and so took on the responsibilities of that title, and was then flung right into war in one of the most important parts of life, which is the transition to adulthood. As I'm at the end of that journey right now, I can easily say I would be a very scarred person if I'd had any of that stuff happen to me. Honestly he does well to be as cheery as he is in the start of RotS. I suppose it helps that I watched the PT as I grew up, and it's a shame some people can't look at these films through a child/teen's eyes and relate to the characters in that way (like I do about TFA and the OT).
    I feel it is a bit silly to say 'he wasn't what audiences were looking for', because most interesting characters aren't that, and audiences generally don't encourage the best story beats or characters (think 50 Shades and all that crap). Sure, sometimes they do, but I'd rather put my trust in the movie makers or the person who conceived the whole universe in the first place! Plus I've only ever met two people in real life who didn't like the character that much - one of which is the only person my age who doesn't like the PT, saying all the usual internet complaints about CGI etc.
    I'd take Anakin any day over someone like Han, who I honestly find to be a prick nowadays and his popularity as a hero/role model baffles me. I enjoy the scoundrel nature and the sarcasm, and his sacrifices and signs of good nature should not be forgotten, but I find Anakin a lot more likeable and relatable than most other characters across all the films because he isn't able to solve his problems. An extraordinary person forced into extraordinary circumstances...
     
    mikeximus and Qui-Riv-Brid like this.
  25. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I find JJ places being emotionally in the moment crowd pleasing over story and character.

    I don't know the exact article but there was one where he went over how much he was all about thinking about the audience reactions and in essence how they would "like" it as being what he wanted to do.

    This is very much against the Lucas approach of wanting to see what he likes and hopefully the audience will come along.

    Hardly.

    psychopath - a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior

    I guess Finn is one as well then and what did the First Order do to him? I mean anything besides what happened to all of them who were taken?

    Yet without a second's thought he mows them down like they are worthless.

    So where is all the "everyone back away from Finn" comments?

    Why does Rey like this mass murderer?

    Isn't she crazy? Why doesn't she "turn him in"?

    What about the heroism in AOTC?

    Why overlook that?

    Yeah. You are right.

    Friendship, loyalty, kindness, respect, humor, love etc etc are all terrible qualities to have!

    Odd how you only see those as opposed to those and the above.

    I always wonder why that is? The point is that he is all of those things which is what makes him such a great character.

    Instead it seems some would rather that he only have the "good in him" and none of the evil. I don't see how that helps the character or story in any way. All it does is hurt it.

    The joke about dictatorship is a small but entirely key point of his thinking which is why Lucas put it there.

    Everything Lucas has Anakin say is important. If it wasn't then he wouldn't say it.

    As has been talked about Lucas very obviously moved away from the very specific hero fall to expand it to be about a human person falling. The hero aspect is just one side of it and seen more specifically in ROTS in the movies and explored by Lucas in TCW.

    This to me is one of the key if not ultimately the key point of all of this.

    Anakin fails and therefore that means that becoming Darth Vader is a failure not a triumph.

    Luke and Han are "relatable" because they win and succeed. People like winners and there are those within the audience that identify with that so that means that they are also winning.

    Anakin fails. Over and over so he is a loser and those withing the audience don't want to be losers. They don't want Vader to be a loser and ANH and TESB had Vader as a winner. After that the Vader persona was a loser.

    None at all. No problems with the First Order ever. Yet the simple analysis above points to all the flaws in the basic construction of the character. The far more interesting Finn that could have been done would of course be nowhere near as likeable.

    Going back to Anakin I feel that for many they would be very happy with a version of the character that turned for no discernible reason as long as they liked him.