PT Why Are The PT Films criticized? (catch-all thread)

They are repeatedly criticized because Attack of the Clones literally means Rebuke of the Mimics. Oh, snap! Star Wars outsmarted y'all again.

 

Basically, PT criticism, or at least PT Anakin criticism, can be summed up like this:
Typical hardcore adult ESB fan: "OK George, great that you finally do the prequels, but you better do them right, the way WE want them. It's OK to show young Vader, but he better be REALLY BADASS, the badassest vilain eva! badder than ESB Vada!"
TPM comes out:
"NO George! You got it all wrong! We wanted a VILLAIN, not a 10-year old kid who always cries for his mommy! We wanted to see the real Vader! You better do it right next time!"
After first half of AOTC:
"NO George, you got it wrong again! We wanted a BADASS, not a whiny teenager who thinks he's in love and only talks about his mother and sand. We don't want a love story in SW, EVER. Everybody knows that the only possible love story could be between brother and sister or at least between a smuggler and a princess. There are no other possible love stories in SW!!!!"
After Tusken massacre:
"WHAT???? OMG!!! He just killed a whole tribe of innocent sand people! When we said we wanted badass we didn't mean THIS badass!! We wanted a VILLAIN, a KILLER, NOT a murderer. Everybody knows that a proper movie villain first says something really evil with an English or German accent, then destroys dozens of planets with 1000 trillion inhabitants, he NEVER kills REAL people with a lightsaber! OMG! And if he has to kill someone then it better be Jar Jar or at least some Ewoks. But sand people are the bestest badassest gangstas outside the Empire. NOBODY kills them. Nobody can be badasser than them. You ruined my childhood George !"
.....keeps on whining, complaining, crying, committing suicide etc.....
No offense meant! But to me criticism of the prequels and Hayden's role sometimes appears like this.

 

Yeah, you summed up the criticism of a few of the denser fans. Nothing else. Which is easy to mock. I like the prequels quite a bit, but there are a lot of very legitimate criticisms of them related to story structure, directing, visuals and acting that have nothing to do with wanting a badass Anakin. Personally, I simply wanted a more natural and compelling progression of Anakin from hero to villain within a more compelling galactic story (with more realistic political dynamics as well).

 

Everyone wanted something different from every sequel or prequel ever made. So? In the end it's the storyteller who gets to tell the story. Do I think the prequels are perfect? Definitely not. But they work well enough in the context of the saga. It's not up to the fans to decide how a story should be told. I respect Lucas for not giving in to fan expectations but following his own vision instead. It's this part that some people can't accept. Maybe there is some "legitimate criticism", but how come that doesn't apply to the OT? How come TFA is praised as the best thing that ever happened to the saga? At least apply equal standards when criticizing a movie. But many "fans" are incapable or unwilling to do that. They use biased double standards, and that is what I take offense at. If story structure, directing, visuals, acting are so bad in the prequels at least prove they are so much better in the OT or TFA.

 

I feel that many fans on these boards are actually very good at "proving" that, meaning that they can explain exactly why they feel that some films got things right and why other films didn't live up to those standards.

That doesn't mean that I agree, though. I see the films as being (intentionally) different and I love all of them.
All it means is that I feel a lot of respect for different points of view. Especially when they're explained in a reasonable manner.

 

I perfectly agree with that. When they present valid and reasonable arguments then there is no problem. It's just those comments like "Anakin is a whiny teenager", "the love story sucks" or "the prequels are all CGI" that I find to be pretty ludicrous.

 

Its a case of trying to separate fair criticism from looking for criticism.

 

Establishing how and where subjective lines are drawn, and rubbing out those lines falsely proclaimed as objective.

 

Yeah, but why even dignify those as criticisms? Ignore them and only pay attention to the more thoughtful critiques.

Unless that frightens you...

 

Sometimes it's necessary or desirable to challenge attitudes that perhaps gain undue prominence and/or distort the agenda of a discussion.

 

True enough. As I wrote in other posts, I do and did ignore those for most of the time. When the prequels came out I didn't even use the internet except for emails. But being on this forum you can't help but notice all that negativity towards them. I didn't even know until about 5 years ago that the prequels were hated this much. Ignore hatred? Sure, that would be the best reaction. But I do feel that those of us who feel prequel hate is mostly unjustified should speak out and let our standpoints be known. I'm nowhere near a hardcore fan, and SW isn't really that important in my life. But the saga did have a huge influence on my youth and I have always thought of the prequels as a worthy addition to the story that had had such an impact on me when I was younger. Yes, I grew up with the OT and loved it. But as an adult I still felt that the new movies didn't ruin the saga but expanded on it. Is that bad? No criticism frightens me, but I do feel I can at least speak out against it when I feel it's unjustified.

 

In this case, I think over-defensiveness from prequel fans serves to keep the haters' voices alive. In a few years, prequel hatred will be a distant memory. Let's speed that up by ignoring it where it crops up.

 

The opposite I think. It's makes it drain away because even they realize how silly they look.

