Clone Wars Why did all of the more powerful national entities seem to side with the CIS?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Those decisions were taken in the years immediately after the end of the CW, but before anyone knew about things like the Death Star project.
  2. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    The Jedi would have been spread just as thinly, if not moreso if they are fighting to defend the Republic without support of a clone army and with only a ragtag group of recruits supplied by systems squabbling over the logistics of providing and supplying for the army. The Jedi Order was so connected to the Republic that they would have fallen together. Any Jedi that slipped through the cracks seem inconsequential since even after Order 66, the Empire still was left to mop up the remnants of the Jedi, they did not all die in Order 66.

    And if the Republic pushes the several thousand Jedi to defend the Republic against millions, if not billions of battle droids with minimal support from an army. They Jedi are either going to die or reject their role which would cause friction between the Republic and Jedi, helping to isolate them.

    The Sith already controlled the galaxy once (per Palpatine's words), or at least the majority of it (the way the EU represents the New Sith Empire), and they did so by conquering the galaxy as a foreign entity without any need of an Order 66, and that was apparently during a time when the Republic did have an army (EU). What hindered the Sith was their infighting amongst themselves (Lucas' explanation).

    If Palpatine overtly led the CIS as a disgruntled leader following the incident on Naboo with a lot of sympathy at his back, he would have a standing army of droids manufactured by the Techno Union; but not ordering a clone army for the Republic, the Republic would be defenseless; the Republic would continue to buckle under the monetary strain of building up its own defenses; The Jedi would be stuck in an unfavorable position; the Republic would have no army or at least be inefficient in providing one (rather than having the first wave of troops paid in full by Plagueis' wealth); and there would not be enough Sith to weaken the CIS by infighting.

    I can't see any downside. And unlike how things actually play out, in which Palpatine has to keep a clone army secret for 10 years, ensure that Order 66 is kept secret, etc. There would be less risk to Palpatine since he wouldn't be keeping as many secrets. Heck, he could openly proclaim himself a Sith Lord since apparently Lucas and Filoni seem to imply that the word means nothing to the vast majority of people (which I personally find ridiculous, if the Sith were tyrants that took over the galaxy in the past).
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Jun 9, 2013
  3. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    You don't know that. As Chancellor, Palpatine was in prime position to place Jedi where he wanted/needed them to be. If he were on the "outside", others would have made those decisions and no way to guarantee that they would be favorable to Palpatine's needs.


    And that was after 3 years of grinding attrition and warfare, wherein the Jedi were manoeuvred into all but exhausting themselves. Better leadership could have seen the Jedi less overextended, and in greater numbers.


    Or the Jedi could have found a united Republic full of volunteers behind them. Remember that much of the politics and bickering, etc that plagued the Republic was Palpatine's doing to begin with. He played a VERY deep game, taking decades to position everything just where he wanted/needed them to be.

    The grand "Sith armies" of old were gone, that Empire dissipated forever. Only 2 remained, per the Rule of Two.

    Oh yes, because invading peaceful worlds with armies of battle droids in an attack of subjugation is such a good way to generate positive press... :rolleyes:


    That is assuming much.


    I can see lots. You assume that things would play out better your way, but a fully roused Jedi order without Palpatine pulliing governmental strings to cripple and whittle away at them would have made taking his pointy little head off Priority Number One on their list of things to do. And they would have been in better condition to do so with a full complement of Jedi to bring to bear as opposed to the exhausted handful of masters that Palpatine beat so easily.

    Seeing as how he was able to basically keep them just fine there obviously wasn't much risk at all.

    Except for those pesky Jedi, as I said. And they would have gone after him en masse.[/quote]
    Last edited by Kev Snowmane, Jun 9, 2013
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  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

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  5. Narutakikun Force Ghost

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    Not an excuse. They knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. They knew what that meant. Educated, cultured people like them would have known who Revan and Malak were, and who Kaan was. They would have known the kind of destruction that always follows when Sith Lords gain power. If it hadn't been a planet-destroying space station, it would have been something just as bad if not worse.

    Study after study shows that the vast majority of Americans don't know what century the Civil War was fought in, who the sides in World War I were, what continent China is in, or who Julius Caesar was. I see no reason why the Republic would be much different.

    But again, we're talking about educated, cultured people like Republic Senators.
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  6. Darth_Arapsis Jedi Knight

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    I don't see them being able to fire up a crowd enough to risk their lives.
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    As far as I know, only Bail knew, thanks to his working with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

    And in The Clone Wars: Wild Space, we find out that knowledge about the Sith is very limited- even Bail didn't know what they actually were, until Padme & Obi-Wan filled him in on some of the details.
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  8. Narutakikun Force Ghost

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    And he... what, kept that rather critical piece of information to himself, and didn't bother sharing it with the rest of the Rebellion? Why precisely would he do that? Wouldn't stuff like "Oh, by the way, the Emperor has Force powers that give him a bunch of supernatural abilities like mindreading and precognition, so you might want to be careful about that" be kind of an important thing to share with one's fellow rebels?

