Why aren't Luke and Mara considered murderers?

"Hey, Kyp didn't get in trouble for blowing up a star system."

Very true, but at least they acknowledge his wrong doing. He was "put on trial," so to speak, and received his punishment from the leader of the New Republic, Mon Mothma, and the leader of the Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker. That punishment was a life in servitude to the Jedi Order, and walking around with the label "The man that destroyed Carida". Mara's actions have faced no such scrutiny, and her crimes have never been acknowledged. She gets to pretend to be moral authority and pretend her misdeeds never happened, Kyp doesn't.

"Personally, I think they are murderers, in every sense of the word, but I put it aside, because I want to enjoy the rest of the story."

Really good point. When it comes down to it, we all have to overlook certain character flaws. Certain characters just have bigger flaws to overlook.

 

Very true, but at least they acknowledge his wrong doing. He was "put on trial," so to speak, and received his punishment from the leader of the New Republic, Mon Mothma, and the leader of the Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker. That punishment was a life in servitude to the Jedi Order, and walking around with the label "The man that destroyed Carida". Mara's actions have faced no such scrutiny, and her crimes have never been acknowledged. She gets to pretend to be moral authority and pretend her misdeeds never happened, Kyp doesn't.

The difference here would probably be that there is likely no record of any of Mara Jade's actions. Luke knows that she was assigned to kill him, because she told him. He's forgiven her. She's admitted to being the Emperor's Hand... but we don't know what that included exactly. We can THEORIZE what it meant 'cause we knew Palpy was a mean dude, but without records she can't be reprimanded. Besides her admitting to being assigned to assassinate Luke, do we know of any other "bad stuff" she was supposed to have done? If there was, it doesn't stand out enough for me to recall...

 

Well, she used to be sent out to assassinate people and destroy buildings and stuff. We have had some examples, I just don't remember them right now.

The point that there were no records is a good one, though. She was working directly for the Emperor, and there's no way he kept a record. Can you just imagine:
"Dear diary,
Today I had that pretty girl Mara kill those mean merchants who didn't want to play strip sabaac with me. Of course, I told her it was because they were plotting against the Empire..."



Anyway, back to my point: There is probably a New Republic law that says you can't be forced to incriminate yourself, or something like that. So, since Vader was probably the only person besides the Emperor and Mara who knew what she did (if even Vader knew), and Vader and Palpatine are both dead, I don't see how they would build a case against her.

 

if Kyp is a murderer, so are Luke and Mara "FORMER ASSASSIN" Jade.

 

im sick of all the tree hugging hippies debating honor and morals and ethics and killing. its obvious to anyone who knows anything about something what needed to be done in that situation. its right in everyones faces that it is necessary to the survival of the galaxy and the NR and the jedi and to the defeat of the imperials that the cloning cylinders needed to be destroyed. everyone hates us big picture people, because while you are continuing the petty squabbling about a few thousand innocent/not innocent lives, we are thinking of the fate of trillions, and instantly know what must be done about it.

 

I actually agree with you, Myn (Well, kind of anyway). I think killing the clones was completely justified. It was absolutely necessary for the defense of the galaxy. I just want to know why Luke and Mara aren't held to the same standard Kyp is.

 

Myn......."Tree hugging hippies"? Sweeeet....one of my favorite Eric Cartman lines.

Yes, the bigger picture is what needs to be looked at. Sometimes the end does justify the means. It is the best for the greater good that needs to be addressed. Clones were being produced for one purpose: to kill, just like a blaster or Death Star. Sure they may not have killed if allowed to mature and then be re-programmed, but what about the interim?. Afterall, I would assume if a clone is made from a soldier programmed to kill or hate, wouldn't that clone also be programmed to kill and hate as well? So by killing the clones before they matured, they didn't do anything different than if they had blown up a shipyard or weapons factory. Thus, no crimes were committed.

You can look at Kyp's actions almost the same way. He did what needed to be done, but the way he went about it is where the question comes in. I think that is what is the difference between the two. One act was noble and one was selfish. But afterall, it is war.

