Why aren't Luke and Mara considered murderers?

I'm sure you have all noticed the multiple debates about whether Kyp is or is not a murderer for what he did in Rebirth. Some "Kyp-dislikers" have even gone as far as to label him a terrorist. Yet Luke, Mara, Han, Chewie and Lando killed over 20,000 innocents in the Last Command. I've asked this question multiple times, and have yet to get a response, let alone one that satisfies me: Why aren't they considered terrorists?

From Page 179 of The Last Command, in reference to Spaarti Cloning Cylinders in Mount Tantiss:
"Were there a thousand cylinders?" Organa Solo persisted. "Two thousand? Ten?"

"I'd say at least twenty thousand," Mara told her. "Maybe more."

Over 20,000 clones who had yet to commit any sort of crime, and our heroes blow up the mountain they are in. The clones had done nothing to warrant their deaths. They died because, most likely, they would end up as stormtroopers or pilots or whatever. But not necessarily, the could've become simple, honorable folks, like Carib Devist, or many others. They were killed simply because they existed.

If anything, their actions were worse than Kyp's, in terms of killing innocents. Kyp's actions led indirectly to the deaths of innocents, if any died at all. Luke, Mara and Company never gave the "innocents" a chance. Yet I have yet to hear any of our beloved characters labeled as terrorists, only Kyp. Is this not a double standard?

I'm not arguing that what Luke did was wrong. They believed it needed to be done, that killing the clones was in the best interests of the galaxy, and I agree. But how is what they did any different from what Kyp did? Shouldn't they be held to the same standards as Kyp?

 

The problem there is that is later suggested that for the Clone to be alive, they must actually leave the cloning cylinders and be "born". Even at full growth in the cylinders, clones seem to still be growing.

Now this is in line with the abortion debates, which makes it far harder to deal with. In one sense, a clone in the cloning cylinders is an unborn child. In another, a clone is virtually just a collection of a persons genetic make-up, just waiting to be released. I think the second sense is more fitting as clones don't seem as alive in the cylinders as infants do in the womb. Infants eat and breath, along with other things, through the umbilical cord. They also move about inside the womb. Clones seem to be raised in a nutrient solution, but they don't eat, breath, or do anything until after the leave the cylinder.

The real problem here is that this boarders the abortion debate. Just how do we view clones in cloning cylinders? Do we view them as being alive or as just genetic material waiting to be activated (in orthewords, born)?

 

Kyp has also had his own history of mass destruction (can you say "suncrusher" anyone?). He blew up entire star systems, for Bob's sake! The entire rebellion, for that matter, could be considered terrorists in that they use violence to oppose order. The reason Luke and Mara aren't considered murderers: because the victors write the history books, and Luke and Mara won.

 

You are correct, it seems. AS I lost all my SW books except for "The Hutt Gambit" when I went to prison the last time, I cannot go back and re-read that particular section. Since I cannot... I will base most of this post on assumptions. If any of these assumptions are incorrect... Please let me know so I can revise what I say in future posts.

Assumption One: I will assume that these clones were in fact viable living organisms.

Assumption Two: Each of the Spaarti cylinders held a clone.

Assumption Three: It was under our hero's express command and wish that the cylinders be destroyed.

Those are the assumptions I will make when answering this post, quite obviously directed at me. If all of the above is correct... It would indeed place them in the same category as Kyp. They would and should also be referred to as terrorists.

I will say, however, that the destruction of these clones did not and most likely will not raise my ire as Kyp's actions have done. While you may percieve this as a double standard if you wish... I do not believe that this is the case. Since you have obviously read the thread in which I labled Kyp a terrorist, you most likely have also read about those people I know who lost loved ones on September 11th. One of the men I work with and have a great respect for was hospitalized for close to 2 weeks after an overdose thought to be a failed suicide attempt after losing his son in that attack. When I read Rebirth, and Kyp and Jaina's argument at the end which stated that Kyp was indeed targeting innocents... This enraged me. What enraged me further was then coming here and seein Kyp idolized and held up as a hero for his actions. Something I personally see as not very far from holding bin Laden up for hero-worship. At the time of Zahn's trilogy being released I was much younger and the 9-11 attack still many years off. At that time I likely would have felt the same way you do about Kyp. But in the wake of recent events... I find it puzzling and indeed insulting that a terrorist act (even in a book) is being lauded and the person responsible being help up a model. Were I to go back and re-read the Thrawn trilogy today... I might feel the same about Luke and Leia and all these other characters as I do about Kyp. Likely not to the same degree because even if I did go back and read that book again, I doubt I would come here and find people holding that action up as a shining example of what others should do. I hope this in some way answers the questions posed in your thread. If not... Let me know and I will try again.

 

The problem here is, there is a widespread prejudice in the GFFA against clones, so no one cares if they live or die. I have given my opinion on this before, but I will repeat it: Clones have the potential to be good or bad, JUST LIKE ALL OTHER BEINGS DO. They also have a chance for redemption, like other beings. We cannot know for a surety what the clones would have done, given a chance to grow, be taught, and go out into the universe. Perhaps, being a Jedi, Luke saw a greater good. The point is, we cannot know, and have only the point of view the pro-Luke propoganda presented by Zhan gives us. I reserve the right to stage a protest at any time.