Of course what really has undercut them is the new movies and all the new stories. They realize that the prequels aren't going away. The stories aren't going away. The practical effects argument is being utterly destroyed by the CGI of the new movies which will never match the practical effects of the PT.

Even those who despise the prequels have found that the lack of progression of the new movies is so stark and apparent that they have to grudgingly acknowledge their achievements. What is happening is that the one thing they will keep on about is how poorly executed they feel the movies are.

 

No, I don't think those are the issues driving a muting of prequel criticism. At all. What's mostly driving it is attention to the new films, and a mere recognition that the prequels are part of the background canon of those new films. So no need to rehash old criticisms. Let's accept that all of George's work was canon, and get on with the new material.

 

That's the point though. They aren't merely background canon they are both that and the ongoing story. Many people really believed that the new movies would somehow ignore the prequels and that somehow the new movies would be connected only to the OT. That hasn't been the case and they realize that whether they like it or not the saga starts with Episode I.

If anything TFA by it's nature whether intended or not now makes going back to TPM compulsory. You have to start at the start because the ST's identity is tied into Anakin's beginning.

 

Hating on the prequels isn't as cool as it used to be.

Somewhere along the way it happened.

 

Yeah. It now comes off as petty (and passé) to a lot of fans. Even former haters.

 

People look silly when they criticize the Prequels? Does that only apply to those movies or to all movies?

Not at all. It's just that some of the more extreme PT Defenders try to apply straw-man tactics to that issue. They try to over-simplify it in order to undermine the argument. Usually with the absurd childish logic of "it's hypocritical to criticise the CGI in the PT & be in favor of the CGI in the ST". Clearly this is garbage. What a great many viewers & fans have a problem with is the quality & the aesthetic of the digital effects in the Prequels. That it looks far too much like animation. That modern CGI is more convincing & therefore more acceptable. Absolutely nothing wrong with that belief. It makes perfect sense. Technology & effects improve over time. That silly argument is like saying that it's hypocritical to believe the stop-motion effects in the Harryhausen movies of the 1940's & 50's look terrible today, while at the same time liking the AT-AT's in ESB. That would be an equally nonsensical criticism.

Really? Bcs I've noticed that far more of the crowd who despise the PT are totally into the new films. In fact isn't that the argument that everyone keeps spruiking? That the new movies pander to the OT fans? That added to the fact that the 2 films so far have been incredibly well received. 80-90% positive reviews from critics, fans & the general audience.

Who are "they" & "those"? You mean the section of fandom who agree with your views? Ok, in that case you should separate them into that category & stop generalizing. This is all sounding a bit like PT Fan Fiction. Some alternate reality where the world has had an epiphany & realised that the PT is a misunderstood work of genius.

Just curious QRB, have you had a go at answering this thread question? I'd be curious to hear your explanation.

 

So TFA does not pander to the OT fans? Not my impression at all. The prequels were not well received? Again not my impression. What was the situation before all that stupid bashing on the internet? I think overall the prequels got mostly positive reviews, especially ROTS. Any evidence to the contrary?

 

Well this thread's very title asks "why are the PT films criticized?" I've been here quite a while and have most often found that general topics like this are pretty much an invitation for both "sides" to break the films not fans rules. Usually these open threads descend into battle ground territory more easily than specific topics.

Plus, are the charges of PT fans being "over-defensive" and "childish" not weird generalization as well? Seems to me like all of the films not fans violations should be discouraged.

 

Presenting all of the evidence showing that Eps 1 & 2 received, & still receive a very mixed reception would take days. For one thing, those 2 movies always, virtually without exception land dead last in every fan poll ever conducted. Including those run here in the Forums. They both have the lowest average score on countless other metrics. This doesn't mean they're inferior movies as an indisputable fact of course. They also have plenty of fans. The question this thread is asking is why the PT in general & Eps 1 & 2 in particular are on average criticised more & rated lower than the other films in this series. Any ideas?

 

Quite a bit wrong with that belief. It would mean everything has an expiration date as there really is no culmination day on advancement. It is foolish pride to think "now" it is finally right. Lots of people were amazed at the CGI when the PT came out. It was an advancement. The dissent (at the time) was it was simply overused. Should I be able to just harass those that love an old movie simply because it is in black and white and/or mono. Or even "horrible" surround sound. Should I be able to just dismiss the CGI advancements in TFA (moreso in R1 than TFA) because 16 years from now it is so 2D?

If it as just about the quality, then it makes Abrams, et al look petty. You can get better looking CGI because computers have advanced significantly in 16 years? Wow. The software programming has solved more and more problems with how to bring physics into the world of CGI animation. That must be all Abrams. Don't even bother to tip the hat to the crews that made those advancements possible, including PT era Lucasfilm itself.

You can pat yourself on the back for pushing the envelope, but not at the expense of the pre-made envelope you were handed. That idiot Einstein didn't even use computer modeling to work out his theories. What an oaf.

 

You specifically highlighted Darth Downunder's view on generalizations being something you agreed with, and he mainly took issue with "PT defenders." Hence my confusion. I thought some clarification was needed.