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Why CG?

Discussion in 'Fan Films, Fan Audio & SciFi 3D' started by drippyzeo, Sep 9, 2002.

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  1. drippyzeo

    drippyzeo Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 11, 2002
    I was just wondering why CG ships are so prevalent in fanfilms, as opposed to miniatures. I think at the professional level, scale models still beat out CG for realism at least half the time. Granted, it's a lot easier to blow-up a CG ship as opposed to a miniature, but for most non-combat sequences, wouldn't models suffice? Are there technical issues that would make CG a better choice, other than ease-of-use?
     
  2. JediTAC

    JediTAC Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2000
    Umm .. how about versatility and the sheer freedome to be able to do things in CGI that you could
    NEVER do with minatures.

    And I'm sorry to differ, but CGI can look every bit, if not MORE, realistic than miniatures.
     
  3. WhisperingDeath

    WhisperingDeath Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 25, 2002
    I believe that each tool has its place in the professional world. For example on Geonosis a good deal of the background was miniatures and it looked perfectly real compared to some of the CG backgrounds that looked like a child did them. However, if you wanted to create a battle scene like the ending one in ATOC then CG is better to the extreme in such a situation.

    Just my .02 on the professional world, but as for fan films, that is quite a good question.
     
  4. BrentK7

    BrentK7 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 20, 2000
    CG is easier (some may argue), faster (again some may argue), and cheaper (after buying the software of course). But once you buy it you can blow up as many ships as you want for free.
     
  5. PadawanNick

    PadawanNick Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I would think that there are two main factors: Cost, and .... um .... Cost.

    First, for animated space scenes, models depend on motion controled cameras to look real. This cameras are on robot arms that take a frame of film at exact points. Then the model can be filmed with different lighting conditions (multipass) and the films can be assembled and mixed to exactly mimic the real world. These motion control systems have no amateur equivalent today.

    Second, pratical models cost money and time and effort to build. More if you start blowing 'em up.

    Today, you can download a 3D CGI program and the models to go with it for free. Even if you pay, many good programs cost less than $500. You can animate anyway you want, and blowing things up doesn't cost you anything.

    As to realism...it takes every bit as long (if not longer) to practice and learn how to make a miniature model look real as it does to do the same in most good CGI programs. Much of the amateur CG you see doesn't look real simply because the users are new to CGI and are learning as they go. Anyone who has spent a year or so diving deeply into their CG program of choice is likely to produce images and animations as real as any model.

    Have fun!

    [EDIT: Oh, for AOTC, HUNDREDS of miniature models were used. Mostly for sets and backgrounds. Besides most exteriors (like the diner, mountains and battlefield) many of the interiors like the library, kamino office and tour, and the secret sith hanger on Coruscant were models.]
     
  6. Pixelito

    Pixelito Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    too bad almost the entire movie was bluescreened... lucas is just getting lazy now.
     
  7. Ranka_Jaade

    Ranka_Jaade Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 6, 2001
    Also, most of us do not have the correct equipment to shoot minatures and get the same effect as CG models can.

    After all, Lucas used computer controlled cameras that moved around the model so that he could get the right movement out of it.

    And in Lucas's own words available on the ANH special edition VHS, the computer models are far superior, we pan with them, we can see the pilots in them and we can make them move better than we could ever do before.
     
  8. Pixelito

    Pixelito Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    And in Lucas's own words available on the ANH special edition VHS, the computer models are far superior, we pan with them, we can see the pilots in them and we can make them move better than we could ever do before.

    you trust his judgement? bah!
     
  9. Darth_Gehenna

    Darth_Gehenna Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 2, 2001
    The ships in Starship Troopers are still probably the best ship effects ever, and they're minitures.

    As for the reason why people don't use minitures in FanFilms? You need a motion control rig, a macro lens, and some other fairly costly stuff to actually make it look even decent. You can half-ass your way through CG and get it to look somewhat decent. Plus people can warez 3D software, you can't warez motion control rigs.
     
  10. drippyzeo

    drippyzeo Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 11, 2002
    Alrighty. I have been educated. :(

    I was just curious cuz there's a Republic Cruiser for really cheap at a nearby discount toy store.
     
  11. Jedi2016

    Jedi2016 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 3, 2000
    Gehenna, I don't know if I'd call the Starship Troopers ships "minature".. the Roger Young was like eighteen feet long.. hehe. :D

    But in general, it's simply much easier to use CG, all around. Compositing is easier, animation is waaaaaaaay easier. And in CG, you can change anything you like on the fly.

    And in some cases, the CG models of nowadays are far surpassing the physical models of yesteryear. There's the new ISD model in the WIP section of Sci-Fi 3D.. more detail than any plastic model ISD. There's two new Millenium Falcon CG models I've seen that are also much more detailed than the plastic kits, possibly more detailed than the CG model that John Knoll built for the Special Editions. So CG, even for fanfilms, is definitely catching up to the detail seen in the physical models.
     
  12. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 27, 2001
    Pixelito, your statements boggle the mind. You criticise Lucas, his judgement, and his use of bluescreen when in fact he's doing things exactly the same way you do them.