 

You can look at Kyp's actions almost the same way. He did what needed to be done, but the way he went about it is where the question comes in. I think that is what is the difference between the two. One act was noble and one was selfish. But afterall, it is war.

Uhhh, no. Had he taken a nuke to the Carida MILITARY ACADEMY from orbit (it's the only way to be sure, after all) and obliterated it -- fine. Military target, janitors be damned, no problem. He obliterated the Carida SYSTEM which doubtlessly included millions or billions of civilians no associated with the Empire war machine. And this is not one of those "contractors on the second Death Star" situations -- people in outlying settlements and cities on Carida (were they to exist) are not fair game, because their personal politics does NOT come into play merely for living on the other side of a planet from a military installation.

I agree with MynDonos that the ends do tend to justify the means for the most part in war, but not by indiscriminate blanket obliteration. And, for the record, I agree with most of Kyp's actions during the Vong campaign. I just wish he'd stop being so reckless with his pilots.

 

dp4m- When I said that about Kyp, I wasn't referring to his actions against Carida, but his actions against the Vong.

 

dp4m- When I said that about Kyp, I wasn't referring to his actions against Carida, but his actions against the Vong.

Right, but I think the majority of the "Kyp is a murderer" comes from the Carida "incident," as the NR Military hasn't exactly tried to get Kyp to stand trials for misdeeds with the Vong. They're not pleased about what he does to the Vong, but they're not really upset about it either. The worldship he "convinced" people to attack was under construction... it wasn't full yet, though it can be assumed that he consigned thousands (tens? hundreds?) of Vong, mostly civilians, to death without the life support of the ship. Or is that not correct? Because that's probably the worst attack he's carried out in terms of "non-military target" during the Vong invasion, and it was pretty much a military target if it wasn't occupied yet. Even WERE it occupied, it could still arguably be considered a military target because the ship itself is a weapon, even if no one on board is combat-oriented.

 

"Right, but I think the majority of the 'Kyp is a murderer' comes from the Carida "incident," as the NR Military hasn't exactly tried to get Kyp to stand trials for misdeeds with the Vong."

Although I think I failed to make this clear, I was referring to the Worldship incident in comparison to Luke and Mara's actoin, not Carida. There are plenty of people who think the Worldship incident alone makes Kyp a murderer and a terrorist. Check some of these threads for a few examples:

• Luke vs. Kyp

• The Vong worldship Discussion, version 2.0

• A problem NJO Jedi Morality

• Kyp's Defenders and the Great Jedi schism

 

Although I think I failed to make this clear, I was referring to the Worldship incident in comparison to Luke and Mara's actoin, not Carida. There are plenty of people who think the Worldship incident alone makes Kyp a murderer and a terrorist.

Ah. Then, no. Kyp != murderer or terrorist based upon the worldship incident alone. Wait, wait, wait... I just had a thought... I was just going to compare Kyp to Sherman, which works, and then I realized that Luke is comparable to Lincoln... that would likely make Jacen or someone Grant...

 

Oh please, if they hadn't killed them they would have become the next generation of Imperial fanatics. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to achieve victory.

 

Force, finally a thread with people I can get behind! Though I don't think I can be more succinct than Tiershon!

I mean, there are those who whine that Mara Sue wasn't EVIL, she didn't turn to the Dark Side, because she wasn't ANGRY when she killed people. To which I reply, oh, great, so she killed them in cold blood without emotion? She was "just following orders?" That makes it okay? Someone tell Tim McVeigh, Josef Mengele & Mohammed Atta, the NJO is recruiting...

Ah, well. Small wonder Jaina turned out the way she did, with Mara Sue as a role model... don't even get me started on Kyp!

Jacen as Grant? *snort* More like McClellan! "Please ask the General, if he's not going to be using the Army anytime soon, could we borrow it..." Anakin...Custer?