 

Were they cloning at the time, Face? Were there clones in the cylinders?

My book is is storage, so I cannot get to it.

 

It was a military target. Those cylinders weren?t creating ?honorable folk?; they were creating pilots and stormtroopers for the Empire. These beings (I hesitate to call them ?people?) know nothing but the Empire. Through their flash learning tubes, they have been tough since conception how to serve the Empire. That does not provide them with a choice. They will be pilots or stormtroopers, they will fight against the NR, and that makes them a military target.

Basically, the Empire was creating war machines. These war machines had the potential to become ?honorable folk? but only after many years of not serving the Empire; after having gained a life of their own.

These being were not people. They were near mindless drones with a small amount of potential for something more.

 

I went and pulled my book out of storage. It doesn't say anywhere whether or not they had clones growing in them; and considering that

A) Thrawn had sent C'Baoth there to imprison him, I would doubt he would be actively cloning in a place he's using to imprison a mad Jedi.

B) The locals (myneyrshi)were rebelling against the Imperial forces there, creating quite a havoc at the time. While even C'Baoth admitted that they would eventually fail, it still wouldn't make much sense to be creating clones right into a battle situation.

C) In Thrawn's novels, Luke seems overly worried about falling to the dark side. I'm fairly certain that if he knew there were clones in the cylinders, that he would have backed out of the mission. I mean, in the EU Luke is the last person who would kill an innocent if he could at all avoid it.

D) From what I understood, Thrawn was cloning to fill the dreadnaughts they had found and some Star Destroyers. By the time the strike team got there, he had done that. I don't see Thrawn as the type of guy to overclone (sounds weird, doesn't it?).

Those are my observations.

 

"These being were not people. They were near mindless drones with a small amount of potential for something more."

....who had yet to commit a crime. JJS, there are many people in the United States with such impaired mental abilities that they could be called "mindless drones," too, but it is still murder if you murder them.

Howlrunner, your assumptions are correct. As for this thread being intended for you, that's not entirely true. You are by far not the first person to make the terrorism comparison, and you certainly won't be the last. I've asked this very question at least 4 other times since Rebirth came out, and I had yet to get a response. Your argument simply reminded me of it, and your opinion was one (among many) that I was interested to hear.

 

....who had yet to commit a crime.

So assassin droids who have yet to commit a crime should first be given the opportunity to kill hundreds before they are destroyed? They are programmed to kill. They have the potential to be more than just killers, but a small potential.

JJS, there are many people in the United States with such impaired mental abilities that they could be called "mindless drones," too, but it is still murder if you murder them.

True, but those mindless drones weren?t created to kill people. The clones that were in the cylinders (if there were any) were created for the specific purpose to kill people.

They are war machines and are therefor military targets!

 

I still don't think there were clones in there anyway, so the whole question is sort of moot.

 

Have you ever killed anyone?

Yeah, but they were all bad.

See, it's not murder if they're bad guys and you're connected in some way to the government or other power in authority.

 

I'll have to take your word that it is not explicitely stated whether the tanks are full or not, JediStryker, because I do not of The Last Command with me. So given that it doesn't conclusively say one way or the other, I admit that it's open to interpretation. That may very well be why so many people don't even consider whether it was a bad thing or not. The examples you bring up could suggest that it wasn't in use. But there is "evidence," while not conclusive at all, that suggests it was.

Why was Thrawn sending one of his highest ranking official's, General Covell, to guard a base that was no longer in use, and as you suggested, no longer needed? Thrawn had yet to begin any large scale takeovers of New Republic planets. Assaulting and policing New Republic planets would take lots of troops, why would he shut down his main troop producing center at the beginning of his main offensive?

"See, it's not murder if they're bad guys and you're connected in some way to the government or other power in authority."

Ohhh, so that's what I'm missing! If Kyp was a governmental official or an authority figure, he wouldn't be a murderer either.

 

AS I lost all my SW books except for "The Hutt Gambit" when I went to prison the last time,

[face_shocked]

 

Why was Thrawn sending one of his highest ranking official's, General Covell, to guard a base that was no longer in use, and as you suggested, no longer needed? Thrawn had yet to begin any large scale takeovers of New Republic planets. Assaulting and policing New Republic planets would take lots of troops, why would he shut down his main troop producing center at the beginning of his main offensive?

Let me clarify. I'm not saying he was done with them completely, I was simply stating that at that moment, he did not need clones being manufactured.

He was defending the base, because Thrawn was not one to throw useful things away. While he did not need more clones at that moment, he could potentially need more in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there was no cloning going on for a fact. I am still searching through this book looking for something definite.