    The EU says a lot of crazy stuff.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Jun 9, 2013
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  9. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    o_O

    You can't use EU sources to support your case, and then dismiss EU sources when they don't support your case. Not if you want your argument to be taken seriously, anyway...
    Last edited by Mia Mesharad, Jun 9, 2013
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  10. Narutakikun Force Ghost

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    Hm? You're not one of those "The Clone Wars is EU" types, are you?

    Anyhow, this is precisely the problem with the EU - it contradicts itself, and is contradicted by "official" canon stories constantly, so it simply can't be held as reliable. This is something I'm sure that Disney will fix.

    As for the idea that knowledge of the Sith is limited, I guess it depends on what you mean by "knowledge". Knowing exact details are something that nobody really would expect from him. But if Bail Organa really didn't know what the Sith were at all, well, then this whole thread leads further and further towards the conclusion that Bail Organa is a blithering idiot. If we accept that the New Sith Wars and the Brotherhood of Darkness really did exist (your argument works both ways - if you accept some of the EU, then you have no reason not to accept all of it), then it was a huge, incredibly destructive galactic conflict that tore the Republic apart for years. For someone who claims to be cultured and educated to not know about them at all is appalling. No, really - that all happened about a thousand years before the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire. Think a thousand years back into our own history, and to what was going on then. Bail Organa not knowing what the Sith were (and how could you know what the New Sith Wars were if you didn't know who the Sith were?) would be the equivalent of a modern United States Senator never having heard of the Crusades. What would we call such a Senator? A blithering idiot.

    Especially because these things have consequences. I'm sure our Senators know what the Crusades were - they just don't understand them. Thus, they really didn't have a firm understanding of how Muslims might be expected to react when a bunch of foreigners who have a different culture, speak a different language, and practice a different religion come to their countries to impose some or all of those ideas on them via military force. We all know how that turned out. So it seems that understanding things that happened a thousand years ago is actually pretty useful for a Senator. If you don't understand history and how it worked, you'll never see the dangers that snuck up on people in the past as they sneak up on you.
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  11. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    Uh, yeah, because...y'know...it is. If it's not a live-action movie, it's EU. Novel, comic, game, TV show―all are considered Expanded Universe under LucasFilm Ltd. official policy.

    But that's not the point. If you're going to count the actions of Revan and Malak, or the Brotherhood of Darkness as valid components of the Star Wars universe―which stem from EU materials like KotOR and Darth Bane/Jedi vs Sith―then you have to equally acknowledge the validity of Wild Space and its own assertions. You can't give a nod to the source that backs up the points you're making, while giving the finger to the source that doesn't, when you're presenting a canon-based argument. I don't even care for Wild Space in the slightest, but those are the facts as they've been given to us.

    What you have to take into consideration is that knowledge of the Sith was being actively suppressed. The Jedi had people hunting down Sith holocrons and scrolls to destroy them. Artifacts that couldn't be immediately destroyed were locked away in impenetrable vaults. Tombs were sealed, temples destroyed, and teachings were buried. For the longest time, being a Sith, claiming to be a Sith, or being associated with anything to do with the Sith in any way was deemed outright illegal by the Republic. The less people knew about the Sith, the less likely a new breed of Sith would emerge. And at the end of the New Sith Wars, the Sith were truly believed to be extinct, a belief seemingly validated by a thousand years of peace and an absence of any threat from Sith claimants. Combined that with the common people's perception that the only thing differentiating a Sith from a Jedi was the color of their lightsaber and an ideological dispute, and it's not that hard to imagine that the Sith would slip from the collective concern of most beings. For an educated man like Bail to be unaware of the Sith is, admittedly, an oddity and I'd prefer Wild Space not have gone that route. But it's also not entirely unreasonable given the active interest in burying the memory of the Sith and obfuscating Sith lore and history.
  12. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

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    star 4
    Exactly.

    @TaradosGon

    I wouldn't say it was split evenly, at least not at the time of AOTC, but it was at risk of becoming so. I'm sure the Republic was still three times the size of the CIS, and was ensured of staying that way so long as Darth Sidious still reigned. But the CIS could have been bigger if they convinced the other ten thousand systems to leave, but I'm convinced the Sith had no intentions of gathering more systems to their cause and only said that to persuade the Corporate Alliances to fund the war.
  13. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    And many of the Seps were just as bad. Why would the Alliance make common cause with those no better than the Empire?
  14. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Apparently you don't know history very well either. The Crusades were a defensive response against militant jihadist Islam that had rolled through the ME and was threatening to roll up the European continent.
  15. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Not true. George himself has said he sees NO difference between TCW tv series and the PT.