 

It wasn't Luke & mara who blew up Mount Tatniss. They were busy trying to off C'Baoth. Lando and Chewie did the explosives.

 

It wasn't Luke & mara who blew up Mount Tatniss. They were busy trying to off C'Baoth. Lando and Chewie did the explosives.

Kyp didn't blow up Caridia, it was the Suncrusher, or the resulting explosion

 

"It wasn't Luke & mara who blew up Mount Tatniss. They were busy trying to off C'Baoth. Lando and Chewie did the explosives."

Kyp didn't fire the killshot at the Worldship, either, yet some easily assign the blame to him.

And what ReaperFett said.

 

Good ol' Lando, who set the explosives. It was he who heroically BLEW UP XIZOR'S SKYSCRAPER (read, pre-9/11) in SotE. There was even a nice little line justifying the civillian casualties there, too. The fact is, it's never, ever okay to kill innocent people, but almost every belief system has a way of justifying it. Note, the civillian casualties that are okay to kill are always on the other side. Nobody ever said, "Well, the government killed my wife, but I guess they had no choice."

Also, regarding Mara's questionable actions during her service to the Empire, we have no farther to look for parallels than the Nazi scientists (euphemistically described as "Germans" everywhere else) who were hired by the US after the war to work on the space program. A senile 90 year-old former Nazi who was stationed in a concentration camp, we'll put on trial and revoke his citizenship. If he was stationed at a V-2 development lab, then we'll laud his ingenuity.

 

First of all those Clones were being created to wage war on the New Republic,if they were allowed to live they would only go out into battle and slaughter planetary defense forces and fleets as well as people living on those planets,clones have no morals and will obey any order without question,this is part of the cloning process mindless obediance to ones master.

And another thing what about Borsk Fey'lya ordering the New Republic fleets to attack and destroy the thousands of innoccent refugee ships during the battle of Coruscant?thats cruel, maybe a least use a tractor beam too send them away or crashing into yuuzhan vong ships,i'd say that since the refugees are going to turned into slaves or sacrificed anyways that death is a release from the misery that they could be forced to endure.

 

"clones have no morals and will obey any order without question,this is part of the cloning process mindless obediance to ones master"

Carib Devist, anyone? Clones are not just mindless drones.

I'm not arguing what Luke did was wrong. There's no doubt in my mind that it was the right thing to do, I just want to know why those who think Kyp murdered the Vong civilians do not also think Luke/Mara/Han/Lando/etc. are murderers.

 

One could argue that since the Galaxy was at war at those times that it was a wartime necessity to kill people and lying about it would cover up any other reasons.



And about the Yuuzhan Vong young onboard the ship,few yuuzhan vong were onboard when the Worldship was destroyed and those that were Shaper and Warriors and a few younger vong, those innocent vong hold the galaxy at large and its citizens in general contempt and hate them,even their children are corrupt and violent monsters they have compassion only for other yuuzhan vong and only for priests and warriors, Shamed One's Shapers Workers and others are treated badly like infidels or worse.
those vong like Osama Bin Laden's Terrorists they kill anyone for any reason without mercy and hate those different than them, the Yuuzhan Vong are vermin and deserve to die reguardless of what the public or society thinks.

 

I think that Kyp is a murderer for what he did at Cardia. I think that what he did at Sernpidal, however, was pretty much justified. AS was the attack on Mt. Tantiss. When you are attacking a military target, or a weapon of an invading force in the interests of defense against that force, you are, in my opnion, justified. I think that the heros arent held to the same standard as kyp IN GENERAL around these boards because of the action at Cardia, not the Worldship thing. That was justifiable, IMO.


The Worldship was not TECHNICALLY a weapon, but it would have provided the habitation for thousands of Vong who would have grown up to war against the new republic. That is a threat to the saftey of the NR and the Jedi, and therefore, a potential weapon.


And for the arguement about the Vong who were on the Worldship at the time...I refer you all back to the Kevin Smith movie "Clerks." They have a great discussion about the people working on Death Star #2 when it was blown up...pretty funny stuff.

