Why can't the Jedi Council sense the dark side?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JediDundee, Feb 11, 2005.

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  1. JediDundee Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Sorry if this is a stupid question or if this question has been asked before, as I do not read the boards normally but why cannot Yoda or the council sense Darth Sidious/ Chancellor Palpatines true nature..I mean are they stupid..? My thinking is that Chancellor Palpatine that deals with the Jedi is a clone of Darth Sidious, but i read that Sidious/Palpatine are the same person...?...what the heck..I am confused someone please explain..?
  2. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    As Dooku says, the dark side has clouded their vision. Seems like Palpatine is putting a veil over their senses, so that they won't detect him.
    There's also a deleted scene where Yoda and Mace are briefly discussing the prophecy. Mace says that the prophecy is coming true, because the dark side is growing.
    If the dark side is growing, then it makes sense that the Jedi, who are on the light side, have limited vision.
    It's not that they can't sense the dark side, though. The dark side is everywhere, so they truth is, they can't avoid sensing it's presence. But they can't sense what's WITHIN the dark side.



    The dark side is powerful
    /LM
  3. jedi-chaz-windu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2004
    star 1
    if i go to the cinema and find out that palpatine is a clone of sidious i will DISOWN star wars and storm out of the theatre. that in my opinion is complete crap and would be totally ridiculous as part of the plot...
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Don't worry, he isn't.



    Palpatine is Sidious
    /LM
  5. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Its been confirmed nearly a dozen times that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. They are not clones.

    Please allow the clone theory to die a miserable death [face_skull]
  6. ThrawnRocks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2004
    star 6
    Why would they be clones? It'd be a useless part of the story when you can just as esily have them be the same person.


    Palps is probably just using some Dark Side masking technique. Plus as said, the Dark Side is everywhere. Plus when on Degobah, Yoda masked his presence from the Emporer, why can't Palps do the same?
  7. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    As Dooku says, the dark side has clouded their vision. Seems like Palpatine is putting a veil over their senses, so that they won't detect him.
    There's also a deleted scene where Yoda and Mace are briefly discussing the prophecy. Mace says that the prophecy is coming true, because the dark side is growing.
    If the dark side is growing, then it makes sense that the Jedi, who are on the light side, have limited vision.
    It's not that they can't sense the dark side, though. The dark side is everywhere, so they truth is, they can't avoid sensing it's presence. But they can't sense what's WITHIN the dark side.


    This is an excellent and thoughtful analysis.
    I appreciate the thought that went into it.
    It's a solid explanation...in my opinion.
    =D=

  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Wow, thank you :)



    The dark side is everywhere
    /LM
  9. greviousrules Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Obviously, the Dark Side is more powerful.
    If you recall, Yoda said in AOTC, "The Dark Side clouds everything." Now that Anakin has in a sense, joined the dark side in Ep.I because he fears he will never see Shmi again, the DSide has a new recruit.
  10. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
    Please allow the clone theory to die a miserable death

    I'll second that [face_plain]
  11. theBluePhoenix Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2001
    star 3
    if i go to the cinema and find out that palpatine is a clone of sidious i will DISOWN star wars and storm out of the theatre.

    Are you going to stamp your feet and hold your breath too? Let?s be adults here. I personally believe that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. HOWEVER, if that turns out NOT to be the case, then I?m OK with that too. I?m actually hoping for a big surprise like we got in ESB.

    I have not yet seen anyone explain why the Palpatine/Sidious clone theory is so terrible other than saying ?it?s dumb? or ?it?s crap?.
  12. Ker-Soth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2004
    star 3
    Maybe the Sith managed to come up with a trick that allows them to remain un-felt or something during their millenium of hiding. I mean, the dark side has clouded everything, but hey we're talking about the most rotten person who ever set foot on GFFA casually giving orders to the Jedi.
  13. black_saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    The sith that have been in Hidding have made the Darkside CLoud there Vision and it got worse and worse as the years go by leading up to ROTS.
  14. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    Did anyone notice how Palpatine aged a lot from the time of The Phantom Menace to the time of Attack of the Clones? He aged like 25-30 years in ten years! Yikes!

    He's using the dark side constantly to clound the vision of the Jedi. How he's doing it, no one knows. But maybe we'll receive some enlightment on how he's doing it in the next episode. But as he is doing it, it's taking a toll on his body. My guess is that he's using the Force in supernatural ways, yet those ways are unnatural and contrary to the life process and thus it drains life slowly out of him.

    As far as the Jedi, Yoda even admitted that they are totally blind because they couldn't sense this newly created Clone Army.
  15. mfalc_charter_pilot Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Yes, I though that too. In ESB, Yoda says to Luke in reponse to "how will I know the good from the bad" Yoda says" You will KNOW. when you are calm, at peace". So why the bloody hell can Yoda not know that Palpantine is up to no good? Surely Lucas could have written a story which
    made Yoda aware of Palpy, sort of highly suspicious from the outset that he could be stirring things up?

    This begs the question;If the good side of the force is sooooo much more powerful than the dark side, the council should have been on to Master/darth Sidious(which I figured out MUST be Palpantine whilst watching it for the first time)in EP2 at least???

    From what I can see, the dark side is more powerful in Lucas's universe because they roughlessness and violence to acheive power. Sounds like some governments I know...