    Nothing trumps George.
  16. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    I'm sorry to tell you that Lucas' commentary, while interesting, means effectively nothing in comparison to the official policy of the company that controls Star Wars. LucasFilm Ltd. states that anything outside of the live-action Star Wars films is considered a part of the Expanded Universe, even TCW. Lucas likes the show; so do many people. It doesn't change the fact that under company policy, TCW still is classified as part of the Expanded Universe. It just means Lucas likes the show as much as he does the prequels.
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  17. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

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    Nope. George determines (or did until he sold the company) what is what. His word trumps all. That's the way it was and is.
  18. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    TCW is part of the Expanded Universe, HOWEVER it is also official Cannon. Its higher on the list than games, books, & comics - but still part of the EU.
  19. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    There need not be a "however" in that statement at all. Of course TCW is official canon. Being a part of the Expanded Universe doesn't suddenly make TCW not canon. The Expanded Universe itself, as a series of licensed products officially released under the auspices of the company, is canon, so it's not as though acknowledging TCW as an EU source―which it is―is somehow diminishing its importance.
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  20. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    While I doubt that Jarren meant to insinuate that the EU would not be considered canon, regrettably, many folks in the boards here seem to regard anything outside of the movies as superfluous at best, and non-canon at worst. The existing canon tiers may even bewilder some further. But in any case, the key question of course is whether or not Disney intends to hold the EU sacred for the upcoming ST and spinoff films, or whether they will only consider the six existing films sacrosanct, and nothing more. That is the big question. For now, we can only assume (and hope) that the EU stays intact until further notice. But internal consistency is often difficult to achieve with the frequent clashes between T-canon and C-canon already, so we'll have to see what happens. I for one would like to see TCW and as much C-canon as possible remain.

    I'll end it there lest we risk drifting further off topic, which I have nothing more of value to add.

    P.S. Mia, I could almost swear you are a prolific Wookieepedia contributor based on your penchant for posting links to numerous Wook articles as well as your encyclopedic knowledge of so many bits of SW trivia. Take this as a compliment, of course. :)
  21. Scimitar13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Perhaps Palpatine ordered Dooku to focus more on convincing the larger systems, to join his movement, because having more large systems on their side would make the Separatists into a bigger threat and make it more likely that the Republic would vote for an army.
    Last edited by Scimitar13, Jun 9, 2013
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  22. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    What do the terms "T-Canon" and "C-Canon" stand for?
  23. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    The term "C-Canon"―meaning "Continuity Canon"―is the official label for all canon material that includes novels, comics, video games, and reference works, as well as all information originating therein. The term "T-Canon" stands for "Television Canon," a label for all canon material from The Clone Wars series, including the film and presumably the soon-to-be-released bonus content, as well as the stalled live-action series, and presumably the forthcoming Rebels series.

    Likewise, "G-Canon"―"George Lucas Canon"―is a similar term for information stemming from the six+ films, while "N-Canon" or "Non-Canon" refers to material that is not intended or is no longer a part of official Star Wars continuity. "D-Canon" is a specialty label for all material related to the non-canon by way of being a parody series, Detours, and finally, "S-Canon" is "Secondary Canon," designed for older materials that were created without thought for true continuity.
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  24. Narutakikun Force Ghost

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    Nov 8, 2012
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    Nope. Sorry, that's just not the way things really are. Lucas cared about TCW, made sure he knew what was in it, and personally approved of everything that went on screen. There are multiple stories from a large variety of creatives involved in TCW that attest to this. That just isn't true of stuff like the novels and games.

    So... Lucas's opinion doesn't count in the company that he founded and ran like a North Korea-style dictatorship? Nonsense.

    Well, Mickey does now.

    But anyhow, the problem with George is that he is and always has been wildly inconsistent in his statements. There is no secret sauce there, no code that we need Dan Brown to help crack - Lucas is just inconsistent in what he says about his creation. He's an artist, not a philosopher or a logician. Consistency is not something he cares all that much about, so it's not something we can expect much of from him.

    But again, that works both ways, leading us to the inevitable conclusion that Bail Organa is an historically-illiterate fool - the George W. Bush of the GFFA.

    You can't suppress all knowledge of a huge war that tore the galaxy in half for years. It's just not practical. There isn't a memory hole that big - and certainly not in a place as spread-out, decentralized, and diverse as the GFFA.

    Wait... how can there be a "common people's perception" of something that the common people don't know about?

    Why would Britain and America make common cause with Stalin?

    There was plenty of right and wrong to go around on both sides, both sides took and lost territory, both sides inflicted and endured suffering, both sides played offense and defense, and neither side liked having their lands invaded by the other.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Jun 10, 2013
  25. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    None of this is even remotely relevant to the subject of whether or not TCW stands as a part of the Expanded Universe. Not a single word. TCW is EU by the base, objective definition of the term. The Expanded Universe is licensed Star Wars material outside of the soon-to-be-more-than-six live-action films, whether in the form of literature, television, or games. That's all there is to it. Lucas' involvement and Lucas saying that he really likes it...that's nice, but it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean that TCW suddenly gets to jump ship and be something else. It is what it is, and what it is, is EU. EU that Lucas thinks is pretty great and likes it as much as his own films, but it's still EU because it's not the films. Period. It's really not that hard of a concept to wrap your head around. The only people who seem to have trouble with this concept are the ones who insist that the Expanded Universe isn't canon or some such nonsense, but―oops!―my show can't be non-canon so it has to be something else. It isn't. It's still the EU. And, tada, it's still canon all the same.

    Now, between this and the entire "Sith History Debate," this thread has been hijacked quite thoroughly off-topic, so that'll be all from me in this thread for the foreseeable future, as I've nothing to contribute toward the actual topic.
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