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Why couldn't Obi Wan interfere when luke faced vader

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by sithcult_109, Jul 9, 2005.

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  1. sithcult_109

    sithcult_109 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jul 6, 2005
    Does anyone know???
    Its probably a simple answer but i havn't picked it up yet.
     
  2. walrus

    walrus Jedi Youngling star 2

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    May 24, 2005
    Any jedi, as a force ghost cannot phisically interfere in anything. They are a strog force entity, but not in a physical way at all. I think it would be distracting for Luke and coompletely unnecessary, movie-wise, to have Obi Wan around during the Vader/Luke duel.
     
  3. manolo-ryda-5

    manolo-ryda-5 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 1, 2005
    So I see we meet again sithcult. I must say I enjoyed expressing my input on your latest thread 'Alternate ROTJ ending (revised)'. But the truth of the matter is that Obi-Wan wasn't able to interfere when Luke confronted Vader because it was a part of his destiny (as they all knew) ,to face his father. Also, it was needed to be done that way in order to see if Luke would be able to control his emotions and not succumb to the Dark Side of the Force. Remember, seduction must come willingly. One can seduce and draw you to him, but you must take action in the seduction as well in order for it to be complete. If this were not so, then it wouldn't be called seduction. More like just plain greed, or it can be forced upon you. There is a difference.
     
  4. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    I agree with all that, but also I think it would have been stupid for Obi Wan to show up given how much Vader hates him. It would not have helped Luke's situation at all.
     
  5. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

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    Apr 6, 2000
    Perhaps Obi-Wan could have interfered, but since Luke decides to go against his and Yoda's wishes (staying on Dagobah), he must face the consequences of his actions whatever they may be. I'd be inclined to say Force ghosts are not meant to interfere with anything in the living world since it may be changing destiny/fate or whatever, but I think just be existing in spirit form and guiding Luke Obi-Wan is doing that anyway, and the fact that Obi-Wan is actually sitting down on something while talking to Luke in ROTJ surely suggests he can physically touch real-world objects....
     
  6. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 13, 2005
    maybe he has but not visible for us...
     
  7. mr_clark_90

    mr_clark_90 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2005
    Wasn't Obi-wan interfering with destiny or fate or what have you during the attack on the Death Star in ANH?
     
  8. Brandon Rhea

    Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 26, 2004
    Oh, yes! Obviously this is a plot error!!!1!!!

    :p
     
  9. Darth_Juggalo

    Darth_Juggalo Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Luke was in the presence of both Sidious and Vader, aboard the Death Star II. This would have made it very high in the dark side. And scince the force ghost phenomenon apears to be a light side he may not have even been able to appear.
     
  10. brobertsumc

    brobertsumc Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 4, 2005
    Haven't I read something here that the original idea for ROTJ was to have Obi-wan appear to Vader at some point to try and talk him back from the dark side?

    As far as the line at issue in this post, I think Obi-wan might have been capable of doing something physically, otherwise it would have just been stating the obvious to say "I cannot interfere." I think his meaning was that it would be either improper or counterproductive (i.e., because Vader hates him) for him to interfere in Luke's confrontation with Vader.
     
  11. vw_jedi

    vw_jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 18, 2002
    I think it has more to do with Obi Wan not interfering with Luke's destiny as part of the prophecy. Ultimately it has to be Vader who brings balance and perhaps Obi wan realizes that to interfere would in some way upset the chain of events from playing out the way they are meant to.

    Some people also have incorporated the story "Splinter of the Minds Eye" where Obi Wan actually takes control of Luke's body to duel with Vader. Therefore what Obi Wan would mean is that he can't help him in that way again.

    However, I personally find that line of thinking to be too literal.
     
  12. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 1999
    Luke's battle with Vader was more about simply "winning"--the battle was less a physical one and more an emotional one. Luke's true test would be not whether Luke was more skilled than Vader at swinging a lightsaber, but whether he could resist the darkside. If Obi Wan helped Luke, then it would not Luke's battle, and he would not undergo his temptation.

    And then of course there is the technical answer that it is likely that force ghosts cannot physically make contact with the real world and thus it would literally be impossible for Obi Wan to help him (despite the fact that he sits on a log in ROTJ). In fact, in the rough drafts of ROTJ, Obi Wan does indeed appear in the flesh and help Luke fight Vader and the Emperor (along with the ghost of Yoda) but Lucas cut that aspect out because it would be more powerful if Luke faced Vader along and did not have his mentors helping him out.
     
  13. sepharih

    sepharih Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Mar 16, 2005

    And then of course there is the technical answer that it is likely that force ghosts cannot physically make contact with the real world and thus it would literally be impossible for Obi Wan to help him (despite the fact that he sits on a log in ROTJ).


    He does more than that. He pushes a vine out of his way when he's walking toward said log. I don't think they have mass in the literal sense. I think the fact that they are able to bring their physical body into the force itself allows them to retain a connection to the physical world. Thus, Obi-wan sitting on the log and/or pushing the vine out of the way is him using the force to push it out of the way. Moving his body to push it is simply a gesture to maintain the illusion that he is physical. I mean, if they've become one with the force couldn't they still move and/or lift things with the force?
    I agree though that I think it's more just that, having transcended the world, they have a greater understanding of the natural order of things and they are reluctant to interfer unless they have too. Obi-wan telling Luke to use the force was an interferance, but I think it was deemed a necessary one.
     
  14. mr_clark_90

    mr_clark_90 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2005
    If Obi-wan hadn't told Luke to use the force during the trench run, Luke would've had a much better chance of missing, so I think Obi-wan's inteference is a serious one. Also, Vader was in close proximity with Luke when Obi-wan interfered, so technically Luke was facing Vader. Could it be that since Luke wasn't completely learned in the Force yet Obi-wan had to interfere, or is it just that when GL first thought of Star Wars Vader was not yet Luke's father, so the problem we're discussing is due simply to a small plothole?
     
  15. Matt-trooper

    Matt-trooper Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Feb 19, 2005
    Well maybe during the duel when luke and vader were dueling on that balcony , obi wan could've appeared in front of vader and yelled 'BOO!' causing vader to get the fright of his life and trip over the balcony:p
     
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