 

Okay, here I go stepping into a hornets nest.

First off, clones are not humans. It is even stated that they feel differently in the force, they give off a static in the Force. It is clearly stated that they are different.

Secondly, they are weapons that are intended to do harm, not good. They are created to destroy and so out of self-defense they were destroyed.

Thirdly, what Luke and Mara and Lando did was save a lot of other people's backsides. In WWII we bombed two Japanese cities that killed hundreds of thousands of people so that millions more would not be killed. It may seem like the United States were cold-blooded killers, but it was war and we ended it so that a bunch of other people would not die. It worked.

What the heroes did that was different than Kyp's original thing was that they tried to make a difference for good. Not for self-gratification or revenge. Their motives were pure.

Kyp destroyed billions of lives out of revenge. He should have been executed right then and there. The same hero's that spared him are the ones that you might call murderers.

When Kyp destroyed the world-ships, he was making a strategic strike that crippled the Vong. He didn't do it to kill innocents, but to cripple the Vong's ability to make war against the NR and other innocents. So in that instance Kyp wasn't doing such a bad thing. The bad thing he did was to not inform Jaina and therefore trick her into doing something that she normally would not do. But ultimately crippling the people who are looking for your total destruction is not such a bad thing. Jaina's heightened sense of morality kept her from wanting to be a party to anything like that. But ultimately Kyp was just doing his part to help out the New Republic.

So here is my conclusion, killing clones that are being created to destroy you isn't a bad thing. Nor does it make you a murderer. Taking the battle to the Vong and you know that in war innocents get killed sometimes. Not that they are supposed to, but it may be a good means to save some lives by crippling your enemy in such a way. The other hand to that is that your enemy may fight like a cornered cat. But war is war and bad things happen in war, get over it.

Kyp was wrong with the Sun Crusher, but he was right with the worldship.

 

"Kyp was wrong with the Sun Crusher, but he was right with the worldship."

Absolutely. I don't think anyone here is arguing that what happened to Carida was a good thing. The only things that kept him from not being executed, in my opinion, is the fact that Carida was an enemy world and that Kyp, as a Jedi, could dedicate the rest of his life to serving the galaxy.

 

First off, clones are not humans. It is even stated that they feel differently in the force, they give off a static in the Force. It is clearly stated that they are different.

Incorrect. Perfect clones are, by definition, human. Or whatever species they are cloned from. Hence... clones. In addition, clones only produce a static "buzz" when they are near their duplicates -- evidence for this is suggested by same clones nearby producing buzzes, and Luuke producing a buzz, but C'Baoth producing no buzz. I also believe the sensing differently in the Force was a byproduct of being grown WITHOUT the Force by using yslamiri NOT by being clones in and of themselves. Again, see C'Baoth for example.

Secondly, they are weapons that are intended to do harm, not good. They are created to destroy and so out of self-defense they were destroyed.

Incorrect. Clones, if grown properly (or maybe even if not), can be trained to do whatever. They do not have to be trained as soldiers though this was likely the occupation in mind for the Mount Tantiss Clones.

Thirdly, what Luke and Mara and Lando did was save a lot of other people's backsides. In WWII we bombed two Japanese cities that killed hundreds of thousands of people so that millions more would not be killed. It may seem like the United States were cold-blooded killers, but it was war and we ended it so that a bunch of other people would not die. It worked.

Correct. (Just when you thought I'd disagree entirely with you)...

The Mount Tantiss offensive was not only extremly necessary, but it saved countless lives. But though it was the way to go does not mean you should try and minimize the clones as "inhuman" or "mindless soldier zombies" due to their being clones. They would be fully formed, free thinking humans. They would be TRAINED to follow the Empire, but not "grown" that way (albeit the engram templates they used were predisposed towards the Empire). In addition... didn't we establish there were no clones being grown at the time? (NOTE: If there were clones being grown, this does not negate the effectiveness of the attack on Mt. Tantiss...)