    Any comments?

  16. mfalc_charter_pilot Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    If the dark side is growing, then it makes sense that the Jedi, who are on the light side, have limited vision.
    It's not that they can't sense the dark side, though. The dark side is everywhere, so they truth is, they can't avoid sensing it's presence. But they can't sense what's WITHIN the dark side.

    ..SO MUCH for the good side being more powerful than the dark side? Lucas has ball'sd things up again...
  17. ThrawnRocks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2004
    star 6
    I have not yet seen anyone explain why the Palpatine/Sidious clone theory is so terrible other than saying ?it?s dumb? or ?it?s crap?.

    Okay, I'm not the best debater, but I'll take a go at this. Firstly just let me get it out of the way and say I think it'd be dumb and crap.

    Now.

    Unless GL is a brilliant mastrmind who's thought of something no one else has, then there's really no plot point in having them be clones. Allthough I could see GL doing it just so he could have the Special Effects of Ian talking to himself. The thihg is it works so much smoother if it's the same person. If they're clones, there really is no reason why. Plus if they're the same person it just shows how much more of a compitant and evil schemer/darksider Palpatine is to be playing both sides of the war, running the role of Supreme Chancellor and Dark Lord of the Sith at the same time, and ultimately setting things up for his ultimate grab for power, all while stying hidden to the entire Jedi Order, and yet he conversis on a regular baisis with the most powerfull Jedi in the Order.
  18. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    LOE described a technique of hiding oneself in the Force ala Vergere so they could be using what she used if you wanna bring EU into it. I think they're hiding themself in the Force regardless though the shroud of the Dark Side.
  19. ClonedEmperor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Vima da Boda also uses a force cloaking technique while on Nar Shadda. And Sidious and Palpatine are the same people. Episode 6. That IS palpatine on the throne. He shoots SITH LIGHTNING from his hands. Only SITH can do that. Kinda obvious.
  20. happydudethe3rd Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2005
    star 1
    I agree with ThrawnRocks on all points. If you're watching the films in order, the reveal that Palpatine has been orchestrating the war and what he really looks like is the giant twist/revelation of this trilogy. I hope. The clones exist to show how one man can essentially flip a switch and turn an army on its former superiors.
  21. Rob_Baajakh Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    This is an interesting question. I believe it has something to do with how they are attuned to the Force. Conservative Jedi, like Yoda (and probably the Jedi Council), are attuned to the unifying Force, which enables them to see into the future, since it makes them mindful of it. Other Jedi, like Qui-Gon Jinn, are/were attuned to the living Force, the here-and-now, which typically the Dark side users do. However, since the Jedi are being clouded, they can't see into the future like they'd like to. Qui-Gon knew the Sith were around because he was attuned to the living Force.
  22. Cereal_Killa Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2005
    "Plus when on Degobah, Yoda masked his presence from the Emporer, why can't Palps do the same?"

    Where did Yoda say that he was masking his presence? I don't seem to remember that. Besides Yoda is lightyears away from Sidious in the OT why would the Emperor go out from planet to planet looking for him?
  23. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    No, the reason Yoda can't be sensed on Dagobah (according to the EU, anyway) is because there's a tree there powerful in the Dark side that sort of "cancels out" his Force signature, or is at least overbearing enough to hide it. If I recall correctly, it's the same place Luke went into for his test against his inner demons (where he failed miserably).

    As for the Jedi in the PT...I always thought it was a combination of Sideous' overbearing force presence (he's even more powerful than Yoda, remember) and the force being out of balance. Hard to see, the future is, when the Force is confused and chaotic.
  24. aussietiger Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    "..SO MUCH for the good side being more powerful than the dark side? Lucas has ball'sd things up again..."

    Maybe I missed it, but where is it ever said that the LS is more powerful than the DS?
    In ESB I think it is, when Yoda and Luke are talking, Luke asks if the dark side is more powerful. Yoda says no, or something similar, but he doesn't say that it's any LESS powerful than the light side.
    Really, neither side is more powerful that the other. But in different ways they are both more powerful than the other.
    The dark side is more powerful in the combat sense. Dark siders become stronger quicker, and can do things that light siders can't [force lightning for example]. They concentrate on battle, on using the force to attack others and gain power.
    The light side is more powerful when it comes to medication/using the force for knowledge, wisdom.
    There can really be no defining of which side is "more powerful" because they serve different purposes.

    Or atleast that's what I've been led to believe.
  25. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    I think that belief stems from a comment by Lucas regarding the power of the dark side. However, I think alot of people misconstrue what he really meant. I always assumed Lucas was pointing to it being "more powerful" due to its nature of exploiting human flaw. It's much easier to allow anger and hate to take over then to fight it down and do the right thing. It's easier to fight when you don't care about anyone but yourself, when you don't have to show mercy. That's the power of the dark side - quicker, faster, seductive. It's an fast way to massive power.

    However, it's not more powerful than the light side, simply easier. In order to be a Jedi, the person must be controlled and at harmony with one's self. They must self-confidant but humble, wise yet ignorant. They must be uniform but timeless, still but ever changing. In other words, they have to be powerful of mind, heart, and character. It takes a strong person to be a Jedi. It takes a weak one to be a Sith.
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