One other thing quickly. The fact that there was a cloning cylinder free for C'Baoth to create Luuke could also mean that the cylinders were not being used by Thrawn at the time. C'Baoth also made it clear that he could have Mara and Luke cloned again, which also suggests that the cylinders may have been empty at that time. I mean, if Thrawn were using them, why would he not use all of them?

 

See, it's not murder if they're bad guys and you're connected in some way to the government or other power in authority.

I don?t think that?s true either. A terrorist act is still terrorism, whether it is done by someone in authority, or someone with no connection to any authority.

However, Mount Tantiss was a military target. No civilians that we know of were killed in its destruction.

 

There are never any war crimes charged against those who won the war.

 

Alright,

On page 216 of The Last Command, Thrawn is handing over a ship to C'baoth to take to Wayland. On this page, Thrawn tells one of his officers to inform General Covell that "the computer has a list of troops and crewers assigned as cloning templates; Covell's aides will arrange for them to be put aboard the Draklor."

So, the cylinders are not, as we already know, cloning the same people over and over again. They clone different people, to vary their army. The people scheduled to be cloned have not arrived yet.

And when they do get there, C'baoth has screwed with Covell and his group which was to be used as the new cloning templates, sending them outside of Mt. Tantiss. When Thrawn learns of this, he has C'baoth imprisoned and orders that the troops outside the mountain are to remain there. In that same chapter, he tells Pellaeon that a new place for cloning must be found; that the conditions for cloning on Wayland are no longer acceptable.

So no more cloning, that I can see, is being done at Mt. Tantiss by the time that the strike team arrives.

 

Well, I consider Luke to be a pacifist and he never killed unless he was borne down upon by a threat, like the DSI over Yavin. He stopped world devastators in DE, even at the risk of everything. He doesn't know what to do with the Vong (he does now, he understands how over-zealous they really are), and always errs on the side of caution.

Mara is a former assasin of the Emperor, so I don't believe at all that she would be as well received by Alliance members as she has been writtn. Her job was to pick them off. And not kindly, either. She murdered whole families, including innocent children, and so forth. She does not deserve to be accepted and admired as she is. It's so Mary Jane.
If I had to sit across from her at a meeting knowing that she slit my father's throat, or whatever, I would revolt like hell. The NR should never accept her. She was more than a conscripted soldier, regardless of her circumstances, they should not trust her.
And then she has an attitude like everyone owes her something. It really pisses me off.

Kyp committed genocide, and still keeps doing it. Him and Mara are considered Jedi Masters? HA! I guess the Emperor really did get what he wanted, even though he died, and that is for the darkside to corrupt the Jedi Order. Jaina really has a chance with these two for instructors, doesn't she? What is Luke thinking?

 

This is that thing about whether a preemptive strike is defense or offense. Personally, I'd like to know if there was any prodding from the Force in this case.

 

Tiershon...
Agree in concept except for one major point:
"I guess the Emperor really did get what he wanted, even though he died, and that is for the darkside to corrupt the Jedi Order."

The New Jedi Order as evidenced by Mara Jade as a Jedi Master is not in any way, shape, or form the Jedi Order, nor does it have anything to do with that order of galactic guardians. You can call it "The Peanut Butter Gang" for all the relevence it holds to her being a Jedi Master.

She is a New Jedi Master of a New Jedi Order.

Hopefully, the galaxy will see a return of a new Jedi Order and get rid of the morally and ethically broken people like Mara Jade and their corrupting influence on things.

 

Hmm, I sense some anti-Zhan sentiments coming to the surface ...

 

Ummm, Zahn holds no relevence to the fictional character of Mara Jade. ? He also didn't have anything to do with making her a "New Jedi" or "New Jedi Master."

 

What I would like to know is: Has Mara ever been held accountable for her past actions as the Emperor's Hand? I believe her actions would fit right into the "war crimes" category. Heck, if Nazi guards can be tried for "following" orders, then why can't and why hasn't a KNOWN assasin been brought to justice instead of prancing around the galaxy as a figure piece for Truth and Justice! Talk about hypocrasy!

 

Hey, Kyp didn't get in trouble for blowing up a star system. Even if you are certified temporarily insane (which he wasn't), you wouldn't get away scot-free, you would be "treated" for your "insanity". Mara was "just following orders". Kyp was "temporarily seduced by the dark side". Ditto for Luke in DE. In the action currently discussed, Luke, Mara, Lando, etc., were "acting for the greater good of the galaxy". The excuses go on and on. Perhaps there were cicumstances which excused them, perhaps not. Did the general public ever find out what happened? The SW literature focuses on central characters to the exclusion of the greater part of this created "universe". We don't know much about how free the press really is, and how much people found out. We don't know lots of things, but we do know that the characters thought that they were in the right, and that people can be wrong when they think things like that. However, for this to be a continuation of the mythos, we just have to accept that they WERE right, and move on. If we don't, the heroes of the story become, well, murderers. Personally, I think they are murderers, in every sense of the word, but I put it aside, because I want to enjoy the rest of the story.

Wow, that was a long ramble. Feel free to ignore it if it makes no sense.