    "Lucas is dumb and he puts too much bluescreen & CG in his movies. Now leave me alone while I go create my hugely CG Star Wars fanfilm which mostly includes an actor in front of a bluescreen."

    Edit: And I really don't think it's up to Uncle George exactly how much bluescreen is done and what effects are used. I think he tells ILM what he wants and they come up with the best solution.
     
  13. Darth_Gehenna

    Darth_Gehenna Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 2, 2001
    True Jedi, but it is a miniature compared to the real Roger Young. Hehe.
     
  14. Pixelito

    Pixelito Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    foxbatkllr: your false-quotes and misinterpretations boggle the mind.

    "Lucas is dumb and he puts too much bluescreen & CG in his movies. Now leave me alone while I go create my hugely CG Star Wars fanfilm which mostly includes an actor in front of a bluescreen."
    wow, i don't remember saying that. silly me. in fact, i dont remember making a fanfilm with an actor in it.


    when in fact he's doing things exactly the same way you do them.
    nope, the only fanfilm i've ever made was a school project which was entirely CG and contained no actors whatsoever, and no bluscreening. it was a specifically CG project, and the star wars theme wasn't even in the original plan. completely different scenario.



    i'm NOT a hollywood studio, and i have neither the money or the resources to build hollywood sets. personally i feel that lucas has the resources to do many of the environments he uses for real, but he chooses to bluescreen them just because he can (if there's a better reason, i'd LOVE to know). as fanfilm-makers, we don't have the resources to build the interior of a starship or palace. for example: palpatine's office was unneccesarily bluescreened, when it could easily have been a set. the hallway where anakin and padme are attacked by geonosians could have been a set. as you can tell by the Episode I special features, Lucas has direct input as to what is CG and what isn't (referring to the early shot in the making of... where george is marking on storyboards with markers). while this is still early, george still has a LOT of input.

    what i'm saying is that CG is a great tool, but if something can be made for real, it SHOULD be. i'm all for lucas using CG, but when well over 50% of the movie was filmed on blue screen, it starts to take away from the experience.
     
  15. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 27, 2001
    but when well over 50% of the movie was filmed on blue screen, it starts to take away from the experience.

    Only in your mind.
     
  16. Pixelito

    Pixelito Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    yes, i'm the only one in the world who was annoyed by the numerous sub-ILM-par composites.
     
  17. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 27, 2001
    There will be a small minority to complain about ANYTHING. BTW, I sure hope you saw the movie on digital because everything that I thought might be wrong with ILM's work completely disappears on digital. Anakin riding the Shaak looked good on digital. I shared many of these complaints on film. Also, please don't fault GL for being "lazy" if there's something wrong with the effects. Blame ILM. I swear to God, GL gets blamed for everything and credit for nothing.
     
  18. Pixelito

    Pixelito Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    I didn't say he was lazy because of the occasionally sub-ILM CG. I am frustrated that several shots that COULD have been live-action sets were NOT live action sets. it was HIS choice to bluescreen certain things.
     
  19. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 27, 2001
    Could you give me a specific example? Also, again how do you know the situation? How do you know it's his decision? Also, sometimes they need pickup shots so that could easily be an explanation.
     
  20. Pixelito

    Pixelito Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    I did. Palpatine's office.
     
  21. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 27, 2001
    What? Palpatine's office looked like a set to me...what was bluescreened other than the window/background of coruscant? If everything but the desk and carpet was bluescreened then I will give GL and ILM a huge pat on the back for terrific work.
     
  22. Admiral_Ant

    Admiral_Ant Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 6, 2002
    seeing it digital definatly made the differance, I saw it both ways and now it bugs me when I see it non-digital, it looks fake in some spots, but as mentioned above seeing it digital changes everything for the better!
     
  23. sithgoblin3

    sithgoblin3 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 4, 2001
    As has been often said before, the problem with bluescreening anything and everything is that the actors have nothing to work with, and the result is often wooden acting, even from good actors.
     
  24. PadawanNick

    PadawanNick Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Actually, Palpatine's office was a real, fullscale set.

    Have fun.
     
  25. muphicks

    muphicks Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 20, 2001
    Well I agree with the reasons as to why minitures are not really used in fanfilms. Maybe someone somewhere is using them, but I know we're not, specifically for the reasons stated above.

    Also I have to agree with Pixelito, there were scenes in the film that I thought, did this really need to be cg. Maybe it did for technical reasons, I don't know.

    One of my problems with EP2 fx is where they first arive on naboo and you see Anakin and Padme exiting the shuttle/transport whatever :p with R2 in tow.

    The R2 in one of the cuts in these scenes looks really really fake.

    Also the scene where Anakin cuts Padme's pear in half and uses the force to pass it back, this looks fine until Padme goes to take a bite.

    Now there may be more areas that I think look a little odd, but I've only seen this at the cinema once so far. It's not like i've got the dvd (it's out soon :) to go through the film slowly and get really picky. These are scenes that looked odd the very first time I watched them.

    There are many scenes where I would have prefered less cg. But then overall I loved the movie and many of the scenes would probably not have been possible if minitures had been used or real sets.

     
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